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MaryHM

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has its tremendous growth made land travel to Hawaii possible?

LMAO!! :lol:


I haven't heard anything. The legislators got their little bill passed so I guess their on to the next "killer" whatever.
 

Ninong

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The last I heard was that the affected area near San Diego was less than 1/2 acre in a shallow lagoon and they were considering tarping it over and killing it chemically. If you really, really want to know, here is the guy in charge: Bob Hoffman, National Marine Fisheries Service for Southern California. Phone: (562) 980-4043 E-mail: [email protected]

Genetic fingerprinting has confirmed that the C. taxifolia near San Diego is a clone of the hybrid that has spread to more than 10,000 acres in the Mediterranean. There has been speculation in the American press that the infestation off the California coast was probably caused by a careless reef aquarium hobbyist. Personally I think it is more likely that it got there in the ballast water of a container ship. It is interesting to note that the same hybrid is now established off the southern coast of Australia (not the warmer northern coast). The problem is that this particular hybrid is much more adaptable than the ordinary Caribbean strain of C. taxifolia. The hybrid, which was supposedly accidentally developed at the Stuttgart Aquarium, has been found flourishing at temperatures as low as 5 - 10 C (41- 50 F). That would make it capable of invading Monterey Bay as well as San Francisco Bay.

As you probably already know, cuttings of this alga were sent from the Stuttgart Aquarium to several other European public aquaria in 1982, including the Monaco Aquarium. It was first discovered in the Mediterranean in 1984 just outside the Monaco Aquarium. The Monaco Aquarium insists that they have no idea how it got there even though the Monaco Aquarium is connected to the sea. All of their incoming water is filtered but I would assume that their outgoing water is untreated. In any case, the Monaco Aquarium is invoking the Bart Simpson defense: We didn't do it, nobody saw us do it and you can't prove anything.

The last I read in the French press was that they were captive breeding the Caribbean slug Elysia subornata in hopes of releasing it in the spring on a test area of infestation to see how it did. They estimate that for complete eradication they will need a density of 1,000 slugs per square meter!!! AFAIK that idea is still in the "what if" stage because Paris has not given consent. The people who came up with this idea are trying to convince the government that E. subornata will not eat anything else except Caulerpa spp. and will die off naturally once cooler water temperatures arrive in the winter.

All I can say is that it is a major problem in the Mediterranean and the concern is that it could easily spread up and down the European and African Atlantic coasts and even into the Red Sea (via the Suez canal).
 

Kalkbreath

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I am not so sure that this Algea is not a blessing to the environments it is now encroaching............... how ever unnatural this might be ......might this be a blessing to the sealife that thrive in macro algae beds....just like man made reefs attract much more sealife then the native {natural}barren seafloor....the new lush green ocean bottoms that this hybrid has blanketed are now full of life like any other caulerpa patch }Yes, non native plant species are most often not a good thing.....but neither is thousands of tons of silt and pollution , which man has introduced in these same waters . Most accounts this species is taking hold in the unnatural silted seafloor. How is this green gift any different then a similar highly productive nursery bed of caulerpa in Florida? Or anymore un natural then the highly praised artificial reefs of sunken man made garbage {ie sunken ships washing machines and tires } Think of it as a new place for baby fish and Larva of all marine creatures to multiply and thrive... the fact that this species is reclaiming barren silt bottom is something to praise not fear....98% of the seafloor worldwide is barren sand, Thats like the land on Earth being 98% desert.. Yes there is some life in the desert And I actually like the desert} But if 98% of the earth was covered in sand .{like the Ocean is}..I think I would like to see more of the green stuff........I think the few animals which would not like the new green forrest ,would be out weighed by the vast majority of sealife which will thrive in such a new habitat. Perhaps even, the increase in nursery bed type habitat would enble the greatly over harvested fish populations in California and The Med. to recover and once again thrive? can anyone explain how such a recovery of fish and wildlife could be possible without an "unnatural"increase of productivity to counter balance the huge drain man has placed on these waters?
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Ninong

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No, it's not a blessing.

It is not eaten by herbivores or invertebrates and therefore it grows unrestrained, overtaking and overgrowing everything in its path, eliminating other plants and animals in its way. It grows much larger than the C. taxifolia in the Caribbean and is able to flourish in a much wider range of habitats, from the surface all the way down to the limits of underwater vegetation, in calm lagoons or surge areas, in a wide range of temperatures, it grows in the mud of polluted harbors or it wipes out areas that were previously populated with a thriving diverse flora and fauna. It is highly toxic and therefore not eaten by herbivores. It seems to have no natural predators except in its native Caribbean habitat. And I can't emphasize enough that this particular strain is much hardier than the Caribbean C. taxifolia. It is destroying habitat and wiping out local inshore fisheries and ecosystems everywhere it appears and it has proven viritually impossible to control.

It is a very serious problem.
 

Kalkbreath

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How is it highly toxic? The areas it is over growing are dead bottom. There is no reason that it would not be just as productive as in the Atlantic. A hiding place is a hiding place , marine creatures live in Marshes to hide, reed grasses and turtle grass beds are safe haven for the larval stages of almost every east coast seacreature...
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mkirda

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Kalkbreath":2qiml8hv said:
How is it highly toxic? The areas it is over growing are dead bottom. There is no reason that it would not be just as productive as in the Atlantic. A hiding place is a hiding place , marine creatures live in Marshes to hide, reed grasses and turtle grass beds are safe haven for the larval stages of almost every east coast seacreature...

Ninong is right.

Kalk, you really need to get out more. Or whatever.
You know, I could offer to print out and send you relevant chapters of any basic Coral Reef Ecology book, along with papers that talk about the effects this algae has had on the bottoms of areas it has taken over. I could...

However, when you have formed similarly uninformed opinions in the past, and I offered to send you scientific literature that proved you were wrong, you ignored the offer.

I suggest you devour either the Birkeland volume or Sorokin volume on Coral Reef Ecology, and then visit a local university library and do a search using ArticleFirst for Calerpa taxifolia. That would give you enough to read, and should give you enough background on the subject to make an informed opinion.

That is, if you really are interested in this subject matter, rather than just trying to get under people's skins.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

Kalkbreath

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Please read your links again, you will find that they have purposely limited the research area to one location and even admitted this.Then stated that the activity of sport fishing may have influenced the data! Then have offered no true numbers between "natural" bare bottom habitat and that of the lush green forests that this Algae provides... you really think there are less fish in the Caulerpa mats in Fla, then the open sand and hard bottoms? furthermore to determine the actual fish count per meter is no easy task in the green carpets...... so when a diver swims above the thick green mats {holding his clipboard}...how is he to know whats hiding deep within the growth? The reason you will not find any published data on the current state of these newly landscaped ocean bottoms, is that the results are not what the researchers where wanting.......But what the fish and seacreatures where needing..
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Ninong

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Kalk,

I apologize if I misled you but the first link that I posted was intended as a response to your question, "How is it highly toxic?," and was a detailed analysis of the seasonal fluctuations of CYN in the Mediterranean Caulerpa taxifolia hybrid, which I believe has been reclassified as a new species: Caulerpa xenogigantia. I'm not sure if there is complete agreement on the reclassification but I have seen it referred to by that new name. I did not intend that link as any sort of a study on the spread of this alga.

I am confused as to why you keep comparing this alga to the Caribbean C. taxifolia. Its success in the Mediterranean is quite different from its original ancestors in the Caribbean and it has adapted its growth cycle to suit the seasonal differences in its new habitat to the detriment of indigenous species. It is much larger and much more robust in the Mediterranean than in the Caribbean. All of which makes me question the motives of the Stuttgart Aquarium 21 years ago in sending cuttings of their C. taxifolia to several other European aquaria. Obviously they were proud of it and considered it special. They were amazed at how colorful and hardy it was in their marine fish exhibits of two decades ago and wanted to share their good fortune.

I would like to paste the following passage from my second link above in case you missed it and then I will direct you to a few sites with more information. Unfortunately many of the scientific studies are in French; in fact, the following is a translation itself:

Adaptation:

The algae adapts to any milieu, be it a polluted port or a clean, isolated bay. It can resist hard winters, and shows vigority and density not present in the species found in tropical seas.

Coverage:

The vigorous, quasi-permanent and thick vegetable coverage achieved by C.taxifolia, easily covers a depth range from 5 to 30 m. Occasionally, this seaweed has been sighted at depths of even 100 m. C.taxifolia occupies almost any substrate; thus, wiping out other macroalgal competitor. It destroys the Posidonia meadows which play an essential role within the Mediterranean - it [Posidonia] bolsters and protects the coastline, and acts as a refuge, habitat, spawning ground and nursery for a countless numbers of species.

The algae secretes various toxins, such as caulerpenyne (not toxic to humans) but are toxic for molluscs, sea urchins, herbivorous fish and other submarine flora. In one experiment, Boudouresque (Marine Bio.Prof at the Univ. Marseilles) found that sea urchins ate their own waste and resorted to pieces of plastic, rather than touching the seaweed.

Fig. 5. C. taxifolia

This means that the algae is safe from predators. Within C. taxifolia populations there is a significant decrease in species diversity and fish biomass when compared with the Posidonia beds. Therefore, the coastal ecosystem is clearly under threat, which could result in total uniformisation of underwater populations and landscapes.


It was not my intention to debate this issue, I thought I was responding to someone who was simply uninformed and requesting information. I decided to post this last time because I didn't want to leave this as an open question for others reading this thread.

The following are good sources of more detailed information:

NATO (Program for Environment & Plan d'Action pour la Méditerranée)

University of Florida -- Here is a quote from them: Caulerpa taxifolia is a marine, green alga, a certain strain of which is invading sectors of the western coasts of the Mediterranean Sea where it grows much more robustly than it does in its native range. In the Mediterranean it has spread into thousands of hectares where it fills the water column with hundreds of tons of plant biomass per hectare. It is protected from sea urchins, fish and other herbivores by its toxicity. Caulerpa taxifolia is native to the Caribbean and other tropical seas where it grows in small patches and does not present problems. However, it was reported in 2000 that the Mediterranean Sea strain of the alga was discovered in California waters, where it is not native, and where it may spread as it has in the Mediterranean.

And finally, here is a link to 647 scientific studies on the invasive strain of C. taxifolia that is a major threat to the Mediterranean: http://www.com.univ-mrs.fr/gisposi/gist ... te2002.pdf

I hope that this information will prove informative to those who wish to learn more about this very serious problem.
 

Kalkbreath

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Coral reefs are toxic if eaten ,so are marsh grasses,Rock piles , even old ships and car tires........yet each of these" toxic" hiding places is a RARE and limited hiding place for sea creatures of all kinds.. This killer seaweed has in most cases taken barren sand bottoms {which is the condition of most of the Med.and turned them into safe havens for sealife. Yes, in limited areas it has replaced native grasses and Algae, but these are a very few limited locations... { focused on by the Scientists} Many aquarists have grown this Algae in tanks large and small......The Stugartt Aquarium had great success with it.{ it did not kill off tank mates} For years ,no one called it "TOXIC". Not until it was deemed "unwanted"by enviromentalists was that term coined. To call it Toxic is a tell tail sign that the reporters are on an underwater "witch hunt" ask them why they have not published the surveys on fish and invert populations in thes new green matts , then compared those findings to "Native" bare bottom seafloors, that were there before the green Gift?
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mkirda

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Kalkbreath":37t5dw5d said:
yet each of these" toxic" hiding places is a wonderful and important hiding place for sea creatures of all kinds.. This killer seaweed has in most cases taken barren sand bottoms {which is the condition of most of the Med.and turned them into safe havens for sealife.

Kalk,

Yet again, it is very clear you have not read even a tiny fraction of the papers involved, yet have formed an uninformed opinion that cannot withstand even the tiniest bit of critical review.

Let me simplify it for you, so you don't have to read any of those papers:

1) Nothing eats it due to its known toxicity.
2) As there are no herbivores, it grows out of control.
3) As it grows out of control, it smothers all native habitats.
4) As the bottom becomes a stand of nothing but C. taxifolia, the species diversity plummets. Productivity in terms of animal biomass also nosedives.

I don't know of any other way to make it more clear, or more simple.

Have you even seen a pond that gets choked with algae?
Do you think that that algae-choked pond is healthier and more productive than one with a balance of algae and fish and other critters?
If so, you really, really, really need to read a book that covers basic ecological concepts. It would clear up a lot of things for you.
Again, see Birkeland's or Sorokin's book. Even basic sand bottoms are an ecological niche, and are quite productive.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
"the green gift"... That got me laughing.
 

Ninong

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Originally posted by Kalk: To call it Toxic is a tell tail sign that the reporters are on an underwater "witch hunt" ask them why they have not published the surveys on fish and invert populations in thes new green matts , then compared those findings to "Native" bare bottom seafloors, that were there before the green Gift?

What reporters are you talking about? What do reporters have to do with this issue? I hope you don't believe everything you read in newspapers or even on so-called pop science websites like Discovery. They are filled with inaccuracies and distortion but they are good for a good laugh every now and then. Reporters had nothing to do with any of the references I listed.

Too bad you have such an anti-academic and anti-intellectual attitude. I can see where it will be impossible to convince you that the more than 500 scientists at more than 100 universities and scientific commissions that are studying this problem are not all part of some left wing conspiracy. The fish population surveys that you speak of have already been done. You should try reading them sometime before you post such nonsense.

Do you really think that you know more about this subject than the hundreds of Ph.D.'s who are studying it? Do you really think that the European Union and NATO are on a wild goose chase because of something some dumb reporter wrote in some stupid newspaper?

:roll:
 

Ninong

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Kalk: How is this green gift any different then a similar highly productive nursery bed of caulerpa in Florida?

University of Florida: Caulerpa taxifolia is a marine, green alga, a certain strain of which is invading sectors of the western coasts of the Mediterranean Sea where it grows much more robustly than it does in its native range. In the Mediterranean it has spread into thousands of hectares where it fills the water column with hundreds of tons of plant biomass per hectare. It is protected from sea urchins, fish and other herbivores by its toxicity. Caulerpa taxifolia is native to the Caribbean and other tropical seas where it grows in small patches and does not present problems. However, it was reported in 2000 that the Mediterranean Sea strain of the alga was discovered in California waters, where it is not native, and where it may spread as it has in the Mediterranean. http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/seagrant/cautax2.html
 

Ninong

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Kalk: How is it highly toxic?

University of Florida: Caulerpa taxifolia protects itself by producing substances that are toxic to the Mediterranean's two main macro-herbivores, sea urchins and their eggs (as well as to hamsters and mice) (Lemee et al., 1993), and the fish Sarpa salpa.

Toxicity is highly seasonal: highest in July-November, lowest in March-April. http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/seagrant/cautax2.html

P.S. -- From another study I can tell you that CYN represents 0.2% of the frond biomass in spring and fully 13% of the frond biomass in the fall. This level of CYN is some 80 times higher than other species of Caulerpa.

The algae secretes various toxins, such as caulerpenyne (not toxic to humans) but are toxic for molluscs, sea urchins, herbivorous fish and other submarine flora. In one experiment, Boudouresque (Marine Bio.Prof at the Univ. Marseilles) found that sea urchins ate their own waste and resorted to pieces of plastic, rather than touching the seaweed. http://www.com.univ-mrs.fr/basecaul/
 

Ninong

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Kalk: Yes, in limited areas it has replaced native grasses and Algae, but these are a very few limited locations... { focused on by the Scientists}

Not true. And exactly what is that "focused on by the Scientists" comment supposed to mean?

Kalk: Many aquarists have grown this Algae in tanks large and small....

Really! Where did they get it, Stuttgart or Monaco? Why do you continue to insist that the C. taxifolia in reeftanks is the same as the C. taxifolia that is causing major problems in the Mediterranean and Australia? Do you not believe the statement I posted for you from the University of Florida? Do you think the people at AIMS (Australian Institute for Marine Science) don't know what they are talking about?

Perhaps you haven't yet read "Genetic variation in the green alga Caulerpa taxifolia (Chlorophyta) in Australia and the Mediterranean" by Benzie, JAH et al. (2000), Aquatic Botany 66:131-139.
 

Ninong

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Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary Fact Sheet:
Caulerpa taxifolia




Description:
Green algae with feather-like branches, leaf is 5-65 cm in length, tropical in origin, found in Caribbean Sea and Indian Ocean, hybrid form found in Mediterranean Sea is much larger (plants up to 10 ft.), and can survive out of water for up to 10 days. It can survive in a wide variety of habitats, including sandy bottoms, rocky outcroppings, mud, and natural meadows. It can cover up to 100% of the sea bottom from 1 to 35 m and has been observed in patches up to 100m, although, at greater depths the patches are less dense. While this is a tropical species, the hybrid prefers cooler water, 10°C, but has been found thriving in temperatures of 5°C. It has been found in headlands and sheltered bays and the growth rate appears the same in polluted harbors and areas away from pollution.

The plant contains a toxin that is not harmful to humans. Most fish and invertebrates avoid it and some studies have shown it to be lethal to certain species. There are also studies suggesting that the toxin may interfere with the eggs of some marine mammals, and kill off many microscopic organisms. The plant blankets an area, pushing out the invertebrates, fish, and native algae.

History:
This plant is often used in saltwater aquariums, home and public, because it is hearty, and has a bright green color that compliments the colorings of tropical fish. It was used at the Stuttgart Aquarium in Germany and a heartier hybrid was unknowingly produced and then shared with several other marine institutions. It is believed to have been leaked into the environment from the Oceanographic Museum in Monaco (although they deny this) and has spread at a quick pace.

In the Mediterranean, what started as 1meter2 has spread to over 2.5 acres in less than 5 years. It now covers more than 10,000 acres. Dissemination takes place primarily by fragmentation.

This plant was only recently banned from sale in the U.S. It is still available over the Internet and can easily be confused with the less toxic species Caulerpa sertularioides.

Methods of Control:
Many methods to control this plant have been tested throughout the Mediterranean. Some have tried to tear up the patches of algae but one torn leaf that gets away can generate a whole new outbreak. Divers have used pumps to pull out the plant but it seems to regenerate in the same place at a rate quicker than its original growth rate. Other eradication methods include poison, smothering the algae with a cover that lets in no light, and using underwater welding devices to boil the plant. Two species of marine snail, Aplysia depilans and Elysia subornata, that attack the algae have been found. The Aplysia depilans snail contains a toxin itself and is avoided by other marine life. Neither has been tested in open water since its overall affect on the ecosystem has not been determined.

Recent Outbreak:
The recent outbreak covering 0.5 acre in a lagoon just north of San Diego was discovered in late June, 2000 by divers performing habitat monitoring surveys for a nearby power plant. The most probable cause of this outbreak is that a home aquarium was emptied into either the lagoon or a storm drain. The area has been roped off and is under 24-hour watch. Plans are underway to tarp over the area and poison the plant underneath with chlorine.



National Marine Sanctuaries | National Ocean Service | National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
U.S. Department of Commerce | NOAA Library

http://montereybay.nos.noaa.gov/researc ... lerpa.html
 

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