[b]REEForm Notice To Industry[/b]

[Anonymous]

James--

I pointed this out in another thread. In many counties, it is against local ordinances for pet stores to sell dogs and cats. Usually based on humane society lobbying against puppy mills. If you can get enough people on the local level to get an ordinance of some sort passed, it could then be tailored toward the next level of government.

 

[kylen]

If the local route is how you wish to proceed, be very careful. In the Vancouver area there are similar proposals in front of various civic councils. If passed in current form, even owning a budgie may be illegal.

 

[JennM]

Well, James, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. If you continue to BUY from stores that buy from wholesalers that buy from exporters that buy juiced fish, you're contributing to the problem, even if you aren't buying juiced fish. That's the catch 22 as has been pointed out that even we who only buy Indo corals, are still a "part of the problem" as it were, even if we don't buy any fish - supporting the trade in Indo puts more blood on our hands. It's not a perfect way to go, but it's as good as I can make it, being in the trade.

Unfortunately, most people are still shocked to learn that cyanide is still an issue, even if they possess Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist, which has a chapter about it, and Scott Michael's Marine Fishes has a blurb about it (talks about MAC too!) - but most people feel that the information is somehow "dated" and doesn't apply now - could be that when they question stores, stores tell them that info is "dated"...

Somehow the circle of IGNORANCE has to be broken. Educate hobbyists, have them demand better livestock, ethically and sustainably caught livestock - eventually demand will trickle down the chain -- but alas, the CONSUMER wants the cheapest fish at the cheapest price -- so in the end the almighty dollar usually has the last word -- except Pollyanna types like myself who want to do it the right way, or at least as right as it can be done. What many don't realize in this trade, is that the most expensive fish is a dead fish - I pay more for fish now (but surprisingly not very much more) but I lose a lot less - at the end of the day I'm really paying less, aren't I? However some folks never do look at the big picture....

Jenn

 

[naesco]

Well, James, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. If you continue to BUY from stores that buy from wholesalers that buy from exporters that buy juiced fish, you're contributing to the problem, even if you aren't buying juiced fish. That's the catch 22 as has been pointed out that even we who only buy Indo corals, are still a "part of the problem" as it were, even if we don't buy any fish - supporting the trade in Indo puts more blood on our hands. It's not a perfect way to go, but it's as good as I can make it, being in the trade.

Unfortunately, most people are still shocked to learn that cyanide is still an issue, even if they possess Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist, which has a chapter about it, and Scott Michael's Marine Fishes has a blurb about it (talks about MAC too!) - but most people feel that the information is somehow "dated" and doesn't apply now - could be that when they question stores, stores tell them that info is "dated"...

Somehow the circle of IGNORANCE has to be broken. Educate hobbyists, have them demand better livestock, ethically and sustainably caught livestock - eventually demand will trickle down the chain -- but alas, the CONSUMER wants the cheapest fish at the cheapest price -- so in the end the almighty dollar usually has the last word -- except Pollyanna types like myself who want to do it the right way, or at least as right as it can be done. What many don't realize in this trade, is that the most expensive fish is a dead fish - I pay more for fish now (but surprisingly not very much more) but I lose a lot less - at the end of the day I'm really paying less, aren't I? However some folks never do look at the big picture....

Jenn

A major portion of REEForm's budget will be the education of the hobbyist.
We plan to have a short movie actually showing a fisher using cyanide, the immediate death that results and a later shot showing that same reef devoid of all life.
This movie will be on REEForms's website along with other information on cyanide and its use by industry.
Funds will be solicited for netting and the costs of random unannounced Cyanide Detection Testing. (CDT

 

[JennM]

How are you going to get such a movie produced?

Educating the hobbyist and getting him/her to CARE are two distinctly different things. If you had spent ANY time in the retail end of this industry, you'd know that. I do this all day every day - and most do not care. If they did, things would be changing a lot faster. Bottom line is they will only ask one question: "How much??" The vast majority will pay their money and take their chances on the cheapest prices. Why do you think the etailers do so much volume? It's not because the customer can see the animal, watch it feed, watch it swim, examine its fins for damage or parasites..... NO Siree, it's all about PRICE. The online fish is cheaper - period. Hobbyist doesn't know/see what kind of conditions the fish is held in, he doesn't have the e-clerk test his water, e-clerk (or website) doesn't even ask if the buyer has a marine aquarium. Nope - it's not about service, it's about PRICE. It's not about quality, it's about PRICE.

Come up with a CHEAPER product that happens to be net caught - then you'll turn hobbyists' heads.

Not bleedin' likely, in spite of Steve's math about the lower cost of using nets (no more having to buy the sodyum...). Besides, IMO divers using nets deserve more pay for better quality, and that higher price at the source is going to trickle right down the chain of custody.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

wayne,
It sounds like you are going to stage the use of cyanide in order to get the results you want. Faking this type of stuff is exactly the kind of thing that destroys the credibility of a movement. If you proceed like that I guarantee you that you will fail. Another option would be to go over to the Philippines and tell the fishers that you are looking to shut them down and do they mind letting you photograph them in illegal acts. Good luck with your flawed plan. Not

 

[kylen]

Jenn,

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding (imagine the flashing lights at the same time). You nailed that on the head. What does it cost. Imagine how that premise has no boundaries.

I will give you a little anecdote with a customer of mine. The store was begged by the concerned hobbiests that frequent the store to purchase and carry captive bred clowns. When the time came that they were available, a particular customer visited the store to make the purchase. What was not so surprising (to me at least) was that the hobbiest balked at the captive bred clown in favour of the wild caught clown because it was cheaper. I have heard this from more than one of my customers. It is all about the price.

Here is a quote from another BB (edited for store names);

"I am curious as to where they got them from though, we all know Blue Tangs are usually cyanide caught, having so many young ones not doing well, it seems that perhaps their supplier isn't telling them the whole truth.
That being said, I don't know much if anything about how the fish are brought in, NOR do I know for sure where those fish come from. I do know my LFS gets its shipments of fish the same days and about the same times as ****, and if ****s stuff didn't come in neither did my LFS. My LFS however admits yes some of their fish are cyanide caught, they don't like it, but people want fish that they can afford. Lets face it, how many of us would pay $99 for a guaranteed NON cyanide caught fish when we can get the same fish with out knowing the real history for $49.... I don't know about you but, my pocket book would certainly over ride the moral dilema of purchasing fish that MAY have been cyanide caught. "

That says lots from a hobbiest point of view and I don't think this is a unique view.

 

[kylen]

Dupe...sorry.

 

[naesco]

How are you going to get such a movie produced?

Educating the hobbyist and getting him/her to CARE are two distinctly different things. If you had spent ANY time in the retail end of this industry, you'd know that. I do this all day every day - and most do not care. If they did, things would be changing a lot faster. Bottom line is they will only ask one question: "How much??" The vast majority will pay their money and take their chances on the cheapest prices. Why do you think the etailers do so much volume? It's not because the customer can see the animal, watch it feed, watch it swim, examine its fins for damage or parasites..... NO Siree, it's all about PRICE. The online fish is cheaper - period. Hobbyist doesn't know/see what kind of conditions the fish is held in, he doesn't have the e-clerk test his water, e-clerk (or website) doesn't even ask if the buyer has a marine aquarium. Nope - it's not about service, it's about PRICE. It's not about quality, it's about PRICE.

Come up with a CHEAPER product that happens to be net caught - then you'll turn hobbyists' heads.

Not bleedin' likely, in spite of Steve's math about the lower cost of using nets (no more having to buy the sodyum...). Besides, IMO divers using nets deserve more pay for better quality, and that higher price at the source is going to trickle right down the chain of custody.

Jenn

And REEForm is going to put a stop to that Jenn. There will be a level playing field whether you are an online store or a LFS. No longer will online stores be allowed to bring in cheap cyanide poisoned fish to compete with stores such as yours that sell net caught. The only fish that will be available in the near future is net caught.
That is the future of the industy. That is the future of our hobby.

REEForm

 

[Anonymous]

... I am still amazed that if you have been to the Philipppines, that you didn't come back with a little more sympathy for the plight of the fisherfolk. Even MAC realizes the tremendous role the reefs have in feeding the fishers. If you shut down the ornamental industry the reefs face greater pressure to collect many of those same fish to eat. It is very likely that shutting down the trade in ornamentals will actually cause much more harm to the reefs than good. I know you have read threads that have pointed this out plenty of times...

Dizzy,

Will we as hobbyists and industry professionals be doing the fisherfolk a greater service if we don't eventually take some sort of radical action in North America provided that things don't radically change within the next few years? If we are too slow in addressing the problems of reef degradation, overfishing, etc. aren't the fisherfolk still in the same sorry condition or perhaps a much worse condition in a few years? Perhaps lighting a fire under the North American importers, suppliers and consumers feet right now is worth the risk of the temporary or permanent cessation of portions of the trade? If reform continues at the same rate that it has over the last 10-20 yrs. what will there be left to save in another 10 years? Another 20 years?

Are we significantly closer to a successful resolution of the cyanide issue in the P.I. now than we were 10 years ago for instance? Maybe so if projects like the AMDA one takes off. But conversly, would even a vividly successful reform program now significantly improve the overall condition of the reefs or just slightly turn things back in the environment's favor?

As I understand it U.S. and Canadian dollars are in part fueling the problem. I honestly don't know whether what Naesco is proposing would help or hurt in the long run if implemented. At a bare minimum we should explore the pro's and con's of what ramifications might occur if the plan were implemented, in part or whole.

For instance:
If stricter standards were imposed on imports then per fish costs could go up which might decease the number of fish purchased and result in decreased pressure on the reefs and increased concern by average (that is non-RDO-educated) hobbyists. Some people would be more concerned with the health and care of a $75 fish than a $25 fish, for instance. An increase in imported fish costs would result in greater economic feasibility of captive reproduction/rearing programs, etc...

Sincerely,
Lee

 

[dizzy]

REEForm is a movement to stop the import of fish and coral imported from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant. REEForm[/color]

Lee this all important opening statement by Wayne says it all. He is looking to stop all fish and corals coming out of the Philippines and Indo, not just to punish the bad guys. He goes on to explain in another post that they are going to make a movie with someone intentionally overdosing with cyanide so it kills the fish. And then they will find a dead reef area and imply that it was all the result of the cyanide. IMO this is similar to the police planting evidence so that they can arrest the drug dealer. While it could be argued that the drug dealer deserves to be caught we Americans just don't tolerate that type of action by the police. God help us if it ever becomes the norm. This "ends justify the means" mentality is very disturbing to me. This is not the way to bring reform. Lee this plan punishes the good people in PI and Indo as well as the bad. It also has the potential to destroy our industry. Quite frankly I am very surprised that a MASNA board member would support.

 

[dizzy]

[A major portion of REEForm's budget will be the education of the hobbyist.
We plan to have a short movie actually showing a fisher using cyanide, the immediate death that results and a later shot showing that same reef devoid of all life.
This movie will be on REEForms's website along with other information on cyanide and its use by industry.
Funds will be solicited for netting and the costs of random unannounced Cyanide Detection Testing. (CDT

The above quote would imply that Wayne is planing on killing fish and completely devoiding an area of a reef of life, just so they can make a movie that makes the industry look bad. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: This is sick.

 

[JennM]

And REEForm is going to put a stop to that Jenn. There will be a level playing field whether you are an online store or a LFS. No longer will online stores be allowed to bring in cheap cyanide poisoned fish to compete with stores such as yours that sell net caught. The only fish that will be available in the near future is net caught.
That is the future of the industy. That is the future of our hobby.

REEForm

Wayne, once again your glaring ignorance of all things related to this industry are showing through. Since many retailers buy the same juiced fish from the same wholesalers, for the same cheap prices, your statement makes no sense at all.

The REASON why Dr. Etailer can sell his stuff cheaply is because he is an Etailer. Best case scenario, he's got a warehouse somewhere - warehouse space is a LOT cheaper than retail space - less overhead = cheaper prices. Typical case scenario - Dr. Etailer doesn't even tank his own fish - he's got a call centre somewhere and a web nerd. Web nerd processes all the web orders, call center plebes take all the call centre phone orders. These people aren't the ones bagging and packing your fish --- NOOOOO - orders are forwarded to a WHOLESALER who is already making money off the backs of retailers, and orders are drop shipped to etail clients - LESS OVERHEAD - Etailer makes a profit on the shipping (which many hobbyists "forget" to factor into the cheap price). The fish was $5 less than retail but shipping was $25....... :roll:

Etailer gets a large bottom line discount from the wholesaler, after all he moves mega volume. Etailer has little overhead - a call centre could be in somebody's home or a dingy old office building - lower overhead again... he doesn't have to pay a huge water bill, or electric bill for all those pumps and metal halide lamps - because he doesn't have any! IMO for a wholesaler, a large etail operation is like a "bycatch".... a great outlet for stuff that didn't go out to the retail customers. Turn it and burn it, and get it out of the warehouse......

Wayne, you can not "level the field". It's very very unlikely that you will put the big etailers out of business either - money is the universal language, and I doubt you have more than they do.

You know what Wayne? I wouldn't even want the playing field levelled between me and an etailer - I run circles around etail. Huge circles. Quality, personal service - etailer plebe can't come to your house, no matter how good they are. IMO "levelling the field" would be bringing me down, not building them up. No thanks. Please do not do me any favours.

I still want to know how you're going to produce that movie - how you can spew all your rhetoric here and then claim to be able to produce a video that shows somebody using cyanide to kill fish and corals - YOU will be a direct cause of this. And good luck getting somebody to do it for you - you might have to get into the water and do it yourself because I don't think too many fisherfolk are going to want to mug for you. After all, you are threatening all kinds of legislation that would put them in jail for doing that - last thing they'd want to do is be "caught on tape"...

Get a reality check, Wayne - you really do not have a clue about what you are doing, or this industry in general. Again, I challenge you to clean up your own neighbourhood - if you've got all the answers, clean up Vancouver first - then maybe you'll be taken seriously.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

The movie which was a documentary on the use of cyanide already exists. We are attempting to locate it as we speak.
With the owners permission, we will edit it to a short avi a put it on our website with links to the Boards, MAC MASNA etc. The movies shows the following.
1. A Philippine fisher squirting cyanide on a pristine reefhead.
2. Within minutes dead and fish struggling to remain alive come to the surface.
3. The fisher collects fish stunned by cyanide and takes them to the beach.
4. The fisher than segregates further the dead, and dying ones and the ones that don`t make it.
5. A short of the destruction of the reef later.
I saw this documentary. Has anyone else? Do you know where REEForm can get it?
Thank you

 

[dizzy]

Wayne,
I saw that video about 20-years ago. Yes it was not pretty to watch, but you need something that shows things the way they are today. Your actions may negate all the good the NGOs have done in the 20-years since. You need to prove something is going on now. You need to prove it still exists and IMO if something that dated is all you have, you have nothing.

 

[Smyerscough]

Isn't interesting that such vocal MAC supporter has taken the focus on this board away from MAC ?

 

[Anonymous]

REEForm is a movement to stop the import of fish and coral imported from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant. REEForm.

Lee this all important opening statement by Wayne says it all. He is looking to stop all fish and corals coming out of the Philippines and Indo, not just to punish the bad guys... Lee this plan punishes the good people in PI and Indo as well as the bad. It also has the potential to destroy our industry. Quite frankly I am very surprised that a MASNA board member would support.

Dizzy,

Let's please keep MASNA out of this. I am speaking as an individual, thus I didn't put MASNA in my signature line. MASNA members/officers have views that cover the entire spectrum regarding reform issues as can be clearly seen here.

I am totally opposed to staging any emotional photo-op using poison or destructive methods. There is ample non-staged evidence to make people sick and disgusted regarding the wanton destruction of the reefs. But looking at Naesco's recent comments he isn't going to stage anything just post a previously existing film.

As for being a n opponent to the industy, this is absolutely not true. I am an opponent of destructive collecting practices. I enjoy the hobby. Without industry the hobby largely disappears. Right now industry's overall greed (present RDO company excluded) and complacency is doing more, IMO, to destroy the long term health of industry and the reefs than anything Naesco has done or is proposing to do.

Thank you for pointing out Naesco's REEForm quote. I disagree with it at this time. I am not in favor of an outright ban of P.I. and Indo. fish unless it is absolutely unavoidable. For that reason I am not a member of the REEForm movement, I want to see current reform projects succeed. Also, I do not want to see innocent people suffer for the crimes of others. However, I do feel that stateside testing in conjunction to education could be a powerful agent for invigorating the ecological reform movement and showing that the problem still does exist.

Sincerely,
Lee

 

[MaryHM]

Lee,

Thank you for acknowledging that you want to give the current reform projects time to succeed before any drastic measures are taken. I asked Wayne flat out on Sunday what he cares more about- reform done fast or reform done right. His answer was fast. I was shocked, appalled, sickened, and disgusted all at once- and believe me I let him know exactly how I felt! More good has been done in the past 2 years than in the past 20. We now have PI exporters that are 100% net caught. We now have the much needed hand netting material on its way to the Philippines. We now have the most effective net trainer in PI setting up a local NGO to procure funding to create a broader program that can implement reform much quicker than one single man going from village to village. Why Wayne refuses to acknowledge this progress and is determined to undermine it is beyond me.

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, you are now, in my eyes, equal to the Unibomber.

 

[tkhawaja]

5. On a number of occasions, I have started and led organizations to sucessfully protest where I saw unjustice.
I have travelled and have friends in almost ever state of the union, dove in most the the Caribbean Islands, the Phillippines and Taiwan.

Don't mean to rain on your parade but. . ... just call me a paranoid skeptic. You're a successful lawyer right? Yet, you don't know how to spell injustice or the proper use of past tense.

So now that the personal stuff is out of the way, lets proceed with the discussion of this most important subject.

How about we get your identity confirmed by someone we trust. Why don't you PM the admin your law firm's name. He can call 411 and get the phone number and actually talk to you. All that is besides the point, why don't you stop grand standing and join one of the existing organizations. If they are not doing what you want to do then you could run for the presidency of that organization.

Now you're gonna tell me you had a "brain fart" when you posted that message right?