What do you guys think is the education level of people below the retail level. I know the retail level as a whole is very sketchy on their husbandry techniques. I would venture to guess that the percentage of educated individules in the tranship/wholesale level is pretty low and even lower as you get closer to the actual collection.
Education Level of Non-retail establishments
- Thread starter Bill2
- Start date
Speaking for my own education as an importer/wholesaler...
I have a degree in Marine Biology. I've owned a retail shop and been in the industry for 13+ years. I do everything I can to keep up with the new advances in reefkeeping via the internet. I think I am the serious exception to the rule.
I have a degree in Marine Biology. I've owned a retail shop and been in the industry for 13+ years. I do everything I can to keep up with the new advances in reefkeeping via the internet. I think I am the serious exception to the rule.
The educational level is relevant in finding out/determining what educational approach to the problems of the industry are appropriate. And the problems are rampant to the point of my perspective that I think the industry isnt too far away from self destructing for failing to deal with its problems.
The ONLY solutions that I see that are workable all fall within the category of education.
The level of 'migrant laborer' on the collection level is close, although in actuality its more of an uneducated tradesman of a fisherman, who knows how to collect using traditional methods and whose world view is quite limited. Thats the situation that I saw in the Philippines.
I dont know the why of the hostility that I perceive against the poster, it doesnt seem appropriate to this forum.
The ONLY solutions that I see that are workable all fall within the category of education.
The level of 'migrant laborer' on the collection level is close, although in actuality its more of an uneducated tradesman of a fisherman, who knows how to collect using traditional methods and whose world view is quite limited. Thats the situation that I saw in the Philippines.
I dont know the why of the hostility that I perceive against the poster, it doesnt seem appropriate to this forum.
Well, fwiw, I took it a little on the "high and mighty" side as well.
It seems that America's answer to everything is to "educate" those poor disadvantaged third world nations. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about collectors.
But on the other hand, WE are the demand for aquarium fish and corals. We are responsible. We can't lay the blame off on others because they are not educated.
Perhaps it is US, the hobbyists that need the education.
I of course welcome oposing points of view...
Cheers
James
It seems that America's answer to everything is to "educate" those poor disadvantaged third world nations. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about collectors.
But on the other hand, WE are the demand for aquarium fish and corals. We are responsible. We can't lay the blame off on others because they are not educated.
Perhaps it is US, the hobbyists that need the education.
I of course welcome oposing points of view...
Cheers
James
Most of the collectors are less schooled then we hobbists, yet We Americans might be more ignorant?
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Posted by James:
Perhaps it is US, the hobbyists that need the education.
Well thats true, supply and demand. But even if the hobbyist is educated that dosen't mean the animals will be collected and shipped in an appropriate manner. I feel that Glenns pine straw analogy is right on.
Steve
Perhaps it is US, the hobbyists that need the education.
Well thats true, supply and demand. But even if the hobbyist is educated that dosen't mean the animals will be collected and shipped in an appropriate manner. I feel that Glenns pine straw analogy is right on.
Steve
Naesco
why should any retail people be offended?
The title of the thread is 'Education Level of NON-retail establishments'.
It seems to be a consensus that solutions to the industry problems lay through education, knowing WHO is to be addressed seems pretty basic to me.
I still maintain the answer is in making each level along the chain to see that stocking the species responsibly according to livability is good business and it can be made good business through education along each step of the way.And that stocking species that wont live is bad business and irresponsible.
The question of sustainability is relevent only as pertains to possible CITES restrictions which is entirely plausible in the near future.
Moorish Idols are super plentiful in the Philippines, you see them in heavy numbers in every harbor looking for ship detritus, that doesnt make them a good item for import. How many hobbyists do we see 'burning out' continually when their expensive critters die? Who is it who posts here with a signature block "my wife hates my hobby"? I wonder why? $$$$$ that arenot in other budgets is the most probable reason.
Sustainability is a separate issue and liveability/suitability are an entirely different
area.
Education all along the chain is what is needed or the problems will continue and the industry will find itself regulated because it wouldnt do it. You already have a situation in which several major national orgaizations are trying to get US bans on imported marines, and, to get restrictions on interstate movement of marines.
When I first saw the topic of this section I thought there was some real positive possibilities
but after being here for a few weeks I no longer see that. "I want what I want when I want it" rules.
jake
why should any retail people be offended?
The title of the thread is 'Education Level of NON-retail establishments'.
It seems to be a consensus that solutions to the industry problems lay through education, knowing WHO is to be addressed seems pretty basic to me.
I still maintain the answer is in making each level along the chain to see that stocking the species responsibly according to livability is good business and it can be made good business through education along each step of the way.And that stocking species that wont live is bad business and irresponsible.
The question of sustainability is relevent only as pertains to possible CITES restrictions which is entirely plausible in the near future.
Moorish Idols are super plentiful in the Philippines, you see them in heavy numbers in every harbor looking for ship detritus, that doesnt make them a good item for import. How many hobbyists do we see 'burning out' continually when their expensive critters die? Who is it who posts here with a signature block "my wife hates my hobby"? I wonder why? $$$$$ that arenot in other budgets is the most probable reason.
Sustainability is a separate issue and liveability/suitability are an entirely different
area.
Education all along the chain is what is needed or the problems will continue and the industry will find itself regulated because it wouldnt do it. You already have a situation in which several major national orgaizations are trying to get US bans on imported marines, and, to get restrictions on interstate movement of marines.
When I first saw the topic of this section I thought there was some real positive possibilities
but after being here for a few weeks I no longer see that. "I want what I want when I want it" rules.
jake
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> I still maintain the answer is in making each level along the chain to see that stocking the species responsibly according to livability is good business and it can be made good business through education along each step of the way.And that stocking species that wont live is bad business and irresponsible.
<hr></blockquote>
Perfect.
<hr></blockquote>
Perfect.
High and mighty?
Guys it was only a question and my thoughts on it. I did not offer a solution.
Every level of the chain of custody needs to have some basic education of these animals. It's not like when the fish is collected it is put in the bag and then whisked off to the airport. Once it lands it is whisked off to another plane and then off to the retailer. Once it lands there it is sold immediatly to the end user. I would guess on avg it takes 10 days to 2 weeks from collection to end user and probalby spent equally among the different stages.
I've been preaching education on all levels. Please look at the post on Identifying Problems and Implementing Solutions I recommending giving a FREE book to each of the LFS that join one of the industry groups.
Guys it was only a question and my thoughts on it. I did not offer a solution.
Every level of the chain of custody needs to have some basic education of these animals. It's not like when the fish is collected it is put in the bag and then whisked off to the airport. Once it lands it is whisked off to another plane and then off to the retailer. Once it lands there it is sold immediatly to the end user. I would guess on avg it takes 10 days to 2 weeks from collection to end user and probalby spent equally among the different stages.
I've been preaching education on all levels. Please look at the post on Identifying Problems and Implementing Solutions I recommending giving a FREE book to each of the LFS that join one of the industry groups.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jamesw:
<strong>It seems that America's answer to everything is to "educate" those poor disadvantaged third world nations. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about collectors.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude James come on bud. When did the wholesale and tranship people leave the US?
I stated below the retail level. That means below the retail level. Inside and outside the U.S. It means everyone BELOW the retail level. Simple
<strong>It seems that America's answer to everything is to "educate" those poor disadvantaged third world nations. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about collectors.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude James come on bud. When did the wholesale and tranship people leave the US?
I stated below the retail level. That means below the retail level. Inside and outside the U.S. It means everyone BELOW the retail level. Simple
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MaryHM:
<strong>Speaking for my own education as an importer/wholesaler...
I have a degree in Marine Biology. I've owned a retail shop and been in the industry for 13+ years. I do everything I can to keep up with the new advances in reefkeeping via the internet. I think I am the serious exception to the rule.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And your next employee with be siimilar in background? Doubt it.
<strong>Speaking for my own education as an importer/wholesaler...
I have a degree in Marine Biology. I've owned a retail shop and been in the industry for 13+ years. I do everything I can to keep up with the new advances in reefkeeping via the internet. I think I am the serious exception to the rule.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And your next employee with be siimilar in background? Doubt it.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rover:
<strong>I have lots of pine straw in my back yard. I don't have to know anything about pinetrees or forestry to collect it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But you aren't sending those pine needles to me for my hobby and I'm not trying to grow pine trees from those needles.
<strong>I have lots of pine straw in my back yard. I don't have to know anything about pinetrees or forestry to collect it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But you aren't sending those pine needles to me for my hobby and I'm not trying to grow pine trees from those needles.
Petophile hands out valium to the board, and thinks of a way to keep from offending anyone.
In the United States we have a little thing called the Constitution. This little document protects freedoms that some may find offensive and/or immoral. It protects our right to enslave helpless little water loving organisms. It also protects businesses the right to supply us with these creatures and the tools needed to keep them in bondage. If you want to become an activist against the cruelty that exists within this plague we call the "fish trade", the Constitution protects that right. It even protects the freedom to be a hypocritical (fish/reef) slave owner and an activist at the same time! We live in a wonderful nation! The answer -> buy from slave traders who are nicer, who know their stuff, who KNOW THEIR STUFF without showing off a little signed piece of paper to prove it, who have good prices, and watch over their 'migrant, mexican, canadian, non american, poor white american, hobby enthusiasts, females, handicapped, professors, members of varying religions, and of course, gay' workers to make sure they don't screw up and mistreat our water-living slave friends. Did I miss anyone?
Only you can protect yourself from whatever it is your trying to protect yourself from. We can't change the world, but we can scream really really loud and go rip open the rat cages of these mean businesses (and then enjoy our padded cell, or one with bars). Another option would be to move to a more strict country like, say Turkey, but I don't know if aquatics are allowed there. By the way, illegal mexicans make the best authentic mexican food on the planet (I worked at a mexican restaurant), I love the guys/and oh, gals. They are hard workers, can be trusted just as much as the next guy, and are not indoctrinated in our political correctness cult. Mmmm, real tamales...
Since I haven't made any comprehendable point yet, I'll summarize my original intended thought. Buy from those whose values you agree with, and change when necessary. Most of the people in this business are not marine biologists, like me*, so do the best you can. The weaklings will weed out, and newer smarter businesses will arrive. Also, the paranoia about the hobby coming to an end is bogus. Use your head, our govenment can't even win a war on drugs let alone a war on stupidity in the fish biz. Oh yeah, don't chastise the moderators with a self rightious, I'm better than you, "I can't believe you as a moderator could..blhblhblh.", attitude. Indirectly, maybe : ). Do the research yourself and don't expect that 16year old migrant worker to give you the advice your seeking. Freaking common sense. This rant was produced during a boring superbowl game. U2 was pretty cool though.
*I just need to find someone to sign the degree I just printed out on my personal computer, a lovely Imac. You see, I became a marine biologist from months of study at Barnes and Noble, trial and error, DIY projects (based on the latest technology of course), and swimming lessons. I, one day, will be an extremely valuable resource because I taught myself and might have even petted a dolphin at sea world. I will, however, be missing that link between greek philosophy and fish care...
UGhh, and I didn't call anyone Hitler, amazing.
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