Cyanide, the Philippines, Reviving a Proposal and JMHE:

[Kalkbreath]

I still think you all dont "get it" ..The average native is still going to use a squirt bottle to catch his familys dinner and the vast seafood industryof collectors are NOT going to use nets ..........if you dont solve these problems which combined are responsible for 85% of the reef poisoning...............then you have saved nothing............
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[mkirda]

Manong, para, po. Dito na po ako bababa.

For those who do not speak Tagalog, the admittedly rough translation is:

Sir, stop please. This is where I want to get off.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

I still think you all dont "get it" ..The average native is still going to use a squirt bottle to catch his familys dinner

Kalk,

The average native does not use a squirt bottle of anything to catch his family's dinner. They are far more likely to go hook and line fishing. Or use fish traps. Or even go spear fishing. Or they go grab one of the chickens.

I don't know where you get your info, but in all my experiences in the Philippines you are wrong about this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Okey, what about the vast seafood for export industry........which some say is responsible for 85% of the reef damage and seventy times more reef fish by weight exported? Will the seafood blast and cyanide fishermen use Steves/ MAC nets?Or would it be more likely that they would use a new super juice which works better then Cyanide but with out all the mess? I would pick the new juice.......so would Horge......but what would he know about such things right?
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[dizzy]

Peter,
I think you left me with more questions than answers. You say James Cervino determined that clove oil killed corals, but you provided no details. I read Mark Erdmann's article and he stated that his initial tests did not harm Pocillopora and Acopora. I think you should encourage James Cervino to publish his findings.

I agree that barrier and hand nets are probably the least damaging methods of fish capture that are currently available. I also read what Jorge had to say about the difficulty in getting people to use the nets and ease in which they can cheat. The solution is not just to find something that works the best, but something that will also gain widespead acceptance. And yes kalk is right, it needs to be something that can be applied to the larger food fishing industry as well.

If anyone bothered to read Horge's posting he was not suggesting clove oil as the magic bullet. He said something about natural sustances from fish or invertebrates might be worth investigating for their anesthetic properties. I agree that a certain amount of the millions of dollars the NGOs have been given should go to the purpose.

Did anyone bothered to read the link to Mark Erdmann's article. (posted by My Hairy Ass) The article stated that it is legal to use cyanide as an anaesthetic for transporting live fish in Indonesia. There has got to be something better for this purpose and clove oil can't be ruled out just yet.

I also got a strong sense from reading Horge's posting that for any policy to work, the Philippino people are going to have to have a large part in the decision making process. I believe that NGOs like IMA have done a lot of the necessary ground work to effect positive change. I think it is time to listen to people like Jorge and Jaime, because its their country and they have the unique perspective that is often lacking in Western world solutions.

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Mitch Gibbs (Dizzy)

First let me explain that I not trying to stop anyone from having an opinion on these matters. I hope that you will respect that my opinion and that of the IMA is based on over 15 years with the IMA dealing with these problems in the Philippines and over 10 years in Indonesia. We have been an NGO in Vietnam (anoter place where cyanide use is rampant) for the past three years. Each country has unique cultures and IMA tries to deal with this by employing citizens of these countries. So, we are not insensitive or out of touch with the needs of these countries and/or their desire to manage their own affairs.

With regard to Horge, I am not convinced he is a Filipino. If he is, he is well educated and has spent a good deal of time in other countries like the USA. I disagree with his viewpoint concerning the need for the use of drugs to collect either aquarium fishes or food fishes. If he has some chemical that he thinks would work, he should discuss the specifics rather than vague generalities for the need to evaluate narcotics and/or barbutates/natual products. Being Filipino does not make him an expert on any of these chemical compounds more than anyone else.

As far as Jaime Baquero he is from Columbia and is a Canadian citizen. I respect his views about the Philippines. However, I don't see him advocating the use of drugs for collecting either marine aquarium fish or food fish species.

The IMA delevoped a training program called HALD. This stands for Hook And Line Decompression. Fishermen were trained how to use hand lines with baited hooks for capturing groupers alive. I helped to introduce a special needle (developed by SeaGrant in Florida) for deflating the swim bladders of groupers. This was applied successfully on the Island of Busuanga (a center for the grouper trade in the Philippines). About 250 food fishermen received HALD training from IMA at various locations throughout the Philippines under the USAID sponsored Community Empowerment Program from 1998-2000.

So, I don't see that there is a need for a drug for capturing food fish as Kalk has suggested. I might also add that fishing with any kind of chemical compound is illegal in the Philippines under Presidential Decree 704 and now under the new Fisheries Act of 1998. The Act states

"If shall be unlawful for any person to catch, take, or gather or cause to be caught, taken or gathered fish or any fishery species in Philippine waters with the use of electricity, explosives, noxious or poisonous substance such as sodium cyanide in the Philippines fishery areas, which will kill, stupefy, disable or render unconscious fish or fishery species" Exceptions were made for the use of chemicals for research, educational, or scientific purposes; or to eradicate predators in fishponds provided the practice is conducted in an acceptable manner without causing adverse environmental impact in neighboring waters and fishing grounds.

I am not as fully versed with the laws in Indonesia. I believe it is illegal to use drugs like cyanide. Erdmann pointed out one loophole where cyanide is considered to be a sedating agent for shipment of food fish. The IMA does not make the laws in any of these countries. We were successful in getting the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries And Aquatic Resources (BFAR) to pass a Fisheries Administrative Order (FAO) in 1986 that made an exception to the law against the the use of fine-mesh nets. This allows the capture of aquarium fish with fine-mesh nets (like barrier nets). As far as I know. this still applies under the new Fisheries Act. So, IMA's position concerning the use of nets for collecting aquarium fish is consistent with Philippine laws whereas the use of drugs is not.

Groupers can be captured in a variety of ways such as with traps and/or various nets. There is no need for drugs to capture either aquarium fish or food fish.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Mitch Gibbs (Dizzy)

First let me explain that I not trying to stop anyone from having an opinion on these matters. I hope that you will respect that my opinion and that of the IMA is based on over 15 years with the IMA dealing with these problems in the Philippines and over 10 years in Indonesia. We have been an NGO in Vietnam (anoter place where cyanide use is rampant) for the past three years. Each country has unique cultures and IMA tries to deal with this by employing citizens of these countries. So, we are not insensitive or out of touch with the needs of these countries and/or their desire to manage their own affairs.

With regard to Horge, I am not convinced he is a Filipino. If he is, he is well educated and has spent a good deal of time in other countries like the USA. I disagree with his viewpoint concerning the need for the use of drugs to collect either aquarium fishes or food fishes. If he has some chemical that he thinks would work, he should discuss the specifics rather than vague generalities for the need to evaluate narcotics and/or barbutates/natual products. Being Filipino does not make him an expert on any of these chemical compounds more than anyone else.

As far as Jaime Baquero he is from Columbia and is a Canadian citizen. I respect his views about the Philippines. However, I don't see him advocating the use of drugs for collecting either marine aquarium fish or food fish species.

The IMA delevoped a training program called HALD. This stands for Hook And Line Decompression. Fishermen were trained how to use hand lines with baited hooks for capturing groupers alive. I helped to introduce a special needle (developed by SeaGrant in Florida) for deflating the swim bladders of groupers. This was applied successfully on the Island of Busuanga (a center for the grouper trade in the Philippines). About 250 food fishermen received HALD training from IMA at various locations throughout the Philippines under the USAID sponsored Community Empowerment Program from 1998-2000.

So, I don't see that there is a need for a drug for capturing food fish as Kalk has suggested. I might also add that fishing with any kind of chemical compound is illegal in the Philippines under Presidential Decree 704 and now under the new Fisheries Act of 1998. The Act states

"If shall be unlawful for any person to catch, take, or gather or cause to be caught, taken or gathered fish or any fishery species in Philippine waters with the use of electricity, explosives, noxious or poisonous substance such as sodium cyanide in the Philippines fishery areas, which will kill, stupefy, disable or render unconscious fish or fishery species" Exceptions were made for the use of chemicals for research, educational, or scientific purposes; or to eradicate predators in fishponds provided the practice is conducted in an acceptable manner without causing adverse environmental impact in neighboring waters and fishing grounds.

I am not as fully versed with the laws in Indonesia. I believe it is illegal to use drugs like cyanide. Erdmann pointed out one loophole where cyanide is considered to be a sedating agent for shipment of food fish. The IMA does not make the laws in any of these countries. We were successful in getting the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries And Aquatic Resources (BFAR) to pass a Fisheries Administrative Order (FAO) in 1986 that made an exception to the law against the the use of fine-mesh nets. This allows the capture of aquarium fish with fine-mesh nets (like barrier nets). As far as I know. this still applies under the new Fisheries Act. So, IMA's position concerning the use of nets for collecting aquarium fish is consistent with Philippine laws whereas the use of drugs is not.

Groupers can be captured in a variety of ways such as with traps and/or various nets. There is no need for drugs to capture either aquarium fish or food fish.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hi Mitch,

I am not from the Philippines, I'm from Colombia, I have been in Canada since 1983 ( too many winters). My background is marine biology, with experience in artisanal fisheries, I worked in Colombia for many years with fisherfolks. I worked at community level organizing fishers around community centers, offering them alternative livelihoods to combat dynamite fishing, which is responsible for destruction of coral reefs in the Atlantic coast of Colombia and many other Caribbean countries.

In both countries there is an environmental problem, destruction of coral reefs, the origen of the problem is the same, poverty and lack of willingness of central governments to tackle social, economic and cultural aspects in coastal communities.

Filipinos and Colombians identified each other very much we have the same roots.

Jaime

 

[dizzy]

Jaime, Peter,
Thanks for the responses. Sorry about the confussion Jaime. This has been an interesting thread. I agree nets make the most sense for capturing fish. I also think clove oil should be further investigated as a possible sedative for use after capture. It is sure to be better than the cyanide they use in Indo for transporting live food fish.

Peter I think Jorge really is a Philippino. His grasp of the English language is remarkable, but he is obviously extremely intelligent and well educated.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Let me point out that there is no reason to speed on American roadways, It is illegal and it is written into law in every jurisdiction.....Almost every driver has been specially trained in safe driving and has passed strick testing in the art of driving correctly.....Every single person interviewed by law inforcement here in the southern part of this country , not only displayed one of these special driving license..... but even has stated to law inforcement officers that he or she never violates the limits of the law.....and I see little reason to disbelieve their personal accounts:wink .................Ps I have seen quite a few photos of Horge in PI tending his little fish containers outside his home{on this board} Does any one else remember these?
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[horge]

Reply to Mitch Gibbs (Dizzy)

With regard to Horge, I am not convinced he is a Filipino. If he is, he is well educated and has spent a good deal of time in other countries like the USA.

Peter Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance

Peter,

You call into question my honesty.
You even suggest doubt that a native Filipino can possess an education.


Having just posted on the need for careful speech, this is immensely hard to bear.
If this entire Forum is inured to careless personal insult, I am not, and I do not deserve this.




horge

 

[PeterIMA]

Horge, If you really are a citizen of the Philippines, you should make your true identity known. You have made some useful comments, and some that I disagree with. I sign my true name. People know who I am and my qualifications. Can't you do the same?

Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
International Marinelife Alliance

 

[MaryHM]

Peter,

Not that I should have to, but I can vouch for horge. He's been on the boards for a long time and I remember having discussions with him about his nationality and concerns years ago.

Mary

 

[dizzy]

Yeah Peter, Horge has a pretty good posting history. He also lists one of his occupations as being a fugitive, and what fugitive in his right mind is going to use his real name on an international board like this?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Horge, If you really are a citizen of the Philippines, you should make your true identity known. You have made some useful comments, and some that I disagree with. I sign my true name. People know who I am and my qualifications. Can't you do the same?

Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
International Marinelife Alliance

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[Kalkbreath]

Horge, If you really are a citizen of the Philippines, you should make your true identity known. You have made some useful comments, and some that I disagree with. I sign my true name. People know who I am and my qualifications. Can't you do the same?

Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
International Marinelife Alliance

It seem as if we have been telling these people how wrong their selfviewpoints are for quite some time.........today, we either work with them or not ....and I find very few people willing to ..............For two decades we Americans have been telling PI what and what not to do in their waters.............for that same twenty years , American citizens have plowed the seafloor for shrimp, drained coastal wetlands to build our homes, dumped our digestive effluent into every body of water in America, Overfish every stream ,river and lake on the continent ..........And this whole time has The country of PI ever taken action to stop us? They fish to feed their families each day .......We fish to feed our egos and big fat Fat bellies.........You stilll dont get it ......and most likely never will.
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[clarionreef]

Good Post Kalk,
I agree with you. The Western worlds over consumption of everything that swims with little pretense of sustainability is something of a planetary felony...
There is no justification but in the golden rule...you got gold, you rule. 5% of the population...so much of the natural worlds destruction and plunder. No argument there!
The challenge is to not be OK with that and to try and change it.

And towards that end...I already invited Horge to bring net trained Filipinos over here to teach drug using Americans in Florida how to catch fish properly. Those dopes use way too much dope!

As bad as overfishing is, premeditated, industry supported coral killing overfishing is worse and happens to be what our industry does... We're all guilty ...its just a matter of degree .But to what extent we try to improve our record of shame. That seperates us from barbarians, no?
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk,
Actually, I agree with you and others about "The Ugly American Syndrome". We certainly do have many of the same problems, and have overfished most of our fisheries in US waters. So, I agree that we are not any better than other countries with respect to fisheries management and/or fish habitat management.

My request for Horge to identify himself was not an attack on his nationality, or his level of education. Some of my best friends are Filipinos. For example, Ferdinand Cruz (IMA Field Coordinator) and Dr. Tomas Jamir (highly educated presently the Aquaculture Director at U. Mass. Dartmouth) are close friends.

From what I can gather Horge is an aquarium hobbyist (not involved in the trade). My main concern is his advocacy of the use of chemicals for collecting aquarium fish and/or fishing for food fish. If Horge was an exporter or middleman distributing cyanide or other drugs to collectors, I would deal with his concerns differently because of that activity (not becuase of his nationality, religion, or level of education).

Peter Rubec

 

[Oldguy]

Peter,
That fact that someone does not what to use the their name IMO has nothing to do with their concerns or who they work for.
If Horge is a hobbyist, exporter or middleman should make no differance on how his concerns are addressed IMO.
There can be many reason why some does not use their name.
IMO the use of a sir name and title means nothing unless I can check and make sure they are true.

 

[My Hairy Ass]

Amazing Peter, you really are quite unbelievable. Horge, I think this 'ugly American' owes you an apology.

I too shall post on here, and not use my real name. This is quite acceptable on a chat room or discussion site. You use your name, and still affiliate yourself with an organization that wants nothing to do with you (when you feel like it), and one that has told you to no longer use its name on here. This is fact. You can deny it all you want.