I want everyone to put their thinking caps on for this one! I want us to come up with a bunch of things that we consider to be problems in the industry. Before you start typing away though, the other side of the coin is that you have to present some sort of solution that can be implemented. I'm looking for problems that we can start tackling as a group, so don't say "destructive fishing". Although that is a SERIOUS problem, there's not really much that we as a group can do to change it. Maybe think about things that could be done on the retail or hobbyist level. Let's compile a bunch of ideas, then we'll choose a few to start working on. I want this forum to be able to make a difference, not to be another place for everyone to argue. So let's start being proactive and productive!!
Identifying Problems and Implementing Solutions
- Thread starter MaryHM
- Start date
Not a booklet a book by a well known author. I'm sure Microcosm would sell to an industry group at a discounted rate (kinda like advertising). if an owner is more familiar with a book they are more likely to sell it. Record copanies have done it for years in sending samples out to record stores. The book would change every year depending on advances or maybe the topic would change.
Year 1: Corals
Year 2: Fish
Year 3: Other inverts
Year 4: Corals
Etc
Year 1: Corals
Year 2: Fish
Year 3: Other inverts
Year 4: Corals
Etc
Clarification of the minimal needs and requirements of all marine species. These standards should be issued to every LFS to educate both consumer and dealer. They should include peramiters directly responsible for the well being, sustination and longevity of animals in a captive environment, ie. lighting, water circulation, temp etc. etc.
This should then form the basis for the sale and regulation of animals. You should have to prove that you have the capabilities of meeting the requirements demanded by the animals before purchase. Requirements laid out in black and white at every LFS and wholesaler.
To make it easy you could introduce a star rating system. Equipment could then become regulated and rated according to this system. This could even be done using a sliding scale to match the demands placed of equipment. I.E. a skimmer is rated as *** for 50 gallons, but only ** for say 90 gallons. This would also hopefully eliminate the Skillters and Seaclones of this hobby. Something which i would also place directly responsible for the failure of many newbe reefers, and the death of many animals.
But at then end of the day it all comes down to $$$, whos going to put it out.
This should then form the basis for the sale and regulation of animals. You should have to prove that you have the capabilities of meeting the requirements demanded by the animals before purchase. Requirements laid out in black and white at every LFS and wholesaler.
To make it easy you could introduce a star rating system. Equipment could then become regulated and rated according to this system. This could even be done using a sliding scale to match the demands placed of equipment. I.E. a skimmer is rated as *** for 50 gallons, but only ** for say 90 gallons. This would also hopefully eliminate the Skillters and Seaclones of this hobby. Something which i would also place directly responsible for the failure of many newbe reefers, and the death of many animals.
But at then end of the day it all comes down to $$$, whos going to put it out.
Education of the new marine hobbyist that wants to setup his/her first marine tank -- be it FO or reef -- so that they know the system requirements for various marine organisms BEFORE they get started. This should be done by the LFS IMHO.
Solution: Have retailer recommend an inexpensive marine aquarium book for the new customer to read and comprehend before they make their first purchase. Cost justification would be the book is only, say $25, and if you're going to setup the tank right the first time, it's gonna cost you at least a couple hundred dollars (if not over a thousand) so why not read up on how to do it right the first time so you don't spend more money in the long run on both equipment and livestock? Sees logical to me.
Also recommend various URL's for the newbie to read thru as well, such as AF, AA, Aquarium.Net, Reefs.org/library, etc., on a flyer that the customer can pick up at the front counter or is available on the retailers website.
Specific examples: Sylvania Tropicals in Ohio (who got me into reefkeeping back in Dec 1999) strongly cautioned me to read a good general purpose marine aquarium setup kind of book before he started to sell to me. He recommended that I read from cover to cover The New Marine Aquarium : Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide by Michael S. Paletta. The owner knew that I was a newbie and that I would appreciate knowing what I'm getting myself into and that he could talk much more intelligently to me once I understood the basics of setting up the aquarium. This seemed like a good business practice to me as it doesn't waste the retailers time explaining what a skimmer is, what SG to mix my salt up to, etc. Saves him time and it saves the customer time and educates the customer at the same time. I don't know if I ever thanked the owner for steering me this route. If not, THANKS!
Another option: Marine Ecosystems in NC, in the back of their store, has a diverse collection of all the current marine books as a "library" of sorts for the customers to read. Customers can come in and go back to the library and read up on anything they wanted to know. They had Veron's Corals of the World all the way down to beginner reading. There was at least 3 shelves of reference materials. They had a couple of comfy old recliners back there as well so someone could relax while they read. It educated the customer and it also, IMHO, made the customer more of a repeat customer as they were in there to learn.
Limitations of this recommendation: is completely dependent on the LFS to implement this with their customers.
Overall, I think this would save a lot of time for both the retailer AND the customer in the long run not to mention the countless fish and other animals lives. The problem is that many LFS' don't even understand the status of the technology available for the marine aquarium.
My $0.02.
Shane
liquid on #reefs
Solution: Have retailer recommend an inexpensive marine aquarium book for the new customer to read and comprehend before they make their first purchase. Cost justification would be the book is only, say $25, and if you're going to setup the tank right the first time, it's gonna cost you at least a couple hundred dollars (if not over a thousand) so why not read up on how to do it right the first time so you don't spend more money in the long run on both equipment and livestock? Sees logical to me.
Specific examples: Sylvania Tropicals in Ohio (who got me into reefkeeping back in Dec 1999) strongly cautioned me to read a good general purpose marine aquarium setup kind of book before he started to sell to me. He recommended that I read from cover to cover The New Marine Aquarium : Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide by Michael S. Paletta. The owner knew that I was a newbie and that I would appreciate knowing what I'm getting myself into and that he could talk much more intelligently to me once I understood the basics of setting up the aquarium. This seemed like a good business practice to me as it doesn't waste the retailers time explaining what a skimmer is, what SG to mix my salt up to, etc. Saves him time and it saves the customer time and educates the customer at the same time. I don't know if I ever thanked the owner for steering me this route. If not, THANKS!
Another option: Marine Ecosystems in NC, in the back of their store, has a diverse collection of all the current marine books as a "library" of sorts for the customers to read. Customers can come in and go back to the library and read up on anything they wanted to know. They had Veron's Corals of the World all the way down to beginner reading. There was at least 3 shelves of reference materials. They had a couple of comfy old recliners back there as well so someone could relax while they read. It educated the customer and it also, IMHO, made the customer more of a repeat customer as they were in there to learn.
Limitations of this recommendation: is completely dependent on the LFS to implement this with their customers.
Overall, I think this would save a lot of time for both the retailer AND the customer in the long run not to mention the countless fish and other animals lives. The problem is that many LFS' don't even understand the status of the technology available for the marine aquarium.
My $0.02.
Shane
liquid on #reefs
Shane: Tullock wrote a book called "your 1st marine aquarium" that is published by barron's. It's basically a "Nat. reef aquariums lite". Goes thru the whole live rock bit etc.. retails for 6.99, and we try to sell it to everyone who asks how difficult sw is, as well as people who come in looking for damsels to cycle their new petco setup. Sometimes even that 25 dollar book is a tough sell, but almost everyone will spend 7 bucks and that book has saved alot of crappy tanks IME.
I must intersect at this point and just tell you all of my LFS expirience when recomending books.
Its allways the same, they come in, dont know jack and expect you to tell them how to do it and then when you tell them what equipment to buy they suggest something comepletely inadequate and say "its ok ill just go for one of these for now". Its usually at this point that i loose interest and say "i think it would be a good idea if you bought a book", to which the reply is "no, its ok, ill just waste my money on this useless crap and come back tomorrow and expect you to sell me fish".
What we need is a law, a bible of hard fast parameters and the inhabitants that can be supported whilst achiving those parameters.
Its allways the same, they come in, dont know jack and expect you to tell them how to do it and then when you tell them what equipment to buy they suggest something comepletely inadequate and say "its ok ill just go for one of these for now". Its usually at this point that i loose interest and say "i think it would be a good idea if you bought a book", to which the reply is "no, its ok, ill just waste my money on this useless crap and come back tomorrow and expect you to sell me fish".
What we need is a law, a bible of hard fast parameters and the inhabitants that can be supported whilst achiving those parameters.
Number one probem by far
The biggest problem is the importation,wholesale and retail of species of coral and fish which stand very little chance of survival.
The solution is to have an organization or body politic, with the teeth to enforce a ban on these critters.
2.
Another problem is the deceit in the industry.
LFS continue to sell newbies wet/dry filters and fluval **** (can I say that){I guess I can't} when everyone knows that technology is history.
It is fair game to upsell lighting and all the other gadgets but to be deceitful about the basics is almost criminal.
The solution is for industry to have the courage to say that the sale of such equipment for marine reef purposes is unethical practice. In this way vendors of the equipment would drop that line of equipment.
3.
Ditto for medication: Some work for some and not for others and I am not talking about these. Some have no chance of working; don't work and we all know it.
4.
I have read many times on this and other forums of reputable vendors of pods and rock selling same with VISIBLE evidence of one of flatworms, anenome or aptasia. We have the right NOT to expect that contamination. The solution is that complaints of that nature should be investigated by the above organizations and if substantiated sale prohibited. In that way these vendors will take steps to clean up their act before the reef cops step in.
5. Ignorant LFS. Solution: Licence them. They should have to pass a test.
6. The lack of financial support for the hobby:
With the millions we spend (add up your share fellas)we can't even afford to hold MACNA in Dallas. Cough up industry! I bet you even have trouble with the bucks with MAC and MACNA eh Mary?
It's late sorry to go on.
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
The biggest problem is the importation,wholesale and retail of species of coral and fish which stand very little chance of survival.
The solution is to have an organization or body politic, with the teeth to enforce a ban on these critters.
2.
Another problem is the deceit in the industry.
LFS continue to sell newbies wet/dry filters and fluval **** (can I say that){I guess I can't} when everyone knows that technology is history.
It is fair game to upsell lighting and all the other gadgets but to be deceitful about the basics is almost criminal.
The solution is for industry to have the courage to say that the sale of such equipment for marine reef purposes is unethical practice. In this way vendors of the equipment would drop that line of equipment.
3.
Ditto for medication: Some work for some and not for others and I am not talking about these. Some have no chance of working; don't work and we all know it.
4.
I have read many times on this and other forums of reputable vendors of pods and rock selling same with VISIBLE evidence of one of flatworms, anenome or aptasia. We have the right NOT to expect that contamination. The solution is that complaints of that nature should be investigated by the above organizations and if substantiated sale prohibited. In that way these vendors will take steps to clean up their act before the reef cops step in.
5. Ignorant LFS. Solution: Licence them. They should have to pass a test.
6. The lack of financial support for the hobby:
With the millions we spend (add up your share fellas)we can't even afford to hold MACNA in Dallas. Cough up industry! I bet you even have trouble with the bucks with MAC and MACNA eh Mary?
It's late sorry to go on.
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
There is not a thing in the world wrong with a wet/dry for a FO tank. I've also used a canister.
There are a lot of ways to keep SW fish. Now if you are talking reef systems, there's another whole thing of course.
The biggest problem I can focus on locally is that most LFS do not have access to the internet. And obviously, the youngsters working there cannot afford it.
I think LFS should be on mailing lists of information that spreads across the net. That is vague, and it is late. All I know is from what I have seen, they need an inflow of information, as they don't always know where to go looking.
There are a lot of ways to keep SW fish. Now if you are talking reef systems, there's another whole thing of course.
The biggest problem I can focus on locally is that most LFS do not have access to the internet. And obviously, the youngsters working there cannot afford it.
I think LFS should be on mailing lists of information that spreads across the net. That is vague, and it is late. All I know is from what I have seen, they need an inflow of information, as they don't always know where to go looking.
Naesco wrote:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>4. I have read many times on this and other forums of reputable vendors of pods and rock selling same with VISIBLE evidence of one of flatworms, anenome or aptasia. We have the right NOT to expect that contamination. The solution is that complaints of that nature should be investigated by the above organizations and if substantiated sale prohibited. In that way these vendors will take steps to clean up their act before the reef cops step in.
<hr></blockquote>
Let's see...you want wild rock, but you want none of what you deem "nuisance life" that come with wild rock that's common on all reefs? Solution: don't get wild rock!
I've got some Aragocrete in my garage I can sell you for $3/lb...
Let's say you want your rock cleaned of nuisance Aiptasia and pods. The solution there is that the LFS needs to have a holding tank with either Berghia sp nudi's and/or a Copperband Butterfly to chew off the Aiptasia. Isopods? Well, good luck there.
Off the top of my head, I don't know of any species specific predators for that particular pod. I guess you could throw a Pseudochromis sp in there or something to get rid of them, but also expect all your other pod and bristleworm life to be eaten as well. Also, what about Pyramellid (sp?) snails that irritate clams? I think you're asking a lot here for the LFS to clean off all their rock 100% of all the "bad" life. If the LFS goes this route, expect your cost of live rock to increase.
IMHO, if you want good live rock, you should expect that you're also going to get some nuisance stuff with all the good stuff you get from your rock. This is part of the price of having a cool looking reef.
I will also say this in regards to setting up a reeftank: there's more than one way to skin a cat. I've seen some very nice reef tanks setup with wet/dry's, fluval canister filters, etc. Each setup has it's own set of problems and takes a different mentality to run, but it can be done with no adverse effects to the inhabitants. If you have a wet/dry, add some macroalgae to a refugium on the system to suck up the nitrates. Heck, what do you think the Eco-System Miracle Mud setup is anyhow?
What you need to focus on are the parameters that your livestock need to thrive: salinity, temperature, light, oxygen saturation, calcium, alkalinity, etc. As long as those things are provided for properly it doesn't matter how your tank is setup. You can do this with UGF's, W/D's, skimmerless, ATS, Berlin, DSB/Berlin, etc. It just takes a different set of procedures to get the end result is all. I seem to remember Borneman echoing this same thought on Reefkeepers a couple years ago... Personally, I ascribe to the DSB/skimmer method myself but I'm certainly open to other methodologies.
I hope you don't feel that I'm flaming you as I'm not, I just find it interesting...
Shane
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>4. I have read many times on this and other forums of reputable vendors of pods and rock selling same with VISIBLE evidence of one of flatworms, anenome or aptasia. We have the right NOT to expect that contamination. The solution is that complaints of that nature should be investigated by the above organizations and if substantiated sale prohibited. In that way these vendors will take steps to clean up their act before the reef cops step in.
<hr></blockquote>
Let's see...you want wild rock, but you want none of what you deem "nuisance life" that come with wild rock that's common on all reefs? Solution: don't get wild rock!
Let's say you want your rock cleaned of nuisance Aiptasia and pods. The solution there is that the LFS needs to have a holding tank with either Berghia sp nudi's and/or a Copperband Butterfly to chew off the Aiptasia. Isopods? Well, good luck there.
IMHO, if you want good live rock, you should expect that you're also going to get some nuisance stuff with all the good stuff you get from your rock. This is part of the price of having a cool looking reef.
I will also say this in regards to setting up a reeftank: there's more than one way to skin a cat. I've seen some very nice reef tanks setup with wet/dry's, fluval canister filters, etc. Each setup has it's own set of problems and takes a different mentality to run, but it can be done with no adverse effects to the inhabitants. If you have a wet/dry, add some macroalgae to a refugium on the system to suck up the nitrates. Heck, what do you think the Eco-System Miracle Mud setup is anyhow?
I hope you don't feel that I'm flaming you as I'm not, I just find it interesting...
Shane
Shane thank you for your post.
Some people continue to use a wet/dry probably because they had one from their fish days.
No one in their right mind would buy one today for reefs unless they were told by thr LFS that is what they needed.
According to some posts, one of the well known pod sellers is selling pods with visible flatworms.
One well known net vendor is selling frags with visible aptasia on the rock fragment.
I said, but I didn't mean live rock as it would be very difficult to control.
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
Some people continue to use a wet/dry probably because they had one from their fish days.
No one in their right mind would buy one today for reefs unless they were told by thr LFS that is what they needed.
According to some posts, one of the well known pod sellers is selling pods with visible flatworms.
One well known net vendor is selling frags with visible aptasia on the rock fragment.
I said, but I didn't mean live rock as it would be very difficult to control.
[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
I for one don't see much hope in allowing the majority of LFSs to police themselves. If it is offered and they can sell it, then they will buy it, I find it as simple as that. IMO the supply must be regulated at the collection point or maybe the wholesale level. I think Mary is reputable but I have a feeling she is in the vast minority. I do however feel that there is some hope at this level but have 0% confidence in LFSs integrity. The LFS people who post to this forum are not who I am speeking about here, they have shown me that they are ethical. Unfortunatley, and I am quite sure they would agree with me, they are not the norm.
To sum up my opinion, I have real doubts that any type of voluntary program will work at any level. What ever regulations are implemented in the future will have to be mandated.
Steve
To sum up my opinion, I have real doubts that any type of voluntary program will work at any level. What ever regulations are implemented in the future will have to be mandated.
Steve
Industry willnot clean up its act as history demonstrates.
Chief among them are chains such as petco that have stores staffed with min wage employees who couldnt care less, I would offer the petco stores anywhere as examples.
What Mary started with 'good lists' and 'bad lists' is a cure for one of the extreme problems,
that is bringing in species that dont have a snowballs chance in hell of surviving.
I see education of the aquarists as the next major problem, and I think a step in that direction is the hobby magazines taking a major proactive step in that direction in stressing what good/responsible dealers will tell the customer as against what the bad ones will and keep on stressing it. Just keep telling the consumers over and over again, many will get the idea, of course the bad stores wont carry the mags, but, thats not all bad and the good ones plus subscriptions would hopefully make up the difference.
Ultimately, on the production end I would like to seee ALL of the retail livestock sold captive bred and produced. This alone would eliminate many of the mortalities now suffered by both the retailers and hobbyists.
So, 3 suggestions and 3 solutions.
jake
Chief among them are chains such as petco that have stores staffed with min wage employees who couldnt care less, I would offer the petco stores anywhere as examples.
What Mary started with 'good lists' and 'bad lists' is a cure for one of the extreme problems,
that is bringing in species that dont have a snowballs chance in hell of surviving.
I see education of the aquarists as the next major problem, and I think a step in that direction is the hobby magazines taking a major proactive step in that direction in stressing what good/responsible dealers will tell the customer as against what the bad ones will and keep on stressing it. Just keep telling the consumers over and over again, many will get the idea, of course the bad stores wont carry the mags, but, thats not all bad and the good ones plus subscriptions would hopefully make up the difference.
Ultimately, on the production end I would like to seee ALL of the retail livestock sold captive bred and produced. This alone would eliminate many of the mortalities now suffered by both the retailers and hobbyists.
So, 3 suggestions and 3 solutions.
jake
The only way to solve this is "Buyer beware."
It is the responsibility of the consumer to know what they are buying. How many people buy a car without knowing how to drive?? But plenty of people will buy fish tanks or any other animal for that matter knowing very little about it. I for one am tired of the industry being blamed for all of the mistakes of the consumer. Sure there are some unethical (in our eyes) LFS shops around. But they would not exist of people knew what they were buying ahead of time. Those people thrive off of impulse purchases. But what does unethical really mean?? Does selling someone a wet dry or a fluval make them unethical? Does not advocating Deep Sand Bed technology make a shop unethical? If all LFS shops don't exactly agree on the specifics of how to set up and a maintain a tank does that make them unethical??
Bottom line solution (IMHO)
1. Ban or put quotas on all animals that are not currently being collected in a sustainable manner. Any thing else is fair game as long as the collection can be done with a minmal impact on the environment.
2. Publish the list of impossible species and disseminate it to all LFS, wholesale and collection outlets. The focus of the list should not be on a "it's cruel to keep these guys because they don't live long" theme, but rather "you won't make nearly as much money on this as you will XXXXX". This is a business. Which unfortunately means that a cruelty to animals argument won't get very far.
This in my opinion is about as far as the whole issue will get. As I have said before, there are two ways to look at the issue, from a natural resources point of view (we are harvesting the ocean in a sustainable manner), and from a cruelty to animals point of view (let's keep everyhing as humanely as possible). If we go the cruelty route it gets dangerous as their are plenty of people who think the entire hobby is cruel. It's hard to argue with the fact that these critters wouldn't be happier back in the ocean than in our little glass boxes. Just look at all the heated arguments on how big is big enough?? Which would a tang prefer? 55 gallon of water?? 180 gallon of water?? or the entire ocean??
This needs to be handed over to the Department of Natural Resources and governed that way. The exact same way freshwater fish, reptiles, small animals, and all other pets are. The DNR draws up the approved lists, the Department of Agriculture enforces it.
One final note, we are talking about fish here. There aren't many other animals kept as pets in the United States that can be purchased at the Pet Store and the Grocery Store.
Glenn
It is the responsibility of the consumer to know what they are buying. How many people buy a car without knowing how to drive?? But plenty of people will buy fish tanks or any other animal for that matter knowing very little about it. I for one am tired of the industry being blamed for all of the mistakes of the consumer. Sure there are some unethical (in our eyes) LFS shops around. But they would not exist of people knew what they were buying ahead of time. Those people thrive off of impulse purchases. But what does unethical really mean?? Does selling someone a wet dry or a fluval make them unethical? Does not advocating Deep Sand Bed technology make a shop unethical? If all LFS shops don't exactly agree on the specifics of how to set up and a maintain a tank does that make them unethical??
Bottom line solution (IMHO)
1. Ban or put quotas on all animals that are not currently being collected in a sustainable manner. Any thing else is fair game as long as the collection can be done with a minmal impact on the environment.
2. Publish the list of impossible species and disseminate it to all LFS, wholesale and collection outlets. The focus of the list should not be on a "it's cruel to keep these guys because they don't live long" theme, but rather "you won't make nearly as much money on this as you will XXXXX". This is a business. Which unfortunately means that a cruelty to animals argument won't get very far.
This in my opinion is about as far as the whole issue will get. As I have said before, there are two ways to look at the issue, from a natural resources point of view (we are harvesting the ocean in a sustainable manner), and from a cruelty to animals point of view (let's keep everyhing as humanely as possible). If we go the cruelty route it gets dangerous as their are plenty of people who think the entire hobby is cruel. It's hard to argue with the fact that these critters wouldn't be happier back in the ocean than in our little glass boxes. Just look at all the heated arguments on how big is big enough?? Which would a tang prefer? 55 gallon of water?? 180 gallon of water?? or the entire ocean??
This needs to be handed over to the Department of Natural Resources and governed that way. The exact same way freshwater fish, reptiles, small animals, and all other pets are. The DNR draws up the approved lists, the Department of Agriculture enforces it.
One final note, we are talking about fish here. There aren't many other animals kept as pets in the United States that can be purchased at the Pet Store and the Grocery Store.
Glenn
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