What's the point of striving to be 100% net caught?

[MaryHM]

We had a clown trigger discussion in some previous thread, where dizzy said he's seen baby clown triggers wholesaling for $11.99. Marivi actually has 5 tiny clown triggers on her list this week. $15 each+freight. So say I land a net caught baby trigger for around $18. I'd have to sell it for at least $30- OVER TWICE THE AMOUNT OF MY COMPETITIORS. The PTFEA exporter that I use for fill has baby clown triggers for $7.50. HALF PRICE. I could land those for about $10. Do you have any idea how tempting it is??? Any idea at all?? When my retail customers ask me for these fish that I NEVER have and I tell them, "Sorry, I only buy net caught and I can't get it." or "Yeah, I can get it net caught but it will cost you 30% more than wholesaler ABC." what do you think their response is? They take their fish order to wholesaler ABC. Sometimes I wonder what the point is to even running our fish system anymore. I can name two retailers that care about what we do and support us. The vast majority who support us don't care. Lots more say they care, but don't support us. But they would support us if we could give them everything the big boys do. So what am I to do? Honestly, what's the point of trying to be net caught if no one cares?? What's the point of me paying more for fish that no one wants to buy? I am the tiniest guppy in the LA wholesale pond. So seriously, what impact can I even have?

The "organization" that is supposed to be all about net caught fish and well managed reefs even sells out- they certify companies and tell them they can still mix in cyanide fish. All of these people want to tell me what I should/shouldn't do, how much I should pay for fish, what organization I should support....and you know the funny thing?? They are people who aren't in the industry or "industry" people who can't even support the very organizations they run around touting the virtues of. If they had to do what I do- try to make a living off of net caught- they'd change their tunes. So bottom line...why shouldn't I sell out like everyone else?

Signed,
Frustrated.

 

[Anonymous]

I apologize, Mary. I wish I could support you the way you'd like me to. If I did, though, I'd be effectively killing my business by 50-60% at least, and I can't afford to do that.

I try and order from you when I can, but without enough items to fill enough boxes to justify going to the airport, I just can't do it. My bosses need justification for what I do, no matter the profits I rake in. Hopefully once they get out of the hole they're in, they'll give me carte blanche.

I wish there was another way to fix it, but when you rely on other people, most of the time you get disappointed or burned. That's human nature.

Sincerely,

Chip

 

[Fish World1]

Mary,

I'm sorry you feel like I don't care. I understand your frustation because I have lost sales because I refuse to get those tiny clown triggers in. The customer always comes back to my shop after the cute little baby clown trigger dies (like I told them it would). When I have a choice of buying from you or saving a few dollars, I'll buy from you every time.

 

[MaryHM]

Fish World,

I do appreciate the fact that you care and that you cared enough to speak out on this thread. You're John's customer, so I don't talk to you, hence I don't know where you stand on things. Glad to hear you care!! Honestly, it makes my day when someone says they appreciate what we do and then they back that up with supporting us. Thank you very much! You've definitely helped me to feel a little less frustrated today. Maybe I won't need that valium after all

 

[clarionreef]

Well Mary,
Lets see how many 'supporters' are honest enough as Chip is to say "support yes, orders no."
Which is something but it is not support. If those 'sentient', caring beings who best read and inform themselves cannot be the basis of support, who can?
History is full of martyrs who get support after they die. Getting it alive is the hard part.
This routine is the basis of my own psychosis in fact. My own motivating factor is that I stay and strive to stay cyanide free for my own reasons. Reasons not open to debate from lower moralities and people whos extent of talent is comparing specials pages from 4 different wholesalers...and dividing their buying power among them...difusing it to meaninglessness.
This is a thread that I wish all to weigh in on. Marinelife dealers could actually do a lot if they consolidated power and acted according to a higher ethic and purpose.
We all have to pay bills, rent, salaries etc. Usually consumers take to task irresponsible business types for their behavior.
Its ironic to have some business people leading the charge for higher ethics instead of the so called "ripped off and aggrieved " public.'
To this end, enlightened business types have to reform enough of the business so that we can all compete on a level playing field...It has to be done wether the public supports it or not.
Retailers often have told me that they'd support me if only their customers would, fobbing off the responsibility for their purchases of poisoned fish on their customers. I guess I could use the same excuse and blame my customers as well. But behaving morally is too important a thing to do in life to be left up to some vote of others.
Leadership on this cannot come from the least involved and most distant from the scene of the crime. Importers deal with Manila every week and know the things that are normally hidden from the public. Perhaps the public wants them hidden so they can continue in the
enjoyment of their 'blue pill' reality. [ my apologies to the non Matrix fans].
Sorry Mary. We need to find a way to make a living without the luxury of moral laxity enjoyed by the masses and other dealers...but I obviously have few answers except to resist the industries pressure to 'sell out' in the meanwhile...and to pursue unpopular reform efforts.
Sincerely, Steve Robinson
AMDA president

ps. The AMDA board was most involved in this stuff last nite. We'll have a new web site and much to report soon.
Doing the right thing is a popular theme in the movies...but it sure is not in the trade that 'loves the sea' is it?

 

[Anonymous]

We sell 90% fish, 10% corals and inverts. So it doesn't make sense for me to do an invert only order. Price isn't really the issue, diversity is.

On the other hand, I'm not ashamed to admit that I buy my fish from the big wholeslaers in LA. But you know what? I still have extremely low losses, just by paying attention to what I order and where I order from, and not over stocking my tanks. And we have gotten some really nice high quality healthy fish in. And because our market is somewhat small, the average in shop time for most fish is over a month before it's sold, and I still don't have very many losses. I'd be glad to support or buy net caught fish, if they were avaliable, but currently I (as a customer) don't really see much difference. Yeah, I know cyanide kills the reefs, and I can't wait until the guys over there get it straightned out. But until then I 'll continue to order the healthiest fish I can find to keep people interested in the hobby. And I can live with that.

 

[MaryHM]

So then maybe there just isn't a point in being 100% net caught. Out of 3 customers responses, 2 have said they'd prefer me to have the variety instead of net caught. I'm starting to think I've been a fool for the past 4 years...

 

[Anonymous]

That's not what I said Mary. I have a hard time believing that every fish that the big wholesalers carry are juiced. Some maybe, but not most. So if they weren't juiced how were they caught? I'm assuming a net of some sort. I have yet to have a really suspicious death even after a year of doing my orders. And no I don't really know what the list of cyanide target species are, but I do pay attention to what lives and what dies, and adjust accordingly.

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
An honest survey would reveal 95% want variety over purity.
A fool? If people just want variety at any cost...the big LA dealers are the candy shops with the most candy.
Customers vote for the variety. If MAC understood that they would also frontload its development...in a commercial and professional way.
Perhaps your 'survey' here will help them to understand.

I'm having a busy day and have to continue packing. But its not because I'm netcaught only. Its cause I deliver all over the San Francisco bay area...I keep the netcaught thing down cause I don't want to scare em away. Many of them assume I get the same fish as everyone else and that I don't carry clown triggers or majestic angels cause I must have forgot to order them!

There are some however that appreciate the effort to do whats right. They brighten the day at times.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[MaryHM]

When I say 100% net caught, I mean I steer clear from buying the cyanide target species from unreliable sources. Why? Not because the fish would die on me necessarily (there are healthy cyanide caught fish), but because I have had this ridiculous notion of taking the higher ground and caring about the reefs and the collectors. I have never said that all of the fish from other wholesalers are cyanided. Not all fish are caught that way. But a lot of the popular ones are- angels, tangs, triggers. In the past I have always thought that 100% net caught was the only way to go. You either directly support the cyanide trade or you don't. 80% net caught means 20% cyanide caught. I guess 20% or 30% or 40% cyanide caught is ok with everyone. Heck, it must be. Like I said, I think I'm the fool here.

 

[Anonymous]

I also think it somewhat disingenuous and self serving to think someone is not a conscientious retailer unless they only order from Mary or Steve.
:?

 

[Anonymous]

When I say 100% net caught, I mean I steer clear from buying the cyanide target species from unreliable sources.

Why don't you have reliable sources for them?

Not all fish are caught that way.

So why not be the best at carrying those guys?

80% net caught means 20% cyanide caught.

I think what you really mean here is: 80% from reliable sources 20% from unreliable ones, correct?

 

[MaryHM]

I never said that. But if a retailer wants to support 100% net caught, unfortunately there aren't any other choices, Rover. If someone really cares about something, they don't do it half way. They do it all the way. Which is why I haven't been able to reconcile having 99% net caught, but bringing in those little baby clown triggers everyone wants right now. There are very, very, very few people willing to do net caught all the way. Can someone be conscientious about net caught if they are aware of the issues and decide that 20% cyanide caught is ok? Of course, conscientious entails other areas of the industry, but we are talking about net caught fish here.

 

[Anonymous]

Welp I haven't ordered from you in 6+ months but then I haven't ordered from ANYONE in 6+ months. However I think you got ALL my indo-pacific fish orders and all corals - your variety was enough for me at least in the last year when your fish list started to flesh out - in fact I think usually I was shorted because you ran out - we go to other sources when we have to, anyone would and you'l be seing PO's from me again in about 6 weeks.

 

[clarionreef]

Rover,
Don't worry. No body orders from us hardly!
There is little market support for doing it right as MAC has found out. The vote is in! Cyanide stays as far as the market is concerned. Every environmentalist who knows this trade already understands that. Mary and I are just mis cast in this role...hence the frustration with the appeal to ethics and purity approach.
Making the good guys stronger would just make netcaught more and more available and popular. Backing the conventional trade that mixes fish strengthens them. The people have spoken. The conventional trade wins.
Thats why I advised Mary to do whats right for her own reasons and not rely on someone elses sense of right and wrong to determine your own ethics.
Theres plenty of netcaught fish around. But the mixing of them taints it all and supports the wrong ethic.
We could mix as well...easily, daily and get it cheaper. To do that in my opinion requires dropping the struggle of trying to make the world a better place however.
Netcaught ...mindlessly, unabashedly and uncompromisingly. I just can't become a part of the cyanide trade Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Why don't you have reliable sources for them?

Rover, c'mon. You've been here a loooooong time. You know that the availability of the cyanide target species are extremely low because there aren't enough divers providing them right now. This has been explained several times on here. Five baby clown triggers from Marivi this week. FIVE. One retail customer could take that many from me- if they were even willing to pay the higher price for it being net caught.

So why not be the best at carrying those guys?

We tried that for several months. Only bringing in fish from net caught only countries. Retailers complained that they needed more variety. So we started doing species from the Philippines that are only net caught. Retailers still complained "MORE VARIETY!!". So then we started buying the cyanide target species from two of the net caught only exporters. But there aren't enough of those fish to go around. All I hear, everyday is "We need more variety!!".

I think what you really mean here is: 80% from reliable sources 20% from unreliable ones, correct?

Not sure what the inclusion of the "sources" means...

 

[Anonymous]

I hope it is okay for a hobbist to chime in here. Mary, if you are making ends meet, and fighting for a cause you believe in, why stop? You have helped raise awareness just through your posts on this board.

Of course, not all hobbiest frequent this board. I'm sure there are plenty that don't visit any board. How do these people get educated? If the LFS's don't try to educate them, then they will remain, well, unaware.

Many hobbiest don't have a clue regarding cyanide and all of it's evil. I didn't when I first got into the hobby.

I believe that most hobbiest would part with the some extra cash for clean fish if: 1. Given a choice. 2. Knew about the evils of cyanide.

Preach on Mary, you helped educate me! :wink:

Louey

 

[Anonymous]

Rover, c'mon. You've been here a loooooong time. You know that the availability of the cyanide target species are extremely low because there aren't enough divers providing them right now. This has been explained several times on here. Five baby clown triggers from Marivi this week. FIVE. One retail customer could take that many from me- if they were even willing to pay the higher price for it being net caught.

What I hear you saying is that there were only five baby triggers caught with a net last week. Every single other trigger on anyone elses list is cyanide caught. I just don't believe that.

We tried that for several months. Only bringing in fish from net caught only countries. Retailers complained that they needed more variety. So we started doing species from the Philippines that are only net caught. Retailers still complained "MORE VARIETY!!". So then we started buying the cyanide target species from two of the net caught only exporters. But there aren't enough of those fish to go around. All I hear, everyday is "We need more variety!!".

Retailers will always complain. That's what we do. To be honest I wish the Big Boys had more variety as well. It's not just you. I order from whoever has the highest quality (no puns intended), and the highest fill.

Not sure what the inclusion of the "sources" means...

You said it's either 80% net caught or 20% cyanide. Then went on to explain that you only order from reliable net caught sources, and avoid target cyanide species from unreliable sources. Indicating to me that if you had enough reliable sources for the cyanide targets you wouldn't have a problem. So you really can't say that it's 80% net caught and 20% cyanide, because the 20% is an unknown (especially without a cyanide test). So yeah I'd be happy with an 80 or 90% net caught certainty and a 10-20% uncertainty, but you can bet your booties I'll keep a sharp eye on the 20% uncertainty to do my best to turn it into a certainty. It all boils down to a crap shoot any way. Not all fish are cyanide targets, and only a certain percentage of the target species are actually caught with cyanide. You can eliminate a huge part of it just by avoiding the target species ( we don't carry very many tangs or big angels), and eliminate another huge part of it by simply talking to the person you're buying the fish from.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd also like to know how many people here just run the marine department of their store, as opposed to owning the store outright. Am I the only one?

I don't want to be blasted as an 'evil' in this debate. I have to answer for the things I do, and the bottom line is profit. My bosses want to make every single dollar they can, and I can't afford to take a morally and ethically high ground by doing that. So I have to compromise sometimes and straddle the fence. Will I avoid carrying certain species because I know how they're caught? Sure. Will I sometime bring stuff in that customers want knowing that there's sometimes a better than average chance they're juiced? Yup...I have to in order to give that customer what they want.

It's not what I want and don't want to do, it's what I have to do to make ends meet.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Smyerscough]

Mary,
(FYI we tell our customers this all the time)

Before we started ordering from you we were using the "big" names. Our DOA DAA rate was rather alarming. We would start our day by picking the dead bodies out of the tanks. I don't know what our losses were but the percentage was high.

NOW, if we have one DAA in a week we are surprised.

It wouldn't make sense to order the cheaper fish because we would lose most of them anyway (and our shirts!)


Scott

Owner Imagine Ocean