Fish Mortality Study. Part 1

[MaryHM]

I agree with Kalk. The data seems outlandish. There are several East Coast retailers in here and none of them has supported the claims the data is making. Why is that?

 

[JennM]

There is no way that any store on the east coast could survive if there was 60% mortality. I disagree that everybody in the trade is a liar - but good suppliers are definitely trade secrets, and store owners generally keep that info close to the vest.

However, I'm a "marine" store. I don't carry freshwater livestock, dog food or cat litter - I wonder if in some cases, mortality is higher in non-specialty stores, and if this could be partly because of less savvy staff and/or husbandry practices? We've all seen places that make us shake our heads... could that bring the average up? After all, a store losing 60% of their marines can still manage if they are making money hand over fist on cat food and dog collars.....

Just trying to think outside the glass box....

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

i gotta agree w/mary on this-60% is way way over what all the retail stores i've worked in ever experienced

i've worked in 4 here in the states-one in n.j. in the late '70's early '80's, and again in '99, one in mass., 95-97, one in n.h., 97-99, and the one i'm working in now, in n.j.

i also worked in retail/wholesale/didtribution/jobbered overseas (israel)

losses were not that high there, either

 

[Frank Lallo]

Kalkbreath,
In answering your question as to actually seeing dead fish.
1) Yes I have seen the dead fish, I traveled to LAX twice a week for 25 weeks 4 1/2 to 6 hours each way and meet with owners to pick up shipments. Back in New York where study first began I did the same thing with an escort from fish & wildlife.
2) Yes bad stores bring the averages up & good stores bring the averages down. I ask you, if the fish are doa or daa are they dead ? Would you rather i remove the terrible store's and only inclued the good ones just to make things look good. I would hope not because dead fish are dead fish period. Answer me this.....If the mortality is so low in these fish why is there such a big push for net caught fish ?
3)As to people lieing about deliveries, With all the heat the hoddy has taken donen't you think they would lie to bring the averages up!!!!Duh.
4) Flight delays, mishaps and the like.......Are the fish DEAD ! or maybe I should have tallied them as being in acoma wake up......DEAD FISH are DEAD fish no matter what excuse you come up with.
6) I also find it funny that in having phone conversations with some of you you have a completely different opinun about the mortality rates on the phone than you do here, I really find that interesting.

 

[MaryHM]

Answer me this.....If the mortality is so low in these fish why is there such a big push for net caught fish ?

I do not now and have never believed that the majority of mortalities experienced are due to cyanide exposure. Shipping and handling stress is the biggest killer of marine ornamentals. The reason there is a push for net caught fish is because cyanide use is destroying the reefs.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm I was an east coast retailer, and had shipments get stuck out in <32 degree weather for a day and still had less than 60% Mortality.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalkbreath,
In answering your question as to actually seeing dead fish.
1) Yes I have seen the dead fish, I traveled to LAX twice a week for 25 weeks 4 1/2 to 6 hours each way and meet with owners to pick up shipments. Back in New York where study first began I did the same thing with an escort from fish & wildlife.
2) Yes bad stores bring the averages up & good stores bring the averages down. I ask you, if the fish are doa or daa are they dead ? Would you rather i remove the terrible store's and only inclued the good ones just to make things look good. I would hope not because dead fish are dead fish period. Answer me this.....If the mortality is so low in these fish why is there such a big push for net caught fish ?
3)As to people lieing about deliveries, With all the heat the hoddy has taken donen't you think they would lie to bring the averages up!!!!Duh.
4) Flight delays, mishaps and the like.......Are the fish DEAD ! or maybe I should have tallied them as being in acoma wake up......DEAD FISH are DEAD fish no matter what excuse you come up with.
6) I also find it funny that in having phone conversations with some of you you have a completely different opinun about the mortality rates on the phone than you do here, I really find that interesting.

You have lost me again.......if you think that 60% of fish that are sent to retail stores die after three days ..................then you must also think another 20% die before being sold {due to beating each other up .......jumping out ....etc.} Also how did you get stores to respond to your survey ........every store owner I know would never reveal their sources..........you must have persuiaded them to take part with something.........perhaps this is what tainted their responses? By the way I do beleive that 98% of all pet fish salt and freshwater .........die within three months of being purchased................so yes dead equals dead.......but 99.9 percent of all food fish collected for humans also die..........and these dead fish amount to fifty times as much {By weight} from the same reefs.....do you think the government is concerned as well ? One Dead fish per square kilometer{perday} is what this hobby amounts to.........{6million fish divided by the total area of reefs by 365 days} so yes every fish is sacred........."no wait a minute.........it just a fish ?

 

[Frank Lallo]

Kalk,
Do me a favor ok, Take your head out of your ass. Take a shower to wash it off. When you have something intelligent to say rather then making a complete ass out of yourself post it and I'll reply.

Frankie

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Frank,

Welcome to the Industry Forum...Kalk is like this ALL THE TIME.



Peace,

Chip

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Frank,
Would you quit beating around the bush and be more direct with your responses?
Steve
PS. OK so humans don't cull their offspring...what else is new?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
Do me a favor ok, Take your head out of your ass. Take a shower to wash it off. When you have something intelligent to say rather then making a complete ass out of yourself post it and I'll reply.

Frankie

Frank....Frank.....frank.......would you likee to discuss any of my FACTS? ................"Survey just in .........98% 0f the people on this board think Frank has tainted the survey with his own agenda..... :wink: How ya like our little survey Frank? See the people on this board we deal with logic........... not emotional fluff .........not phone surveys.........Unless you can respond with something more then "one fish ,two fish dead fish bluefish"................all of your hard work is goig to be wasted........ Like , answer me this........The main online stores FF DF&S MC .........alll offer a ten day or so guarantee........on their fish . If one was to work out the math on 60% to 70% DOAs{remimber this is ten days.....not three} Seventy percent DOA would mean ,on average seven out of ten fish sent out would be a loss and 7 out of ten of the replacements would also be DOAs? this would mean the AVERAGE customer would require FOUR shipments to receive ONE fish alive after ten days!!! STILL THINK YOUR DATA IS ANYTHING CLOSE TO REALITY?.....Come on Frank , I did what you wished and WOW I DO FEEL better! {BUT MY EARS SMELL! :? }You have to have thought out what it would mean if your data was true?Do you really think the average online customer is requiring four shipments to land one fish? {keep in mind ALL of the online stores ship straight out of general wholesalers like LAX} 8O

 

[mkirda]

Do you really think the average online customer is requiring four shipments to land one fish? {keep in mind ALL of the online stores ship straight out of general wholesalers like LAX} 8O

Hmmm... Your head's still up there, Kalkbreath.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Frank is talking about one segment of transportation, from importer to store, you are talking about from on-line retailer to hobbyist.

Stop confusing the issues, we'll start taking you seriously. Maybe. :wink:

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

You are comparing apples and oranges. Frank is talking about one segment of transportation, from importer to store, you are talking about from on-line retailer to hobbyist.

Actually, as Kalk pointed out, the big on line shops like Fosters and the former FFE ship directly from major LA wholesalers to the hobbyist. So basically it's the same thing transportation wise as going from wholesaler to retailer. Main difference would appear to be handling, as there is a good chance a hobbyist is going to give a new arrival more TLC than a retailer would.

 

[mkirda]

Actually, as Kalk pointed out, the big on line shops like Fosters and the former FFE ship directly from major LA wholesalers to the hobbyist. So basically it's the same thing transportation wise as going from wholesaler to retailer. Main difference would appear to be handling, as there is a good chance a hobbyist is going to give a new arrival more TLC than a retailer would.

Mary,

Are the shops all getting them via FedEx overnight?
Somehow, I doubt it. I'm thinking that they would all get them via normal air-cargo routes as the rates are 2-3x less than FedEx...
Still apples and oranges, IMO...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Frank Lallo]

We all seem to be stuck on what is going on TODAY !...As I have stated This was study was done almost 7 years ago. At that time most unknowing hobbiest took whatever guest speakers at club meetings had to say as some kind of bible, or were under the impression that if he can do it, i can do it. Seeing a profit many owners began ordering fish they had no business ordering in the first place & worst still selling them to hobbiest knowing damn well they be dead in a matter of days. I am sure the older folks here know what I am talking about....The rage over the Copperbanded Buttrtfly, The Ribbon Eel's. As we all know when they first started showing up 95% of these fish were dead within a few days to a week.

 

[clarionreef]

Its more logical now Frank,
Shipping young starving chelmons, especially from outlying islands in small, hot bags has doomed them far beyond other butterflies. They simply don't live on Luzon and have the additional assault of shipping stress on them.
Without cyanide in the picture, they are still not an easy fish to produce well. They are longer without food coming from remote staging areas. Even done right, they are not for the mass buying public.
If you add cyanide to the cocktel it would be amazing to see any of these hyper fish make it at all. Their zoogeography unfortunately falls in the realm of the Eyas Empire of Cebu aquatics. That company alone provided tons, literally of cyanide to collectors thruout the Visayas...helping to ruin an entire species in the experience of this trade. He was not the only one...just the kingpin for decades.
I just got in some Chelmons from Buhol...certified of course and all dead. They should not be dealt with under 2 1/2 inches and must be shipped within 4 days of catching. Then they need to be exported quickly. Chelmon not sold within a week of collecting are doomed for the most part.

Without this one single species...the study take on a different hue. Steve

 

[Frank Lallo]

Well I tried to tell everyone wait for the figures instead of running off at the mouth before seeing anything, But Nooooooooooo..... I kind of equate it to wiping your ass before you take a dump. Was the same on Fishnet and probably always will be....There will be one difference tho. With the exception Of people like yourself, Peter, Mary, and a few others most of them will be go by the way side. Funny how thats been going on for the last 25 years or so. 8O
. Unless of course there pulling down 100k salaries for doing absolutly nothing.

Frankie

 

[clarionreef]

Frank,
Some folks here are already tired of hearing the truth and want something else.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Frank as the truth of what you have presented together with "industry's dirty little secret, cyanide" comes out the only defense of industry is denial, and all the other excuses that are no longer tolerated by reasonable thinking people.

Thank you for bringing to our attention this valuable information.

REEForm

 

[Frank Lallo]

There are no secrets in the industry. Peter Rubec and alot of honest hard working people have been writting about these things for many many years. The problem is the Denial not only in the industry. The store owners and hobbiest must take and equal share of the blame. The owners for buying these fish at the cheapest possible price regaurdless of there health. The hobbiest for buying such fish from these same owners dealers & distributors. What you are left with are those far and few people the likes of Mary Middlebrook, Steve Robinson to name a few here that bust there ass's bringing in High quality fish and the hobby doesn't support them. They would rather buy half dead, or doomed fish for 50 cents less and keep them for a month or two rather then spend the extra 50 cents or dollar and have a fish that at least has the potential to live for years. Shuting down the trade as you have suggested in the past I don't agree with but this is america, By doing such a thing it would only make matters much worst. What is needed is better management of the resourse by everybody including the hobbiest. This is happening very slowly I would agree but it is moving along. Your intentions are for the better I know, but you are fighting everyone. Join the very small but growing group of true hobbiest looking for reform.

Frankie