Fish Mortality Study. Part 1

[Frank Lallo]

Hello All,
First off this study was done with my personal time & money which ran into the thousands. All interviews were done via phone, in person or by e-mail and included retailer's, wholesalers, middleman, private dealers. From the little mom & pop store to major retail chains. Importer's and exporter's also were included.Some 270 - 279 stores were involved. The first thing I had to do was to gain the confidence of the owner's & workers of these outlets. There biggest concearn was being blackball or threatened with law suites if they contributed. To address this I agreed not to publish or reveal any of there names, addresses, location's or cities. With that I asked each owner the following questions concearning the operation of there store.
1) How many tanks did the store have
2) Size of each tank
3) Water temp of each tank
4) Salinity, Ph, ammonia, Nitrate & Alkalinity of each tank
5) Type of filtration system used for each tank
6) Foods used & feeding times
7) Filter maintance program
8) Did they use quarintine Tanks for new fish if so Questions 1-7 including where or not these tanks were cleaned after use.

More tomorrow.

 

[dizzy]

There biggest concearn was being blackball or threatened with law suites if they contributed. To address this I agreed not to publish or reveal any of there names, addresses, location's or cities. .

Frank,
I don't exactly understand the above statement. Who were they worried about blackballing them? IMO if they were experiencing the 60% death rate on the East Coast Peter mentioned it might have been a blessing to be blackballed. Who would sue them? PETA? :?

 

[PeterIMA]

Dizzy, Just to clarify. What does the acronym PETA mean? What does that organization do?

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Peter,
PETA is the radical animals rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. While I think most of us here want to see animals treated humanely, this group has been known to go way above and beyond the call of duty. To the point of breaking the law and trying to destroy people's lives. If they thought you were killing 60% of you livestock each week they might go as far as trying to get you to hire one of them so they could gather evidence to prosecute you.

My point in the first post is that just responding to the questions outlined by Frank should get you neither blackballed or sued. If Frank was asking questions like: Name the wholesaler you buy from? Or. I have heard 70% of the fish coming from Lowlife Marines were dying within three days, is it true? Then yes you might be asking for trouble. I guess what I am trying to say is that I doubt anyone in the industry would threaten you for telling people about the details of your own operation. If you start telling people about the wholesalers you buy from by name they might object.

This is peer review right? Expect tough questions.

 

[Anonymous]

Peter,
PETA is the radical animals rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. While I think most of us here want to see animals treated humanely, this group has been known to go way above and beyond the call of duty. To the point of breaking the law and trying to destroy people's lives. If they thought you were killing 60% of you livestock each week they might go as far as trying to get you to hire one of them so they could gather evidence to prosecute you.

My point in the first post is that just responding to the questions outlined by Frank should get you neither blackballed or sued. If Frank was asking questions like: Name the wholesaler you buy from? Or. I have heard 70% of the fish coming from Lowlife Marines were dying within three days, is it true? Then yes you might be asking for trouble.I guess what I am trying to say is that I doubt anyone in the industry would threaten you for telling people about the details of your own operation.If you start telling people about the wholesalers you buy from by name they might object.

This is peer review right? Expect tough questions.

if i remember correctly, Don Dewey recieved some very clear death threats in the early '80's, from exporters/collecters who's names he had intended to publish in a 'cyanide list' in a series of editorials/articles that FAMA had run on the issue of cyanide collection

he was basically forced to stop with the dealing of the subject/investigation, and the public dissemination of the information through the magazine

 

[mkirda]

Dizzy, Just to clarify. What does the acronym PETA mean? What does that organization do?

These guys are a fringe group. They have done such fun things like tossing red paint on fur-wearing women, or broken into mink farms and let all the animals go (so they starve to death in the wild). Some of their more outrageous stunts got them into really hot water, so I'm not sure they do this sort of stuff anymore. But this is what they built their reputation on.

Most of the world just thinks that they are crazy, IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

if i remember correctly, Don Dewey recieved some very clear death threats in the early '80's, from exporters/collecters who's names he had intended to publish in a 'cyanide list' in a series of editorials/articles that FAMA had run on the issue of cyanide collection

he was basically forced to stop with the dealing of the subject/investigation, and the public dissemination of the information through the magazine

And, Mitch, if you include in your definition of 'industry' the collectors, middlemen, and exporters, then, yes, death threats have been issued repeatedly. And not just to Don Dewey.

Village heads that have stood up against the cyanide trade have been killed.
Normally, just takes a gasoline bomb underneath their nipa hut. Or a coke bottle filled with fertilizer and diesel tossed at their banca. People have been poisoned, knifed, burned, drown, etc., all for standing up against others.

Here in the US, things are less likely, but they still occur.
Heck, all you need to really ruin someone is a crappy lawsuit...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

I belong to the "other" PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals :lol:

I know someone who works with a PETA radical - one of their co-workers was given a pair of live lobsters as a gift (to be consumed with lots of garlic butter...) and the PETA person took them, and arranged to have them flown from Los Angeles BACK to Maine, and released (!!!!). One of them died on the way back... :roll: For what this person spent on air freight, they could have probably fed a nice vegan meal to about 20 homeless people....

I'm all for HUMANE treatment of animals - but not HUMAN treatment.

Back to the topic, I can see where it would have been a challenge to get people to give up information on their businesses and suppliers, for a variety of reasons. I still think that the 60% number is weirdly high - I sure wouldn't be in business with numbers like that, even on a bad day...

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

1) How many tanks did the store have
2) Size of each tank
3) Water temp of each tank
4) Salinity, Ph, ammonia, Nitrate & Alkalinity of each tank
5) Type of filtration system used for each tank
6) Foods used & feeding times
7) Filter maintance program
8) Did they use quarintine Tanks for new fish if so Questions 1-7 including where or not these tanks were cleaned after use.
More tomorrow.

OK well then this question is for vitz or Mike Kirda. If you answer the above questions and actually have the cohones to admit who you are. Who do you think the death threats will come from?

 

[John_Brandt]

If you think that the 60% average mortality statistic for East Coast retailers is difficult to believe than you should think about the total cumulative average that has been suggested.

Rubec suggests that a "reef to East Coast retail" which includes a middleman will have an average cumulative mortality of 95%.

The average cumulative mortality equation to the East Coast (with a middleman) looks like this:

50% - 30% - 30% - 30% - 30% - 60% = 95%

 

[clarionreef]

Mitch,
As our operation is handling an increasing % of invertebrates, I was thinking of a name change. "Low Life Marines" is a cool name. Can I use it?
Sincerely, Steve
owner of "Broke Ass Marines"

 

[Frank Lallo]

Dizzy...Whats there to understand. The owners of the store's were afraid that if they particapated in the study they would not be sold fish. One store in Brooklyn. Ny, was bold enough to step forward. A small mom & pop that was very well kept and helped me out. When it got out that they where actively particapating in the study there fish suppliers (2) would not deal with them anymore, Boy what a suprize. They tried to hang on but within a year were out of buss. Nice of the Indrustry don't you think. If you wait a few weeks and let a picture develop on the who, what, when, where's and how's you will understand.

Frankie

 

[Anonymous]

1) How many tanks did the store have
2) Size of each tank
3) Water temp of each tank
4) Salinity, Ph, ammonia, Nitrate & Alkalinity of each tank
5) Type of filtration system used for each tank
6) Foods used & feeding times
7) Filter maintance program
8) Did they use quarintine Tanks for new fish if so Questions 1-7 including where or not these tanks were cleaned after use.
More tomorrow.

OK well then this question is for vitz or Mike Kirda. If you answer the above questions and actually have the cohones to admit who you are. Who do you think the death threats will come from?

mitch-

for one- i do not think that the mortality figures are accurate-even with some of the transshipments i recieved years ago that arrived 100% doa (i stopped w/transshipping years ago-it's the most stupid way to get anything)

two- there was definitely a time(mebbe there still is) when a store WOULD get 'blacklisted' by suppliers if it was known that they were 'whistleblowing'(how the industry would have seen it) through participation in the study

the store prolly wouldn't have recieved death threats- the surveyor might, though...

the late Don Dewey recieved his threats from the cyanide cartel of the time, and some of the major exporters/importers, if not directly involved, may certainly have been either complicit, ar at the least, knowing of what was going on, re: the threats to Mr. Dewey

i wonder if anyone here has access to the editorials of fama from the early '80's? i had all the issues, but gave 'em away to friends before i left israel and moved back here

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
I remember sitting on the couch with Don Dewey a number of times as his bodyguard and retired policeman friend, stayed with us each time. [ with a gun in his holster ]
Remember...in this time, the cyanide trade was still hoping to keep a lid on the story. Once the story got out in article after article and photo after photo, we actually felt safer.
Steve
PS. In Manila, we got some death threats on paper and it was the subject of a police investigation.

 

[PeterIMA]

Vitz, I have copies of every FAMA back to 1980. I also have a black ribbon given to Steve Robinson as a death threat. A US retailer verbally threatened my life. I also heard about one net-caught Filipino exporter who turned purple and died after having dinner with a major Filipino exporter.
Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

I think we need to invade the Philippines after we're done with Iraq.

What a mess...

-Chip

 

[Anonymous]

I do find it somewhat ironic that the majority of LFS's who participate in the forum are on the East coast.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Wow ...........the scary thing is people actually believe this! Did you , in this "survey" ever actually see a live fish? I mean did it ever occur to you that it might be a good idea to visit at least ONE of these stores and witness first hand these fish dying left and right? Every store lies about its suppliers, its DOA rate and where its fish are from...........and keeps its suppliers a secrete..........................You were not given truthful responses to you questions ................no one ever is...........you were told what you wanted to hear................Did it ever occur to you that there is no way the hobby could survive with a RETAIL DOA rate any way near a rate of 60%? {in three days}............Please follow up on this and other so called "research" Before spilling out total nonsense for the masses to hear..........Also, amost every LA wholesaler gives a credit for any deaths greater then 20% ........and all of them would stop sending fish if the average was a 60% DOA.........please think through things before believing your own data.........as fact. :roll:

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I understand your scepticism. I believe that Frank Lallo can demonstrate that the data he gathered (showing the 60% DOA on the east coast) is correct. However, it is of interest that you believe everyone in the trade is a liar.

Peter Rubec

 

[MaryHM]

Mary,
Have to disagree with here's why.
1)most stores get a credit for DOA's.

I'm trying to consolidate the mortality stuff in this thread. The above quote was from another thread.

Frank, with all due respect, I have made my living in this industry for the past almost 15 years. The first 7 years managing and owning a retail store in Texas, and the last 8 years working in LA wholesale (4 years as a salesperson for other big importers, 4 years with my own company). You talked to 275 stores. I have spoken to easily 4 times that amount. I'm sure Eric with SDC has spoken to 10 times that amount. When I was a manager and then later owned a retail store, I never ever ever experienced anything near 60% DOA/DAA regularly. Of course there was the occasional airline mishap, but I'm talking about the average. We never transshipped, only bought from LA wholesalers (Quality Marine, Underwater World, Cortez Handcaughts, and one other I can't remember the name of). When I was working for large wholesalers (Aquatic Depot, SDC), it was my job to process credits for my customers- take the reports, give them to the owners for approval. Again, with the exception of airline mishaps and the occasional "mystery shipment", there was never any regular reports of anything near 60%. Giving regular, constant credits was not the norm. So this idea of the retailers getting credits back to cover their enormous losses doesn't make sense to me.