Regarding Seahorses and CITES

[DustinDorton]

I was under the impression that the trade would not be banned outright. Rather the nations taking part in the import/export would have to start tracking and reporting the number of seahorses.

On another note would it really be that bad if the trade in seahorses were banned? I would guess there are more than enough seahorses in the trade to continue captive breeding. Seems every public aquarium is working with them. It probably wouldnt be impossible for breeding facilities to obtain new wild animals, only much harder.

Maybe an even better arguement. How does it make you feel knowing that for every 1 sea horse collected for the aquarium trade there are about 20 that are used for TCM? Seems like a small sacrafice for aquarists when you are looking at the bigger picture.

Dustin

 

[naesco]

On this Socialism thing, I should make myself clear.

Industry it is your source of income now and in the future. If you continue your dated attititude in approaching issues like the seahorse issue and more importantly the use of cyanide on the reefs, Governments will step in and do something.

The way you can keep the "Socialist reef huggers" from ruining your business is to do something about it NOW BEFORE they do.

Your denial that there are problems and your inability to organize yourselves together to protect the reef and your business will do you in not some phantom socialist north of your border.

What government? Please specify? The American government, Canadian government, Philippine government? Your ubiquitous references to "government" are most amusing.

As to "dated attitude"... umm do you not read any of my posts? I've been screaming for accountability, crusading for net-caught, sustainably harvested fishes, I only buy what I believe to be net caughts, I gave CASH MONEY to the MSI Net Fund -- I contribute to this forum, ARC, MASNA and I educate hobbyists in my shop. Just how am I working against reform, please?

Jenn

Jenn the answer is your government.
This and the previous post is not addressed to you but the industry.

Show me where industry is accountable for anything. Presently, they knowingly buy cyanide caught fish without any accountability.

Show me any interest in net caught sustainably harvested fishes by industry. The truth is the only thing they are interested in is the Almighty US dollar. They care nothing for the fact that they are destroying the reefs and its inhabitants in the very countries that need help.

What did industry contribute to Mary's fund even though it was advertised here and RC: pennies!! Do we have to ask how much industry has financially supported MAC, CORL, Greeenpeace etc.

Education, eh!!
Lets look at industry's most recent contribution by its flagship TETRA!!
And what was industry's reaction?? Did they phone, write and email Tetra and complain about the damage that 10 minute segment did to our hobby and their industry. No, they decorated their little LFS with Nemo adverts, filled their tanks with clowns and blue tangs and welcomed Nemo Moms and their brats.

The time has come for reform minded industry and hobbyists to get off the boards and into action. Demand industry reform. Meet with government to let them know what is happening. Meet with like minded reform groups like Greenpeace and enlist their support.

 

[blue_hula]

Man who can't get it up, needs dried ground up sea horse to help get it up for him.

Actually, the major application of seahorses is in the treatment of asthma and other respiratory problems.

CITES won't affect US trade in US cultured seahorses from outfits like Ocean Rider as CITES only controls international trade not internal trade.

My guess is that from countries like Australia, it will also be fairly straight forward for aquaculture operations to get the necessary export permits, not unlike the ones they are currently required to have for export of any seahorses or seahorse relatives under Australian legislation.

Where it may be more difficult to sort permits is from countries like the Philippines and Indonesia (i'm ignoring the whole graft thing) but this is precisely where seahorse populations are most at risk - from both the traditional medicine trade and the aquarium trade. And I'm not particularly fussed who is buying them - hobbyists or traditional medicine professionals. From a conservation point of view, the end use is irrelevant. Each seahorse removed still represents yet another blow to already heavily exploited populations. And this would certainly be the case for Hippocampus kuda, Hippocampus barbouri, Hippocampus comes and other common species in the aquarium trade.

Cheers,

Blue hula

 

[naesco]

Man who can't get it up, needs dried ground up sea horse to help get it up for him.

Actually, the major application of seahorses is in the treatment of asthma and other respiratory problems.

CITES won't affect US trade in US cultured seahorses from outfits like Ocean Rider as CITES only controls international trade not internal trade.

My guess is that from countries like Australia, it will also be fairly straight forward for aquaculture operations to get the necessary export permits, not unlike the ones they are currently required to have for export of any seahorses or seahorse relatives under Australian legislation.

Where it may be more difficult to sort permits is from countries like the Philippines and Indonesia (i'm ignoring the whole graft thing) but this is precisely where seahorse populations are most at risk - from both the traditional medicine trade and the aquarium trade. And I'm not particularly fussed who is buying them - hobbyists or traditional medicine professionals. From a conservation point of view, the end use is irrelevant. Each seahorse removed still represents yet another blow to already heavily exploited populations. And this would certainly be the case for Hippocampus kuda, Hippocampus barbouri, Hippocampus comes and other common species in the aquarium trade.

Cheers,

Blue hula

Well put, Hula
Thank you

 

[mkirda]

Show me where industry is accountable for anything.

According to Kalkbreath, it does no damage whatsoever.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Show me where industry is accountable for anything.

According to Kalkbreath, it does no damage whatsoever.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

No............ according to Kalkbreath there is only impact ,where there is collection.........90% of the reefs worldwid have no collection taking place,...................Thinkabout it? Aslo , you seem to like to over look the small issue of most of ASIA is not part of CITES ..........98% of all collection is for these" horse crunchers" :wink:

 

[mkirda]

90% of the reefs worldwid have no collection taking place

Hmmm... I wonder what the source of this number is??? Sounds like it came from a certain orifice.

Can you tell me the source of this stat, Kalkbreath, telling the world that 90% of the reefs worldwide have zero collection taking place? Silly me, I was thinking that there are maybe only 10% of the reefs left in the world where collection wasn't taking place... At least that is the impression I get from reading the reports covering the status of the reefs globally.

Please let me know the source because I want to pull that paper.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Meet with like minded reform groups like Greenpeace and enlist their support.

Greenpeace?

Naesco, are you out of your freakin' mind???

That is like the fur industry trying to enlist the support of PETA!!!

Greenpeace would be a great help... If you wanted to shut the industry down for good.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

90% of the reefs worldwid have no collection taking place

Hmmm... I wonder what the source of this number is??? Sounds like it came from a certain orifice.

Can you tell me the source of this stat, Kalkbreath, telling the world that 90% of the reefs worldwide have zero collection taking place? Silly me, I was thinking that there are maybe only 10% of the reefs left in the world where collection wasn't taking place... At least that is the impression I get from reading the reports covering the status of the reefs globally.

Please let me know the source because I want to pull that paper.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Gee lets see ..........name the twenty collection points that corals and aquarium fish come from ..........and subtract that amount from the 100,000 that dont.......its called think for yourself.......dont simply burp up something you heard your sisters brothers neibors pet cat said........

 

[Kalkbreath]

90% of the reefs worldwid have no collection taking place

Hmmm... I wonder what the source of this number is??? Sounds like it came from a certain orifice.

Can you tell me the source of this stat, Kalkbreath, telling the world that 90% of the reefs worldwide have zero collection taking place? Silly me, I was thinking that there are maybe only 10% of the reefs left in the world where collection wasn't taking place... At least that is the impression I get from reading the reports covering the status of the reefs globally.

Please let me know the source because I want to pull that paper.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Gee lets see ..........name the twenty collection points that corals and aquarium fish come from ..........and subtract that amount from the 100,000 that dont.......its called think for yourself.......dont simply burp up something you heard your sisters brothers neibors pet cat said........Less then one /thousandth of the islands in Fiji have live rock collection.......less then one/ thousandth of the islands in Tonga .....since 80% of hobby live rock collection takes place on these TWO countries...........What percent of the islands in the whole Pacific have collection for live rock?

 

[JennM]

its called think for yourself.......dont simply burp up something you heard your sisters brothers neibors pet cat said........Less then one /thousandth of the islands in Fiji have live rock

So Kalk, your own numbers are NOT something that you burped up yourself?

Somebody pass me an air freshener.... 8O

Your "think for yourself" formula for computing reef statistics is interesting, to say the least.

Kalk, do you deliberately troll, or do you really believe what you say? Enquiring minds want to know.

Using my own "think for myself" method, and not having all kinds of hard data in front of me, produced by scientists or otherwise burped up with a hairball by a family feline, thrice removed, I conclude that you are seriously underestimating the impact that this hobby and other collecting has on the world's reefs.

Whadda ya think of that?

C'mon Kalk - you can do better than that.

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

Gee lets see ..........name the twenty collection points that corals and aquarium fish come from ..........and subtract that amount from the 100,000 that dont.......its called think for yourself.......dont simply burp up something you heard your sisters brothers neibors pet cat said........Less then one /thousandth of the islands in Fiji have live rock collection.......less then one/ thousandth of the islands in Tonga .....since 80% of hobby live rock collection takes place on these TWO countries...........What percent of the islands in the whole Pacific have collection for live rock?

Kalkbreath,

Have I ever argued that live rock collection is unsustainable?
You could locally deplete it, yes, but I hardly think it unsustainable.
Earlier you said:

Get a grip, This hobby has never been show to have any effects on fish populations outside the small collection areas.

Interesting that you make claims that have been scientifically proven to be false. I.E. that Kona coast example... Have you ever bothered to read Tissot's report? I doubt it, but you should. Pretty much proves beyond a reasonable doubt that fish populations and sizes have gone down dramatically, and it has been due to marine ornamental fish collection.
Unfortunately, this is one of the few places it has been studied.

Have to add more later: I have so much mythinformation to refute here...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

its called think for yourself.......dont simply burp up something you heard your sisters brothers neibors pet cat said........Less then one /thousandth of the islands in Fiji have live rock

So Kalk, your own numbers are NOT something that you burped up yourself?

Somebody pass me an air freshener.... 8O

Your "think for yourself" formula for computing reef statistics is interesting, to say the least.

Kalk, do you deliberately troll, or do you really believe what you say? Enquiring minds want to know.

Using my own "think for myself" method, and not having all kinds of hard data in front of me, produced by scientists or otherwise burped up with a hairball by a family feline, thrice removed, I conclude that you are seriously underestimating the impact that this hobby and other collecting has on the world's reefs.

Whadda ya think of that?

C'mon Kalk - you can do better than that.

Jenn

Im not sure of the question.....There are over one thousand islands in Fiji ......only one has live rock collection .{only 1 out of 1000}

 

[Kalkbreath]

Gee lets see ..........name the twenty collection points that corals and aquarium fish come from ..........and subtract that amount from the 100,000 that dont.......its called think for yourself.......dont simply burp up something you heard your sisters brothers neibors pet cat said........Less then one /thousandth of the islands in Fiji have live rock collection.......less then one/ thousandth of the islands in Tonga .....since 80% of hobby live rock collection takes place on these TWO countries...........What percent of the islands in the whole Pacific have collection for live rock?

Kalkbreath,

Have I ever argued that live rock collection is unsustainable?
You could locally deplete it, yes, but I hardly think it unsustainable.
Earlier you said:

Get a grip, This hobby has never been show to have any effects on fish populations outside the small collection areas.

Interesting that you make claims that have been scientifically proven to be false. I.E. that Kona coast example... Have you ever bothered to read Tissot's report? I doubt it, but you should. Pretty much proves beyond a reasonable doubt that fish populations and sizes have gone down dramatically, and it has been due to marine ornamental fish collection.
Unfortunately, this is one of the few places it has been studied.

Have to add more later: I have so much mythinformation to refute here...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Yes I read the report and its not well done........In fact many things he forgot to include like the fact that there are more fish in some of the collection sites then in non collection sites milles away....or that after hobby collection and sportfishing ended in some reefs{buy fishand wildlife.......fish populations actually went down {because the groupers move back in the areas } But my point is that for twenty years "they" have been saying the area cannot support the levelof fish collection........but time has again and again proven them wrong.. Even if every fish was Gone from the collection sites.....this would translate into only a 2% fish population decline..in the Hawian Islands......because the collection areas only amount to 2% of the reefs in the Hawian Island chain....... :wink:

 

[mkirda]

Even if every fish was Gone from the collection sites.....this would translate into only a 2% fish population decline..in the Hawian Islands......because the collection areas only amount to 2% of the reefs in the Hawian Island chain....... :wink:

Like I said before, Kalkbreath, you can make all the invalid assumptions you want. All you will ever do is lie with statistics.

Tissot's report was accurate and damning.
You mention stuff he left out. You can cite this hard evidence?
If not, I will treat it as all the other crap you pull out of your rear orifice.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Even if every fish was Gone from the collection sites.....this would translate into only a 2% fish population decline..in the Hawian Islands......because the collection areas only amount to 2% of the reefs in the Hawian Island chain....... :wink:

Like I said before, Kalkbreath, you can make all the invalid assumptions you want. All you will ever do is lie with statistics.

Tissot's report was accurate and damning.
You mention stuff he left out. You can cite this hard evidence?
If not, I will treat it as all the other crap you pull out of your rear orifice.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Math is hard evidence the area of collection is only 2% of the total coastline of the Hawaiian Islands.....And the most heavily used for sport fishing,hook and line and netting for food fish.....as well as hobby collection..........Many people know of the truth behind what happened to fish populations after sport fishing and collection was stopped in what is now Marine sanctuary.........Ask Dana Riddle if you want another opinion...... :wink: Tissots report showed a constant change in fish population,where collection has taken place for twenty years........What it did not show.......was a ever decreasing level of fish . This shows that while fish population may change in collection zones ......{just like zone with another collector... groupers } Fish populations tend to remain stable over time .......His report also failed to demonstraight that that collection had any effect outside the Kona coast , in the remaining 90% of reefs on the State........Lastly could you please post a link to the report so the folks at home could read it fotr themselves?

 

[verytricky]

Dr. Amanda Vincent, head cheerleader for the welfare of seahorses, and of good ole McGill University in Montreal, even supports the appropriate taking of wild seahorses...

Dr. Amanda Vincent - Purveyor of mistruth. In the face of complete and conclusive evedence sticks to HER vision of what seahorses SHOULD be in HER world, and tough if it does not match reality.

Check out her website, and compare the information on the seahorse sites run by hobiests..... Strange that uneducated people can repeatedly do what Dr. Amanda Vincent says in not possible!

 

[verytricky]

In reality, breeders would make a lot more money on their horses selling them for TCM, because they are worth a lot more dead by the kilo, than alive by the individual.

This is JUST soooo not true.

It costs me around $20 to raise each H.Kuda or H.Reidi to 6 months. The sale of a dried 6 month old seahorse to the TCM would earn me under ONE DOLLAR!

To raise seahorses for TCM would COST me over $19 per seahorse, whereas I can sell to the general public at $75 a reidi and $50 a kuda!