Fish Mortality Study. Part 1

[kylen]

Frank...couldn't have been said better. Many people tend to forget that the hobbiest is an integral part of the industry. Market forces tend to be a driving force in many industries, this one is not unique. Why else would Mary be questioning what she is doing?

 

[Kalkbreath]

There are no secrets in the industry. Peter Rubec and alot of honest hard working people have been writting about these things for many many years. The problem is the Denial not only in the industry. The store owners and hobbiest must take and equal share of the blame. The owners for buying these fish at the cheapest possible price regaurdless of there health. The hobbiest for buying such fish from these same owners dealers & distributors. What you are left with are those far and few people the likes of Mary Middlebrook, Steve Robinson to name a few here that bust there ass's bringing in High quality fish and the hobby doesn't support them. They would rather buy half dead, or doomed fish for 50 cents less and keep them for a month or two rather then spend the extra 50 cents or dollar and have a fish that at least has the potential to live for years. Shuting down the trade as you have suggested in the past I don't agree with but this is america, By doing such a thing it would only make matters much worst. What is needed is better management of the resourse by everybody including the hobbiest. This is happening very slowly I would agree but it is moving along. Your intentions are for the better I know, but you are fighting everyone. Join the very small but growing group of true hobbiest looking for reform.

Frankie

Once again ........perhaps the study being done seven years ago.........and Steve being "there" ten years ago is why your data seems impossible in todays industry............Today there are more choices then ever.............If the fish fri=om the Philippines are going out at 60% DOA........the wholesaler is going to stop buying from that Country and make purchases from any of fifteen other options.........A bicolor angel for examlple cost LESS then twice as much from Tonga , FIJI , Bali or Solomons The days of HAVING to deal with 60% DOAs is past history...............

 

[Anonymous]

and Steve being "there" ten years ago is why your data seems impossible in todays industry

10 years? Is his involvment DAILY in PI fish not enough Kalk? And what does being "there" have to do with any ones knowledge of doa/daa on this side? Please explain, I'm confused by you, yet once again.

 

[kylen]

Hey Kalk...I don't have fifteen choices to choose from. I am choosing PI fish right now because I am getting quality fish that are net caught (4 deads last night with two others that dropped overnight).

Don't forget about the other issue that others have touched upon...shipping. I have the luxury of a non-stop flight from MNL. Added to this, I can have it cleared and back to my warehouse less than two hours from wheel stop. If I look at other areas (Fiji/Tonga/Solomons), double my transit time. You know what happens then...bigger mess than PI. There are good options right now in PI.

 

[Anonymous]

Answer me this.....If the mortality is so low in these fish why is there such a big push for net caught fish ?

I do not now and have never believed that the majority of mortalities experienced are due to cyanide exposure. Shipping and handling stress is the biggest killer of marine ornamentals. The reason there is a push for net caught fish is because cyanide use is destroying the reefs.

ditto

 

[clarionreef]

and...
It is only thru village trainings that we get to adress all the issues involved in producing good fish."
Net training "is all about handling anyway, [or at least used to be] the decompression of fishes, handling, heat avoidance, ammonia issues, low oxygen problems, live well and cage systems, packing for better transit to Manila etc. etc. are all a part of the trainings that need to re-start.
The non-net training on a serious scale has denied all this handling training. All the talk about "its not cyanide its handling" implies that there was never serious handling education involved in net training and that an overly simplistic approach was taken...ie, only collecting training.
Please understand that every month that net training does not resume, handling training does not resume. Environmentally concerned people want sustainable methodology, dealers want better fish...clearly it is the net training brings in the handling training like a Trojan horse.
Futhermore, the training of divers to catch with nets is the first step in better handling, unless you think that squirting cyanide in a fishes face
has no effect on its health.
If there is no net training there is no peace on this thing.
1. Buy netcaught fish now and withhold your support from the cyanide trade.
2. Contribute to the AMDA NET FUND...we still need to fund the barrier nets to train divers.
3. or if you disagree with everyone who proposes action...at least do something more than 'talk and post' into a computer.

I believe that we are pretty much what we do. I wish we all did more.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA

 

[John_Brandt]

Hello All,
First off this study was done with my personal time & money which ran into the thousands. All interviews were done via phone, in person or by e-mail and included retailer's, wholesalers, middleman, private dealers. From the little mom & pop store to major retail chains. Importer's and exporter's also were included.Some 270 - 279 stores were involved.

From Rubec's "Cyanide-free, net-caught fish for the marine aquarium trade" 2001: "The IMA has been collecting data to document fish mortality at each step of the chain from the villages, the Manila export facility, and at North American import facilities situated in Las Vegas-Nevada, San Jose and Los Angeles-California, in the USA, and Vancouver-British Columbia, in Canada. A telephone survey by IMA, during 1997, of over 300 US aquarium fish dealers, determined that mortality at the retail level of marine fish was on average: 60% on the east coast, 35% in the mid-west, and 30% on the west coast of the USA, during the first three days after their arrival at the stores."

Peter, there appears to be a pattern of misrepresentation, confusion and exaggeration of this survey. Firstly, you state that over 300 retailers were surveyed - while Lallo states that less than 280 were surveyed. Secondly, you (and others) state that the survey is of retailers - while Lallo states that it includes importers and exporters. It is not yet clear if these are all lumped into the data to get the mortality statistic of 60% at East Coast retailers. And if Lallo does have separate statistics for importers and exporters then how do those statistics compare with your 1986(?) stats of 30% and 30% at importer and exporter?

 

[mkirda]

Firstly, you state that over 300 retailers were surveyed - while Lallo states that less than 280 were surveyed.

John,

Do you honestly think a possible difference of 20 (300-280) would make that much of a difference?

Mike

 

[John_Brandt]

Firstly, you state that over 300 retailers were surveyed - while Lallo states that less than 280 were surveyed.

John,

Do you honestly think a possible difference of 20 (300-280) would make that much of a difference?

Mike

It's not the statistical difference that matters to me Mike, it's the apparent patterns of misrepresentation in Rubec's reports that is the point. Are you not seeing this?

 

[Frank Lallo]

Getting tired of the pissing match here. John Answer me just a few simple questions if you would please.

1) Where are the results of your CDT testing ?
2) Where are the results of your Mortality Study ?
3) Where are the results of....Mac's, Amda's, Masna, World wildlife fund, nature conservancy, Greenpeace, pijac, peta, and all the rest.CDT tests & Mortality Study's.

The problem in this industry & Hobby is quite simple as I see it.

The whole bunch of them see#'s 1,2,3 is they have spread so much bullshit, misconception, and failures that nobody including themselves can beleave anything that comes out of there mouth. When grant money is on the line and one of the groups has an edge the other 10,000 must bash it, do anything they can to discredit it so they can get the grant money.

I am going to tell you one more time John. SEE THE STUDY FOR YOURSELF before commenting. Then if things do not add up or don't seem right you can bash the living hell out of ME the source !.

 

[mkirda]

It's not the statistical difference that matters to me Mike, it's the apparent patterns of misrepresentation in Rubec's reports that is the point. Are you not seeing this?

No, I'm not seeing it because I have not seen the raw data, John.

For one, I am aware that no really good study has been done on the effects of cyanide on fish at all levels of the industry. In particular, there has been no study that has tried to quantify the effects of shipping/handling stress on fish that were net-caught vs. cyanide-caught.

In absence of these studies, all we have are an admittedly few sources of information, John. Peter Rubec's numbers are the best known, most oft-quoted, and are based on observations, anecdotes and personal communications.

I recognize this, and recognize that these numbers are not ideal.

In return, I would ask you the same question: Are you not seeing this?

I do not challenge them because I have nothing to base my challenge on.
You know I do not work in the industry, and that I know little about the fish market on the US side. (Even though I have to say I learned an awful lot at IMAC from these discussions from people like Steve, yourself, Rick Pruess, etc.)

From what I learned in the Philippines from the collectors themselves, and people like Ferdie and Marivi, the numbers that Peter talks about on the PI side of the chain do not seem outrageous. Some fish, when hit with cyanide, do not tolerate it at all, and very large percentages die immediately, with similarly large percentages dying after capture and before arrival at the exporters facility. Others seem to tolerate it better, and smaller numbers die all along the way.

Depending on what species were 'observed' during the study, you could get different numbers just based on these physiological differences in fish, John. Surely anyone could understand this point...

So, getting back to Peter and his numbers:
No, I do not believe he is guilty as you are suggesting of misrepresenting the numbers.

The problem in all of this is that none of us have any sort of real data that contradict the numbers on the PI side (which is all I am interested in talking about here). So all you or I can offer is our opinion, which is neither particularly well-informed, nor backed by any sort of data.
I am not ready to address Frank's mortality study until he tells me that he is done posting his data, and I can go through it carefully.
I feel drawing any sort of conclusions based on the limited amount of data put forth so far is quite premature. (Right, Kalkbreath?)

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[flameangel1]

There are several East Coast retailers in here and none of them has supported the claims the data is making. Why is that?

I have been reading this thread and been afraid to respond to it,until the above quote. May still get blackballed for it or flamed. But am going to speak out now in response.
I DO believe Frank Lallo's DOA/DAA research !!!! Things are BETTER in the last few years and future research should prove it. But, 60% DOA--you better believe it !!!! I went to door to door delivery with the MUCH higher costs involved to cut down on that number. It has helped, but in the older days, every single order of fish was a panic as to whether it would come in mostly alive or all dead. Each and every current order of fish is still a big worry !!! I buy from the best suppliers, but the shipping end of things is TERRIBLE. If I can get the animals in alive and in reasonable shape, I can then KEEP them alive--but getting them in this way, is the BIG problem.

Why don't some of us report our losses for credit ????
That one is easy, we would be either blackballed or made to feel like we were just looking for a refund to cover freight or for free fish ... so to keep my supply lines open and suppliers "on my side", I, for one, just rarely report any loss . But, losses ARE there !!!!!!!!!!!
The dry goods and propagating are the only ways I have stayed in business this long.
And , I treat ALL animals as if they were my babies-as visitors to my shop can testify !!!!!!!!!

 

[Frank Lallo]

Thanks Mike,
As I have state 8 million times, wait see the data go thro it then comment. Thats all I ask.

Frankie

 

[John_Brandt]

Frank & Mike,

My response here may suffice for both of you.

I don't have any problem with Frank Lallo gathering data, as he did. The problem is that Rubec 2001 summarized Lallo's unpublished data and put forth statistics from that summary. Nowhere does Rubec state that these numbers might turn out to be drastically different after they are analyzed.

Frank wants me to hold off on any comments until he posts his data. But shouldn't Frank really be wanting (or wanted) Dr. Peter Rubec to hold off on any summary until he saw the raw data? You see, if Rubec's summary is valid then the raw data doesn't matter - 60% average DOA/DAA at East Coast retail is 60% average DOA/DAA at East Coast retail.

 

[Frank Lallo]

Thanks for coming forward Judy. You are the second to have stepped forward on this forum. Another 7 have sent either e-mails or private messages. If everyone would stand up and be counted like yourself we may accually get something good accomplished.

Frankie

 

[Frank Lallo]

John,
I niether control Peter or tell the man what to do.

Frankie

 

[mkirda]

Frank wants me to hold off on any comments until he posts his data.

No, not just you, but EVERYONE...

But shouldn't Frank really be wanting (or wanted) Dr. Peter Rubec to hold off on any summary until he saw the raw data?

Methinks that if Frank thought that Peter misrepresented the data, he would have said so already, John. So far, Frank does not appear to have the ability to mince his words, so I suspect that if he were angry at Peter, he would have tore him a new.... um... orifice? already.

It's funny, John. MAC asked for our patience while implementing the CDT and everyone complied. Yet when Frank asked for our indulgence so he could pull together the data and post it, ... Need I go further?

This forum is a mess this past week or so. It is so focused on negativity that the one bit of positive news has gone completely unnoticed. That's sad.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[flameangel1]

, it's the apparent patterns of misrepresentation in Rubec's reports that is the point.

Hmmmm, and I really wonder why the MAC rep doesn't seem to remember that old saying about "people in glass houses , shouldn't throw stones".

 

[clarionreef]

Judy,
It is possible that there is more than one glass house!
Steve

 

[flameangel1]

Steve,
Yes, it is very possible and all should remember that before ripping into each other, too !!!!!!