• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

horge

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This may be my last post on this Forum, and likely this whole Board.
Whatever the TOS on Reefs.org are, I do not care for having my posts "article-ized" (in toto and with great length involved) without so much as a polite heads-up. I do however want to leave on a constructive and informative note, so here now, my opinion and experience, for whatever they are worth, with a gentleman's request that this NOT be appended to anyone's article


***


Foreword:
I am herewith not trying to prove anyone wrong, nor prove anyone right, but merely (re)opening another line of thought that it might be good to consider and discuss. Discussion is, after all, an honorable alternative to the name-calling, willful misrepresentation and disregard for basic courtesy that blights this Forum. Here goes:

Cyanide, the Philippines, and JMHE.

I. Personal Experience
II. Cyanide Use & Consequences
III. Alternative Methods and Failure
IV. Proposal
V. Conclusion


I. Personal Experience
It is always good to know the context in which information is being offered.
I am a private citizen of the Republic of the Philippines. Being Filipino alone does not a valid observer of the marine environment make. Indeed, many Filipinos have neither the time nor means to experience --and above all appreciate-- the marine bounty their country is blessed with.

By happy circumstance, I had the free time, the resources, and the desire to immerse myself (literally and figuratively) in the subject, and have done so for over three decades. I got my first glimpses of our marine wealth BEFORE it began to deteriorate; and deteriorate it did, in no small part due to commercial collection of aquarium ornamentals. I became an activist and contributed both time and resources under many names to many an organization, and was invariably rewarded with frustration over the politicking involved.

From the mid-80's to the mid-90's I got first hand exposure to the practice of cyanide fishing in the marine ornamental trade. Over time, my face was perhaps becoming too familiar and my age began to tell against such exertions, so I moved on, to contributing in other ways, and observing more docile aspects of the reef.

The Philippines has an awesome wealth of marine resources, and no single person can claim to have gotten more than a glimpse in time of a small part of it. Indeed, any observer ought to be humble enough to acknowledge that the most he can offer is but a glimpse. Take what I offer now as such.

Just my humble experience.



II. Cyanide Use & Consequences
The manner of cyanide use that I have personally observed has already been treated elsewhere, yet can be summarized thus:

Many collectors are pressured into purchasing cyanide from the wholesaler, else their catch is not entertained, and this recoups a substantial share of the wholesaler's purchasing costs. Cyanide is sold in solution or soluble tablet form, and loaded as solution into squirt bottles which are then taken on collection trips. Object fish are chased into rubble or live-coral refuges, and said refuges are then subjected to generous squirts of sodium cyanide solution.

This results in narcosis and/or death on the part of the fish, which are then removed from and brought to shore. There, the dead and dying are repeatedly culled until what remains are fish that will likely survive at least a few weeks more. Gross tissue damage to the liver and the gills, rather similar to the damage wrought by ammonia poisoning, is the usual mark upon the fish. Heightened color is also a common effect of exposure to cyanide, and is no small benefit to the wholesaler, as is supposedly the eradication of a number of hitchhiking parasites.

The fish mortality rate during and after cyanide capture is almost impossible to measure with any usefulness, given the variety of fish sizes and species, the variability of exposure to cyanide and even the concentration of the cyanide solution used, which can vary according to prevailing conditions: some experienced collectors fortify the solution when increased water movement (by location or time of the year) risks quick dispersal of the poison. This is done on a best-guesstimate basis. The most experienced collectors claim that they can gauge just how many squirts it takes to 'safely' stun an animal of given size without inflicting mortal hurt, and certainly, a number of cyanide-caught fish have gone on to live out prolonged captivities. This says nothing about harm to collaterals: other delicate reef organisms at the collection site that are NOT factored into consideration by the collector.

If controllable fish mortality within the context of cyanide-capture is a topic that bears argument, mortality of sessile invertebrates is not. The damage is apparent soon after a cyanide episode, in many cases one can see how the poison plumed with the current from the target site, by the trail of dead coral. Anyone suggesting the reef does not suffer substantially from cyanide fishing for ornamentals is, in my opinion, uninformed at best and likely malicious.

The squirt bottle is cheap, portable, applicable to almost any situation or part of the wild reef, and easy to repair or replace. It requires only one person to operate, and is brought to bear on target fish with an economy of time, preparation, and physical effort. It does not automatically require use of SCUBA gear. For the time consumed, and the equipment and operating cost, the yield is impressive (though damaged), even after the dead captures have been culled.

Belated mortality of the captures post-wholesale is not the collector's worry (and many collectors may not even be aware of such,) nor is it even the wholesaler's. Some retailers may even welcome it, for it can mean replacement purchases of fish by unwitting hobbyists.

Horrific as the toll on the reefs is, it just doesn't factor into many unscrupulous wholesalers' thinking. The collectors on the other hand often don't have the LUXURY of thinking: they do what they;re told, or they go penniless.


III. Alternatives Methods and Failure
Failure is a harsh judgment to render, but if the object of all the various 'reef-safe', 'alternative' collection methods was to displace cyanide fishing, then the alternatives have failed. There has been considerable time and effort invested towards their promotion.

This is not to say that the alternative methods do not work. Barrier nets, hand nets, plungers/slurp guns and the like all will work. But the dirty little non-secret is that (where remorseless fish capture is the sole concern) they do not work anywhere nearly as well as cyanide-fishing.

Barrier nets are subject to wear and tear, and can be very hard/expensive to obtain in the Philippines. They can also be time-consuming to deploy and do not lend themselves to application in many parts of the reef: they work best in the shallows, especially where there are small flats of sand in between coral superstructures. There is only a minimal amount of damage to the reef structure due to barrier-net use.

Barrier nets work well against smaller specimens of mostly-schooling species, IMHE. Once these fishes have been herded into the barrier, one can scoop them repeatedly into a collection mesh, the captives milling helplessly against the net. Larger "trophy" specimens and many of the feistier species do NOT fall for barrier traps, nor fail to escape them should they be cornered. Also, barrier nets that get away from a collector, or are carelessly discarded when damaged, pose a serious environmental hazard. After accounting for time consumed in setup, allowing the area to "relax", actual collection and proper stowage of the net, the yield can be satisfactory. There is the benefit of no toxic risk to the collector.

Hand Nets alone are simply inefficient. The yield pales in comparison to other methods, and involves more time and effort on the part of the collector. This method almost always demands the use of SCUBA equipment, which is an unrealistic requirement on collectors. There is the benefit of easy portability and of rapid applicability in almost any part of the reef. Certainly, there is no risk of toxic exposure to the collector. The yield is miniscule for the time consumed, when compared to barrier nets, IMHO. This seems a worthwhile enterprise only for the top-dollar showcase-size specimens, and against such wizened beasts, hand-netting can be a challenge.

Slurp Guns, once mastered, can be effective against even mid-size specimens. However, the physical demand on the collector is considerable over time, and the use of SCUBA equipment is practically mandatory, again an unrealistic requirement to present to collectors. For time, effort and cost, the yield can be miniscule compared to other methods.

Fixed Fish Traps are meant primarily for food fish, since the outcome is that most of the smaller fish captured wind up in the belly of the largest. They are thus not applicable to collection of the marine ornamentals, where even small specimens are marketable.

There are others, but none of the above methods can compare in terms of adaptability, portability, time-efficiency and cost-performance of a squirt bottle. The luxury of an environmentalist conscience aside, the ONLY downside a collector might see in the use of cyanide is largely-indirect damage to what may be his family's source of seafood, and personal exposure to the poison.



IV. Proposals
Efforts to convert collectors, or at least make them conversant in the aforementioned alternative collection methods should be continued.

Having said that, to effect a more immediate halt to the destructive practice of cyanide-fishing, I would propose that we learn something from the collectors: squirt-bottle use is simply the most efficient and energy-economical method for capturing fish, direct and collateral mortalities aside.

There has to be an acceptable soporific or narcotic that can directly replace the sodium cyanide solution in the bottles. Such material (usually diluted hospital anaesthetics) would:

1. benefit the reefs by reducing or eliminating collateral damage;
2. benefit the collectors by reducing target-fish mortalities;
3. benefit the hobbyist by improving the quality of the ornamental reef fish on the market.

One can inquire at almost any competent public aquarium engaged in wild capture of difficult fish, if one wants experienced information: por ejemplo, did not those puffed-up folks at the Steinhart resort to anaesthetic solutions to stun and collect garden eels in the Gulf of Mexico three decades ago? Many others should have since improved on the technique.

I say that there HAS to be such a material, capable supplanting cyanide, and really, would it be too great a challenge to find and provide it? I would guess that the sums spent on training collectors --and yes, on sustaining busywork bureaucrats-- could be partially used for subsidizing the testing, validation, purchase and distribution of an acceptable direct replacement for sodium cyanide solution: Identify ten anaesthetics already in use by public aquaria collectors and run simple cytotoxicity tests against a dozen representative and fragile species from the reef.

With a direct substitute for cyanide solution, there would be no collector-retraining required. Even if you ultimately perpetuate the unfair hold that wholesalers have on collectors, if you provide said wholesalers with reasonably-priced, superior new material, it guarantees use by collectors: the wholesalers would demand its use. By not reducting their oppressive control over collectors, you will likely meet less resistance in converting them to the new, reefsafe material.

Incentives might be offered, possibly a buy-back program, to eliminate standing stocks of sodium cyanide in the wholesalers' and collectors' possession, though the decrease in mortality of collected fish is enough attraction to cause abandonment of sodium cyanide use. The acceptable anaesthetic would possibly be many times more expensive than sodium cyanide. Possibly. But perhaps this can be offset by its effect of a decrease of fish mortalities, and if necessary, by some form of external subsidy. Or they could simply charge more per fish, with the hobby accepting the increase once the new material is proven reef-safe.

There are two flaws to this proposal that come to my mind (though others are assuredly there to be picked out by readers)

1. This might yield improvements primarily in the ornamental sector. Food-fish need to smell and taste right. Cyanide-caught food-fish, given a few days in open-circuit, will excrete all cyanide traces, and to begin with, the poison leaves apparently no effect whatsoever on the taste and texture of stunned fish. Too many anaesthetics smell bad and taste worse, and can remain on the fish for extended periods --this is obviously not a concern for ornamentals, but is unaceptable in the live-foodfish trade. Possibly the new material can accomodate this concern.

2. The remote potential is there for abuse of the new anaesthetic, insofar as the illegal narcotics trade is concerned. Some Chinese wholesalers (some of whom have astonishingly attained positions of respectability in the reform movement) simply cannot be trusted with the welfare of the reefs, and have shown ample disegard for he health of human beings by imposing cyanide's risks on collectors' entire families --would they hesitate to cash in on illegal drugs? FWIW, the illegal drug trade in the Philippines (primarily methamphetamine hydrochloride) is clearly the province of illegal Chinese aliens, aided and abetted by Chinese Filipinos.

I (and certainly, I presume, others) have been suggesting this avenue for possible study for decades now, and always the hypothetical stumbling block is monitoring for both cheat-use of cyanide, and for possible abuse of the anaesthetic in the illegal drug trade (even opening such a risk is political suicide, hence the need for thorough evaluation of any proposed reef-safe substitutel).

Insofar as cheating is concerned, I would offer that the collector and the wholesaler will simply migrate to whatever material performs better, regardless of monitoring: if it kills no fish, it makes more money; if it doesn't harm the reefs they get hobbyist acceptance and maybe increased sales. The new material would have to undergo lab and field testing, both for safety and efficiency, and only such a superior product would be offered as an alternative, to ensure conversion.

Insofar as abuse towards illegal drugs are concerned, I can only say that cocaine, illegal morphine and derivatives are not popular here despite decades of availability. Methamphetamine hydrochloride and to a lesser extent cannabinols are the narcotics of choice in this country, almost to exclusivity, and would be very hard to displace to any extent by a potential newcomer. The reform movement furthermore has a lust for funding monitoring as it is, and if so, it can easily drop the same silver for this proposal. We've been hypothesizing on the side of safety, but certainly, not all anaesthetics can be profitably (or at all) rendered into marketable, illegal narcotics.

It has been twenty years since this concept was first broached, and I know of no serious attempt to systematically identify, test and modify a reef-safe substitute material to replace sodium cyanide. Time was short back then, and is scarcer now.

I once heard a bitter colleague recall the practical definition of insanity while describing net-training efforts over the years. That was terribly unfair of her, for there really HAS been progress, but on the suspicion that there isn't enough time left to accomodate its pace, I am reviving an alternate line of discussion.


V. Conclusion
The reform movement has channeled quite a bit of wealth, time and effort into retraining collectors to adopt sometimes-more-difficult, and often lower-yield alternative capture methods. It has been a long, hard slog for which the reformists should be commended.

Perhaps some share of that wealth and effort can go into serious testing, performance-validation, and perhaps-subsidized distribution of a direct liquid replacement for sodium cyanide solution (and there has certainly been precedent for successful use of such material).

There is already an obsession with monitoring within the movement that should serve us well, should the new material (and any potential abuse of it) be deemed needful of monitoring.


I hold that if any alternative is proven superior in absolute performance AND in cost-efficiency and yet requires no re-training, or additional equipment purchases, it no longer becomes an alternative.

It simply becomes the choice.




Just my humble experience, speaking.
Discuss. Or dismiss.

...politely.
****
 

dizzy

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
horge,
That post is sure to please kalkbreath and just as surely will not be well received by Mr. Robinson. Personally I think the suggestion of replacing cyanide with a harmless narcotic seems to have some merit.

BTW I agree that Mary should not have used your letter on her site without permission.

You are quite the mystery man Horge and you certainly seem to understand the mindset of the fisherfolk. I'm really curious as to why you consider yourself a fugitive. If we hear no more from you it will be a loss. Thanks for the well articulated responses you have contributed.
 

Oldguy

Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
horge,
I am turely sorry that you feel this way. As I have been lurking for years your insite has help me many time. As I cannot disagree with your reason for wanting to leave. I for one would hate to see that as many will suffer for the action of a few.

thanks for your help in the past
reeftime
 

mkirda

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jorge,

There are alternatives, but none have been studied to the degree you suggest.

Mark Erdmann suggested that clove oil be used. I understand that it acts similarly to cyanide as a narcotic. Peter Rubec told me that he has pulled the literature that is available on it and was able to find a few interesting things.

It does work. It may stress the fish a bit, but more work needs to take place. At this point, there is no evidence either way for organ damage. James Cervino has apparently observed that there is a damaging effect on corals. From what I understand, it may be less harmful than cyanide, and may be more species-selective in terms of response. I wish James Cervino frequented the list so he could make some more comments. Clove oil typically needs to be dissolved in a solvent and it was unclear to me that the corals were not reacting to the solvent rather than the clove oil...

Frankly, I would like to see net training pushed most. If an alternative to cyanide could be found that does not kill coral and other sessile creatures, and doesn't harm the fish in any way, I guess I would support its use. I just worry yet about the over-fishing issues...

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I do not support any drugging of fish for our hobby.

The Phillippine Industry from the exporters to the fishers and the Phillipine government must understand that the use of cyanide must be strictly prohibited or the whole industry in their nation will collapse.

IMO the time is running out. Time is of the essence.
Canadian, European and the US governments will prohibit the import of cyanide fish unless we in the hobby can regulate it ourselves.

Jorge, that is the issue. Do the Phillippines and Indonesia want the industry to survive. Not, the replacement of one chemical with another.
With the greatest respect that is dated thinking. Sort of like we will restrict DDT but licence Malathion.
 

My Hairy Ass

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If I am not mistaken, clove oil needs to be used in high concentrations, far higher than sodium cyanide (not that I am advocating the continuing use of sodium cyanide, far from it). This may have financial implications for the fisherman.

To overcome instant dilution when placed in seawater, a dilution of "100 ml clove oil dissolved in 400 ml of ethanol only (250 ppt)" was used in research to capture small reef fishes. (from Clove oil: an 'eco-friendly' alternative to cyanide use in the live reef fish industry? by Mark V. Erdmann, SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin, Issue 5, March 1999 - http://www.spc.org.nc/coastfish/News/LRF/5/LRF5.htm ).

Can anyone explain further to the discussion the effects of ethanol on coral polyps?

And what would the economic cost of this method of fish capture, compared to others?

I just wonder why, if it's possible, it's not being done. As most of you know, Asian people are incredibly resourceful and not slow to catch on to an easy way of doing things.

MHA
 

JennM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Horge - I do hope you continue to offer your FIRSTHAND opinions and experience. Not all of us have been there, nay MOST of us have NOT been there, and your point of view gives us armchair warriors more to consider than what we have been fed by various factions, the media and those with and without an agenda.

I read your post with great interest, on one hand what you said makes a helluva lot of sense - then reading the mixed reviews I'm not sure what to think. I'll have to ponder it all a bit longer and even if I do arrive at an opinion, I'm still severely underqualified to shout it from the rooftops.

What I do know is that since I changed some of my buying practices (I truly believe all my purchases are net-caught now), my mortalities have dropped to almost nil. I had a jumper, one fish didn't get along with a tankmate and wasn't moved quickly enough, and one or two that died shortly after arrival, probably due to shipping stress, but I'm not getting ANY "mysterious" deaths anymore. Previously I thought I was "doing the right thing" by paying extra from wholesalers V, W and X who were offering and Indo fish for $Y and Hawaiian or Fijiian fish for $Z, the latter being more expensive. Thinking that the "Hawaiian" fish was clean, and paying more, I had to take it on faith that I was getting what I paid for, but I still had more "mystery deaths" than I could understand - I don't know if I was getting duped by the wholesalers as to the real origins of the fish or they just weren't handled as carefully as they should have been -- either way, I have made some changes to more reputable, albeit smaller sources, and the difference is amazing. Selection suffers, there is no doubt about that, but even the cherry specimens come available from time to time and the early bird gets the worm on that one. I am doing my best to explain to customers WHY I don't have the selection that others do, without slandering the competion. Since I don't know their sources, I don't speculate - they might use the same source as me, but get their order in sooner. I simply tell them about MY practices. Some understand and appreciate, others just dismiss and buy that fancy specimen elsewhere. I can't please everybody, but I can keep on doing what I believe to be right, and live with myself.

Speaking as a retailer, it is US the retailers who usually get stuck holding the most dead fish when Cyanide is used, or improper holding/shipping techniques -- we're the last stop before the hobbyist, and we don't just get 'em in and ship 'em out as some other stops along the way do. I've got fish in my store that have been there since I opened my doors last April. Until somebody comes in with the right tank, who just falls in love with that fish, it's my responsibility and my RISK. I order based on what people ask for, and what I *think* people will like based on suitabilty, hardiness, size, colour etc. I don't want to spend my weekly livestock budget on stuff that will be doing the backstroke in a month if I don't sell it right away, and I can tell you if a specimen dies in a client's tank within about 2 weeks, I'll hear about it. If that should happen more than twice, without it being the customer's direct fault (bad water params etc), most customers won't come back. If one wants long-term customers, the livestock had better be healthy. Despite the bad rap that LFS in general get on these boards, I think MOST owners/operators want longevity and health in their specimens, and IMO if that's not important to the LFS owner, then he/she shouldn't be in business. Sadly I think there is still a lot of ignorance (and dare I say apathy?) among some retailers - they don't know, don't care, but I still think they are either in the minority or find themselves going under soon enough. But that's JMHO...

I'm just a hobbyist, and a retailer. I have never been to PI, I have never been to Indonesia, Hawaii or Fiji or any of the amazing places that our specimens come from. I don't know the intricacies of cultural, social, political, enviromnemtal or other issues in the places where these animals are collected but I'm doing my best to learn. Sadly most hobbyists don't give a second thought about where their fish came from or how it got there. Most people are surprised to learn that I have to go to the airport to collect my shipments -- how do they think I got them? "Well, gee, I never gave it any consideration." Just like meat appears in the supermarket in little plastic trays wrapped with cellophane (no one thinks about how the cow was slaughtered and butchered anymore...unless they grew up on the farm!), so the fish appear in the glass boxes. Magic.

Horge, thank you for giving me a look into your part of the world, and thanks to all who continue to bring opinions and insight. Whether or not I agree notwithstanding, each person's input is enlightening.

Respectfully,
Jenn
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
A couple of things:

1. I have sent an email apologizing to horge for using his post on my site. I did give credit to the author and reefs.org. I couldn't link directly to it because it was so buried within the thread. Just like I didn't ask the PTFEA's permission to copy and paste public information on to my site, I didn't ask horge either. He had always been supportive of me in the past and I didn't see a problem with it. Had it been a private email, that would be a totally different story. I had Marivi and Ferdinand's letters for WEEKS before I posted information about them because they were private emails and I wanted the author's permission first. I am very adamant about that. I just thought that if someone posts something for public consumption on a website, that it is public domain as long as credit is given. I guess I was wrong. Like I said, I have apologized profusely to horge via email and hope he continues to provide us with his excellent insight. If there was a doubt in my mind that I was doing something to offend him, I never would have done it.

2. I'm with naesco. I'm not for any drug use. If other countries can catch their fish with nets, then why can't the Philippines? Just because they've learned bad habits doesn't mean they can't unlearn them. If my child is sucking his thumb at age four, I don't try to convince him that sucking his forefinger is better. I teach him to not suck his fingers at all! :) Dumb analogy, but it's late and I'm pretty burned out.
 

mkirda

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My Hairy Ass":2i6esgu2 said:
Can anyone explain further to the discussion the effects of ethanol on coral polyps?

And what would the economic cost of this method of fish capture, compared to others?

I just wonder why, if it's possible, it's not being done. As most of you know, Asian people are incredibly resourceful and not slow to catch on to an easy way of doing things.

MHA

I don't think anyone really knows the effects of ethanol on coral polyps. I suspect it would be a sub-lethal stressor.

Economic cost? Clove oil is cheap in Asia.

Why is it not being done? Why would you think it is not being done?
It *is* being used in at least some locations in Indonesia according to some of my sources.

Again, to make it clear: I think it best to avoid all forms of chemical capture. Use of sedatives for shipping is possibly beneficial, but I am not sure we should be releasing any sort of chemicals into the reefs without knowing their effects first.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hello All,
Although it may seem difficult to collect tropical fish with nets [and nets only] to many, it is the only way imagineable to your everyday Australian commercial fish collector. In Australia, where labor is expensive, collectors use only nets because they are cheaper and much more efficient. This is such a matter of fact reality to commercial guys, they would laugh out loud at the discussion as to finding an alternative to barrier nets and clear mesh handnets.
Drug collecting is for scientists who need a bit to do research and lack commercial skills. Its also for criminals and people who don't mind frying all the larvae around a coral head to catch a fish easily caught another way.
You don't even need it for garden eels. I myself can not only out- collect any drug user by a two to one ratio, I can teach any commercial diver to do the same...teaching, replication and training are what is called for. The garden eel technique was devised because drugs were never an option.
People, commercial methodologies are not for you to somehow figure out and over analyze, they are for you to silently observe and then nod your head and say..."so thats how you do it!"
As a commercial collector of 25 years in many countries, I cannot debate wether or not two plus two equals four. It is and thats that.
Tourists and layman and even biologists are more often than not, ill prepared to prescribe for something already doable and to a higher degree of efficiency than they can imagine. Why else do we hear of training programs year after year that don't solve the cyanide problem? The anwer? Simple. The trainings don't involve commercial expertise. Kinda like taking dance lessons from someone who doesn't them selves know how to dance.
Angels, gobies, triggers, tangs, blennies, damsels, lions, eels, etc. etc. can be taken in commercial quantity with legal, safe and environmentally sustainable nets, Not by cost inefficient drugs and their cutting agents. All ya gotta do is train the boys right and forget about it.
Steve Robinson
token commercial collector on reefs.org
 

DBM

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sure, clove oil does little damage to the fish (it's used in the food fish industry right up to harvest) but if it's damaging to coral or larvae than it's no good.
I think an effective net-training program is the way to go, some of the collectors that Steve trained more than 10 years ago are still using nets and supplying Guia. They could have easily backslided but didn't. If you're poor, and net-collecting is less effective would you stick with it for 10 years?
 

horge

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I'll resurface just one more time to say this.


I will NOT be entertaining any e-mail from you Mary :(
I've changed ISP's many times since I belatedly joined Reefs, and the listed address is defunct. However, please consider the message sent, and gratefully received. I regret that I focused on what you did article-wise, for in truth it's just the trivial straw that broke the camel's back.

I was already hypersensitized ...to the insensitivity on this forum, thus your faux pas registered more than it normally would have. Puffed-up passion seems to excuse any carelessness, but while passion is good for fundraisers, it is sober and careful discussion that can eventually produce solutions. I am grateful to the sober, and to the careful who have contributed.

But in parting, let's just allow careless passion to breed in me as well:
Let 'dumb analogy' earn its ilk.

To the whole community on this Forum:
Those 'bad habits' Mary spoke of are NOT a 'Filipino habit', any more than suffering terrorist hate is an American 'habit'. Both are effects from without. A habit is a personal thing and can be surrendered with will. If a behaviour is imposed under duress, is it a habit?

Shore-dwelling Filipinos have been catching fish live, for sheer sport, longer than white Americans have even existed, Vynlanders included, and we are rather good at it. Give me an empty half-litre acetate soda bottle, and I can catch you a small live damsel in the reef shallows within five minutes --even though I'm a landlubber and a city-slicker to boot. I know many fisherfolk --kids even-- who can catch, say, a live adult longnose butterflyfish with just half a newly-opened coconut in just as little time after locating it. Unbelievable? Go to Argao in Cebu and ask for the tattooed boy who feeds the stupid dogs who bark all night, or try one of the hardcore lifeguards at Paradise Island in Davao, Heck, ask for off-on caretaker William at Ligpo in Batangas to catch you one when the waves are decent (Dec-Feb) ...with care and courtesy.

So why do many Filipino collectors use cyanide?
Duress, remember? Cyanide is fast, and those in control want volume, and to hell with the collaterals and dead targets, if enough live on for three weeks.

Blame the Filipinos? Blame the country? Blame the collectors?
We're talking about POISON! Would YOU ever handle cyanide? Swim in it? Expose your kids to it? You'd have to store it near your house, you know.. leave your wife and kids with it while you're out collecting. You'd only do something that dangerous if you were forced to, as in no other recourse nor benefactor to seek refuge with in the face of stark, remorseless poverty.
Why, those ignorant, hardheaded collectors who poison the reef!
Why won't they change their habits! Stubborn fools!


So, if you are unable to remove those who are imposing duress, who perpetuate cyanide use, one might try to subvert their methods to earn the reprieve for the reefs we all want, no? Find and substitute a reef-safe agent for the poison now in use, maybe? Dear God, you're talking ....CHEMICALS!*


Besides, we can just police and reform the abusive middlemen!
And it's so easy to police and reform of those Colombian coke-kings!
It's also so easy to eliminate ossified, wasteful bureaucracy in governments the world over, from our BFAR to the US Pentagon!
It's also obviously so easy to solve cyanide fishing, right? Just look at our record! We can get it done in time, so don't bother with alternatives to our alternatives. Promise!
(--Cheap shots earn their ilk, eh? Got your gander up? Don;t like being paid in the same coin? I've 'passion' in store too. It excuses anything, right?)

An American will smart at any careless criticism of his government and fellow Americans, coming from a foreigner. How do you think this Filipino might feel after reading through the careless posts in this forum?

Perhaps some of those careless armchair observers and weekend experts could practice discernment when posting: try to discern between cyanide pushers and Filipinos in general; discern between the trade and the country it happens to be in. (Cyanide abuse is a small concern when the country is in debt, the people in need, and the US gives our old textile and electronics quota to communist China, while refusing to help clean up the thousands of liters of toxic waste in buried Navy drums, leaching out to Subic Bay. Just technical help with the cleanup for God's sake...)

Discern.
Distinguish.
Differentiate. Or be indifferent.
Is this Forum specifically for North Americans only? Can it even then practice indifference to the sensibilities of those hut-dwelling, brown-skinned, uneducated, environmentally-ignorant ...err, thumbsuckers?

If, perhaps out of frustration over cyanide fishing's resilience, you subconsciously translate all collectors from victims into easily-blamed villains, shame on you.

Give up all your First-World conforts and securities, bring your family to live on a tropical coast in a rope-lashed hut and watch your high environmental morals stand up to the cries of your starving kids, badly in need of medicine, clothing, after every storm and flu season, your boat not yet paid for, damaged yearly with interest piling up, nets torn or lost and some MFing government rep reminding you to contribute a 'special tax' so they can entertain and tour some foreign environmental consultant through your area. Oh, and the kids' tuition fees are overdue and there's an increase because the school's roof was blown off by storm again.
Electricity? How about chlorinated water? Cooking gas? At least the white people say they can bring us barrier nets ... at a reasonable price!
(Upchucking this 'passionate' hoohaa is pretty addictive! Maybe it's turning into a --gasp, 'habit'? Let me suck my thumb some more!)

The fisherfolk knew cyanide was killing the reefs before you or we Manilenos ever sent experts over to 'educate' them. They may have learned the details, the precise 'how' and 'why' belatedly (and just as soon discarded much information as trivial), but yet:

I would hardly question a native New Yorker's familiarity with subway quirks, routes and schedules, despite their possible ignorance of train engine mechanics. Even a tourist can make sense of the Port Authority transit map! You thus shouldn't trivialize the fisherfolk's empathy with and observation of the very reef they live by. They largely know its rhythms, and they know it's in trouble. Their lives have depended for millennnia on knowing where fish are bountiful, and how the reef ties fish to it. How bitterly do you think is their hand forced into poisoning it?

If the people you send over are even a tenth as indifferent, as ignorant as some of you here sound, they will still get lots of courteous, patient smiles, plus the game cooperation and gallant hospitality we are known for. But your emissaries will have thus planted many a seed of resentment at their indifference to our sensibilities, and that will last far longer than a few weeks of training.

Indifference will earn its ilk.

Do you really generalize Filipinos, or even Filipino fisherfolk, as ignorant and wilfully careless of their environment? Many of you are yourselves wilfully careless in your language here, and this post is in part but the foul liquor brewed ...from its ilk.


Soberly, I do not understand the opposition to anaesthetics even before the material has been determined or its properties ascertained. You seem unwilling to even consider that there may BE a reef-safe anaesthetic, perhaps because ...it's all "chemicals". It might surprise you to learn that many of the anaesthetics I consider quite promising are actually derived or synthesized based on isolates from reef organisms, including fish, invertebrates and algae.

FWIW, Get rid of the duress, and watch your net-training efforts really pay off like gangbusters. The anaesthetic option is for what I fear is the practical INABILITY to remove said duress, comprendes?

But, so much for that sobriety.



You're all smart, and most of you are Americans,
so I'm sure you hold all the answers.
Passionately.




Manong, para, po. Dito na po ako bababa.
8)
 

Oldguy

Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
horge,
I sit here humbled after reading your last post.
Many us try to see the big picture but that is very hard to do with out all the facts. I hope the this has open the eyes and minds of many.
With a sadden heart I say good bye to you.
Reeftime
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Horge,


If you feel we are somewhat ignorant to the subject, then by all means stay here and educate us! I know you said that is not your mission, but I for one would listen eagerly. I have never been to the Philippines and have to rely on information from other who have in order to form my opinions. I would appreciate your information greatly.

For one thing, I've NEVER thought the collector is a villian in all of this. I have done everything I can to support native collectors in Fiji because I understand and appreciate their particular circumstances. However, everyone with any experience in the Philippines has informed me (and everyone here) that net training is a huge part of the answer. That leads one to believe that a little education for the fisherfolk would go a long way. Is it your opinion then that net training is basically a worthless endeavor, since the middlemen and exporters are pushing the drugs on the collectors? Are you suggesting alternative drugs because the middlemen and exporters are going to require something that they can sell to the fisherfolk? How would you suggest destroying the cyanide supply line? Is it even possible?
 

Jaime Baquero

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Horge,

Many thanks for sharing your points of view. Your input is key to better educate the readers.

The crux of the matter is that the marine ornamentals industry does not want to understand that net training by itself is not the solution to the cyanide problem in the PI. It has been very difficult to convince stakeholders that the solution needs to be holistic in its approach. Social,economic and cultural aspects MUST be considered when addressing the issue.

I am conviced that many of the readers of reefs.org forums are not interested in reading about something "UGLY" as the cyanide issue, something that "disturbs" their hobby. They do not want to assume the responsibility they should.

The following information will give us an idea the kind of topics hobbyists are interested in:


FORUM TOPICS POSTS

The industry behind the hobby 217 4183
(environment issues)


General Reef Keeping Discussion 16,265 119,544

THE SUMP 3,046 58,172


Jaime
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jorge,
I couldn't agree with you more on nearly everything except the alternative drug and its expensive cutting agent requirement. Acetone, isoprophyll alcohol, vodka...whats in vogue these days ?
When our government supported and fortified the Marcos regimes plunder of the Philippines for twenty years, it was to our great shame as a nation. The corruption that grew under Marcos was certainly not limited to the fishery sector. The" cash-in and carry"," loot and burn" poverty generating Kleptocracy that he fostered ruined many things in the Philippines and the tropical fish trade was one of them. There are greater issues of course, but the sabatoge of protein supply, loss of jobs to reef destruction and increase in divers accidents from having to go deerper all the time are significant as well.
The exporters cartel in the Philippines have the Marcos BFAR to thank for their free hand in sponsoring poison as a fishing method. They sold it directly for many years out of their facilities and then moved it to safe houses and middlemen when the Aquino government started to slowly change things.
I don't think you have strong opinions at all. I think they are simply patriotic and "a tell it like it is" breath of fresh air. I beleive that the creation and enhancement of poverty is a crime as well. Treason in fact and I hope that more and more Filipinos see what has happened in the name of "export" dollars and hold their government to account.
After all, it is your country. Selling it out occurs when people lack the passion and conviction to fight back.
Clearly, not all Filipinos are complacent or silent. I was happy to see that revealed in your contribution.
The exporters and the Americans will do to your country what you allow them to. It is the very nature of colonialism. Don't let them...and please don't confuse the selfish and silly yanks amongst us with all of us either. Laban pa rin!
Very Sincerely,
Steve
PS. How would you like to come to Florida with some net trained Filipino divers and teach the Florida drug collectors how to catch fish properly? They need training also.
 

PeterIMA

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Reply to Horge and others about the use of Drugs as an alternative to the use of Nets.

This is an old question that can be traced back to the writings of Robert Straughan in the 1960s. He was against use of drugs for collecting. It certainly is an appealing idea (drugs). If one could be found that was: a) not too expensive to purchase, b) did not harm corals, c) did not harm the fish, and/or d) has a fast knock down time to induce anaesthesia; I would be all for it. In fact, in 1985 I submitted a proposal to look into the feasability of various anaesthetics for use as a collecting tool for the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC). The proposal was not funded.

Back to drugs. I have a fairly extensive file on anaesthetics that have been used for aquaculture and fisheries applications. Some that come to mind are MS-222, Quinaldine, Quinadine Sulfate, propoxate, phenoxyethanol, benzocain, sodium carbonate, metomidate, and more recently clove oil. Basically, most of the ones on the list (with the exception of sodium bicarbonate, and clove oil) are too expensive for use in underdeveloped countries like the Philippines and Indonesia. Metomidate is restricted for scientific research and medical/veterinary uses (you can only buy it if you are associated with some university or other research institution). So much for babituates and narcotics alluded to by Horge.

So what about Clove Oil? As Mark Erdmann (1999) pointed out clove oil is extracted from the stems, buds, leaves, and/or clove seeds of the clove tree (Eugenia caryophyllata) that is native to Indonesia. It is used as a topical ointment and is readily available at low cost in Indonesia. It is not so easy to obtain here in the USA (back to that later).
Some points presented by Erdmann (1999)
a) Clove oil is highly effective even at low doses. It induced anaesthesia faster and at lower concentrations than MS-222. Munday and Wilson (1997) found that was only marginally less effective than quinaldine and more effective than three other chemicals.
b) Clove oil provides a much calmer induction to anaesthesia than the other chemicals.
c) Recovery time after clove oil anaesthesia is substantially longer than from exposure to other anaesthetics (possibly useful when collecting).
d) Clove oil is much less expensive. Keene et al. (1998) showed that clove oil to be 1/5th the price of MS-222.

Both of the above studies found that dissolving clove oil in ethanol was preferable, as this kept it evenly suspended in solution. However, Durville and Collet(2001) found that clove oil solutions could be prepared without use of a solvent. The anaesthetic was prepared by vigorously shaking a flask of clove oil and seawater to obtain a whitish emulsion. It proved to be highly effective with juvenile marine fish (Valamugil cunnesius and Monodactylus argentus).

About 8 other papers published over the past five years also got me excited about clove oil as a collecting tool or possibly as a sedative for handing/packing fish to alleviate handling stress. Last year I learned that there is a New Zealand firm that makes a commercial product called Aqui-S. This is basically isoeuginol and euginol prepared with an emulsifier. The company is trying to get Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval for use of AQUI-S in the USA for aquaculture. It presently costs about $200 per gallon in the USA. Likewise, to buy a bottle of clove oil from Sigma Chemical Co. for scientific research is about $70 per bottle. So these products are not cheap in the USA.

Anyway, I learned from James Cervino (personal communication 2002) that clove oil kills corals. Likewise, a recent paper by Davidson et al. (2000) found elevated levels of plasma cortisol (a steroid stress-related hormone) with rainbow trout exposed to crowding and exposure to AQUI-S. Anaesthesia with AQUI-S at the recommended dose of 17 mg/L (ppm) did not appear to be effective in alleviating the stress of crowding the rainbow trout. There would need to be further research to evaluate its environmental impact before the IMA could consider endorsing its use for collecting.

So to date, I don't see any magic bullet drug that meets the criteria. Nets are still a much cheaper and environmentally safer option for collecting. The IMA sticks to its original position that drugs are not needed. Nets in the hands of properly trained collectors can do the job.

References
Davidson, G.W., P.S. Davie, G. Young, an R.T. Fowler. 2000. Physiological resonses of rainbow trout Onchorhynchus mykiss to crowding and anaesthesia with AQUI-S. Journal ofhte World Mariculture Society 31(1): 105-114.

Durville, P., and A. Collet (2000) Close oil used as an anaesthetic with juvenile marine fish. SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin#9.

Erdmann, M.V. 1999. Clove oil:as an 'eco-friendly' alternative to cyanide use in the live reef fish industry? SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulleting #5.

Keene, J.L., D.G. Noakes, R.D. Moccia, and C.G. Soto. (1998) The efficacy of clove oil an and anaethetic for rainbow trout, Onchorhynchus mykiss (Walbaum). Aquaculture Research 29: 89-103.


Munday, P.L., and S.K. Wilson. 1997. Comparative efficacy of clove oil and other chemicals in anaesthetization of Pomacentrus amboinensis, a coral reef fish. Journal of Fish Biology 51:931-938.
 

naesco

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
PeterIMA

Thank you for a factual well presented outline on the possbile use of alternative drugs in catching fish and the effects of those drugs on the fish.

I am happy that IMA supports the principle"that drugs or not needed".
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hello people,
There may be confusion as to why the reform minded dealers have limited variety ie. few top fish causing nearly everyone to abandon them and subsidize the other guys.
It has absolutely nothing to do with catchability of the fish. Blue face angels and Majestics are certainly not a problem to catch. They're just not found in the DAMPS [ ie, depleted area management plan zones]
The certified collection areas tend to be in traditional collecting areas that have seen decades of fishing, often w/ poison. The long range far afield boats are where the good fish are and the net collectors are not.
Its a deployment issue and the small, bonafide net caught fish dealers don't have the sales, cash flow or cash to buy large boats and send them out for 7-12 days as does the cyanide trade.
So, the lack of the top fish has come to be the hallmark of the honest dealers. You will know them by their lack of good fish and poor sales. What kind of reward is that for the people who passionately want to do the right thing?
Steve
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top