Cyanide, the Philippines, Reviving a Proposal and JMHE:

[dizzy]

My hairy ass,
That was not a very nice post. I do believe people who are going to make accusations or statements like that should use a real name. IMO Peter is a man of integrity and it will take more than slander from a bunch of no name cowards to change my opinion.

 

[My Hairy Ass]

You are right Mitch, I shall withdraw the buffoon part and apologize. My frustration got the better of me.

MHA

 

[Oldguy]

dizzy,

IMO Peter is a man of integrity and it will take more than slander from a bunch of no name cowards to change my opinion.

I do not belive that I have questioned Peters integrity. I only question how he may handle Horge's concerns depending on what he does.

As far as your statment of NO NAME COWARDS. That is a bunch of crap.
You can put any name you want at the end of a post. That does not mean that is the person posting, or even their name. If you stop and think for a minute I have no way know that you are who you say you are. Putting your name at the end of a post or not, does not chage what was in the post. If you have ever had or know anyone who has had problem from the internet then you may not so quick to make foolish statements.

 

[Anonymous]

so is this a thread about cyanide and possible alternatives/methods, and the industry, or about post etiquette? :roll:

i think bickering amongst yourselves about how to prove one's identity, and the validity, or lack thereof, is irrelevant to this discussion.

i, for one, do not care as to horges true identity-only as to whether i agree, or disagree w/his proposal of alternative methodologies for capture of ornamentals

calling his ideas/proposals into question because of personal opinions as to his identity/background is babyish, immature poppycock-to all who started that direction in this thread. :evil:

and for the record-i think the best alternative, for the collectiion issue, is the attempt to implement net catching techniques

if this also involves, or needs to involve-some type of political venue, as i understand, from horges post that it probably does, then i would more than be happy to hear his ideas on the subject

his ideas/input have merit regardless of who he is, or where he comes from, as long as they are intelligent ones

 

[My Hairy Ass]

Very good Vitz, couldn't agree more. Facts are important, and having received private e-mails from Horge, I feel he is a man who knows what he is talking about. As for others who don't, well, we know who they are........

MHA

 

[Kalkbreath]

...I believe Peter is a Man of honor as well............................... yet I also feel He surely hopes that Horge is not the "REAL" deal and that Horge does not accurately represent the collector in the Philippines...............But the sad part is that even with the best intentions and highest levels of education, one can still be completely led astray.....I think we are now at the point where ---------------------------if Horge IS correct there is no chance that the net reform can work and we might best be working on Plan "B" now ought we?
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[clarionreef]

Guys!
Hundreds [ but not thousands] have been well trained already and stuck with it day after day, some for over for 20 years. I know that if Jorge met them and dove with them, his opinion of the capacity of village fisherman to change would be very different!
Not only can they change and collect more fish with nets...they are so valued for their talent that the cream of the crop has been skimmed and sent abroad to work in Tonga, Palau, Vanuatu, the Red Sea and other places in the South Pacific. The non sense about catchability of nets vs. drugs was decided already. Among divers trained properly, nets won hands down! All the nets..ie hand nets and barrier nets .
Your favorite importers already know this! You should also!
The business people saw how good they were and took their talent from the country ! Its been a brain drain of sorts. In high tech industries its called "head hunting."
If these 'stars' remained in the Philippines, their efforts would've multiplied the numbers of net-collectors considerably by now. NGOs didn't even know this til recently because they were not privy to inside information. Information that has been well known inside the trade for quite some time now!
The new generation of Filipino fish collectors are the best collectors in the world!
It happened and continues to. Now the task is to train those left behind to a better standard and to hopefully keep em in the country this time! Then, their numbers can multiply on their own as we train still more.
Training divers is not that hard . Its training everybody else that is so difficult!
Sincerely, Steve
Hey, can I change my name also?
I wanna be "threadkiller" or something like that.

 

[mkirda]

...I believe Peter is a Man of honor as well............................... yet I also feel He surely hopes that Horge is not the "REAL" deal and that Horge does not accurately represent the collector in the Philippines...............But the sad part is that even with the best intentions and highest levels of education, one can still be completely led astray.....I think we are now at the point where ---------------------------if Horge IS correct there is no chance that the net reform can work and we might best be working on Plan "B" now ought we?

Kalkbreath,

You certainly seem to know all about everything over there.
You seem to have all the answers.
I think it is time for you to form your own NGO and go over and tackle the problems! Go ahead, go to Manila, set up shop, and push whatever you want. Show those net-trainers and net-catchers you mean business!

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Guys!
Hundreds [ but not thousands] have been well trained already and stuck with it day after day, some for over for 20 years. I know that if Jorge met them and dove with them, his opinion of the capacity of village fisherman to change would be very different!
Not only can they change and collect more fish with nets...they are so valued for their talent that the cream of the crop has been skimmed and sent abroad to work in Tonga, Palau, Vanuatu, the Red Sea and other places in the South Pacific. The non sense about catchability of nets vs. drugs was decided already. Among divers trained properly, nets won hands down! All the nets..ie hand nets and barrier nets .
Your favorite importers already know this! You should also!
The business people saw how good they were and took their talent from the country ! Its been a brain drain of sorts. In high tech industries its called "head hunting."
If these 'stars' remained in the Philippines, their efforts would've multiplied the numbers of net-collectors considerably by now. NGOs didn't even know this til recently because they were not privy to inside information. Information that has been well known inside the trade for quite some time now!
The new generation of Filipino fish collectors are the best collectors in the world!
It happened and continues to. Now the task is to train those left behind to a better standard and to hopefully keep em in the country this time! Then, their numbers can multiply on their own as we train still more.
Training divers is not that hard . Its training everybody else that is so difficult!
Sincerely, Steve
Hey, can I change my name also?
I wanna be "threadkiller" or something like that.

.................I buy from Dateline, Dave in the Kingdom , Palau Aqua.and Fiji each month...{even several times from Cortez Marine this year}....so yes,I Know why there are more deep water fish availible from these guys lately....and it aint because the Tongans have learned to hold their breaths longer....Ventralis , Pictilis and such ......... But I think you have failed to question WHY these net fisherman have left PI to fish elsewhere? Also , even with the "cream of the crop" net fishermen collecting........I have yet to see bennies ,gobbies and such showing up on on these avail lists? And I know what you might say next but ......."Davids" fish all Land in Fiji and with his stunt with the Mexican navy ....dont rule out creative fishing from there just yet.....On a few of the importors boards I watch Island countries collectors trade fish back and forth day after day.....all over the world.......the fish are being mixed back and forth so much now that Its hard to tell where the fish were originaly collected...... Do you really think Bali ONLY imports thousands of Bangii Cardinals to resell?, .....PI fish are mixed in all over the world........without telling the intended buyers........Why is that?
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[clarionreef]

Kalk,
There are no importations of Philippine fish or Indo fish into Fiji or Tonga.
Bali "imports" fish from other islands inside its own country though.
Perhaps this is the point of confusion misunderstood in the translation from the L.A. importers who feeds you this stuff.
Bali is Indonesia...kinda like Georgia is the USA.
Steve
PS. The greatest source of small netcaught gobies and blennies in the world is the Philippines. The province of Batangas which exports its fish to Manila, [4 hour away] has long been the bastion of the netcollecting culture in the Philippines. They even weave their own nets! The vaunted firefish push-net was invented there. This area produced millions of netcaught firefish, blue gudgeons, barred gobies, scissortail gogies, goldenhead sleepers, six line wrasses, clown gobies and damsels. On account of the sins of the trade however, Batangas has been shut down by the local governments. The netcollecting tribes of Batangas have since shifted operations to Mindoro.

 

[clarionreef]

and...
as to your question as to why leave the Philippines and go elsewhere...
duh, lets see...they were paid more money to go? Just a wild shot in the dark.
But thanks for confirming the fact that exciting new developments out of the South Pacific are on account of the alledgedly, hard to train Filipinos. I appreciate that.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary,

Can I ask you a favor? Some comments made by participants such as Steve Robinson are not helping the cause. Could be possible to suggest to S. Robinson to stop making false statements related to NGO's and their work in the Philippines?

If he has something to say against a particular NGO, would be better if he targets the specific organization. When S.R says NGO's, he is including all of them. Would be fair if I say that all fish dealers in the States are crooks? Of course no. Most of them are honests and pay bills to keep their suppliers going, probably that a few do not.

I had to say ..oh no... him again... when I read S.R statement "NGO's didn't even know this til recently because they were not privy to inside information. Information that has been well known inside the trade for quite some time now".

To clear OVI/Haribon, I can say that I worked with Don McAllister a few cases of Filipinos fish collectors that were required by people from the industry in the U.S to go to the Red Sea to collect ornamental fish and transfer the technology to locals. It was a positive result of the net training program to see that these collectors had the opportunity to go to other places to obtain a better benefit from their work. At the same time they were showing to locals how to collect natural ressources without damaging the coral reef ecosystem.

This issue was part of conversations that I had with people from the industry (the ones who know how good are the filipino fish collectors). This happened during MACNA conferences in different parts of the U.S. I didn't have the pleasure of meeting Steve Robinson during those meetings. I have gone to many of those meetings but S.R was not around.

These attacks against NGO's in general do not bring anything positive to this forum. We want to collaborate, we are ready to accept constructive criticism. Please, lets work in harmony.

Every one, as individual and as a representative of an organization, merits respect.


Jaime Baquero
Ocean Voice International[/quote]

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime,
I didn't mention Haribon and I am trying to protect your feelings by doing that. You should not insist on dragging them back into this, especially since they have been irrelevant, impotent and inactive in the search for resolution to this problem that continues to plague the Philippines and the industry.
Your loyalty to them more than the issue is interesting. We see that a lot these days. If they have moved on and learned from mistakes, fine. But that doesn't mean that at the critical period of history, they were innocent. What they did [ and didn't do ] was terrible and thats why we still need to actively search for a way out of this mess.
If you are still relevant to the issue, you might consider joining a current and relevant project and make a constructive contribution and stop this useless defense of very failures that feed and keep this damn issue alive...year after year!
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve,


I just want to protect OVI. You should stop dragging my back into this. Is simple, if you have something to say about an NGO please be specific. Isn't that fair? One thing I can not tolerate is misinformation.

Of course that OVI is still relevant to the issue. There are many things that need to be done. When we left the Philippines we knew that the work hadn't been finished. It is the time to take advantage of the momentum. Seems that today we have more stakeholders of tisi industry paying a bit more of attention to what is happening than before.

We are considering options that would contribute to achieve goals.

There are two issues that need special attention:

1- variety of fish in availability list of certified exporters as Marivi

2- handling techniques and holding methods to community level. This issue must be addressed to avoid unnecessary mortality and unnecessary stress on healthy net caught fish. To tackle this important aspect a project could be developed to work at community level with an Association or Federation of fish collectors.
Holding facilities should be set up in an estrategic location, where fish variety can be ensured, fisherfolks will bring their fish to their holding facilities providing good water quality and good husbandry practices to fish while stored at community level. Net training diploma is a must for a fish collector willing to be member of the group.

The project should include transportation and delivery to the exporter facility (Marivi).

Operating this way, collectors won't be in contact with middlemen/women, avoiding pressure to buy cuyanide.

(Net training + good handling c.l + good holding methods = Good quality fish to exporter facility = Top quality fish exported by certified exporter = better income for fish collectors = better coral reef conditions.) = Eco-Marketing and Fair Trade for Fish Collectors

Your feedback is appreciated.

Jaime

 

[Kalkbreath]

Steve, Perhaps it would be of interest if you dropped in on one of these exporter boards ? I will suggest An American one "Aqualink."..... Take a look at all the collectors wanting to buy other countries fish? Also keep in mind that these people are looking for NEW sources.......the vast majority of fish swapping is between companies one on one on the telephone.... The Indo boards are ten times the posters {but i aint letting that source out on this board of wholesalers :wink: } Also Again, why no small fish being cought buy the PI net collectors working in any of the other Islands ?
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[MaryHM]

Ok. If someone is going to make allegations against an NGO, name the NGO(s). Everyone else, quit your stinking complaining about every nit picking detail of "he said, he said". If this continues, I'm going to request the forum to be closed. I'm really getting sick and tired of all of the petty crap going on in here. If I wanted to moderate the "13 year old boys with inferiority complexes" forum I would have signed up there. :roll:

 

[My Hairy Ass]

Maybe we can have Peter v Paul in the schoolyeard instead?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary,

Thanks. I am sure that it will be the best way to avoid confrontations, also we won't waste time reading non sense.

jaime
OVI

 

[MaryHM]

MHA- Comments like that are exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone here needs to GROW UP. We're talking about serious issues that everyone is passionate about. I understand that. But the "opinions" that have been being expressed lately are not conducive to moving industry reform ahead. Quite the opposite. It's making people lose respect for other people, based on their very unprofessional attitudes. I can say that I've definitely lost respect for certain people in here and now do not value their opinions near as much as I used to. Think about what you're saying before you say it. The world is reading...

 

[My Hairy Ass]

I think that was my point, but if you missed it.............