What's the point of striving to be 100% net caught?

[Fish World1]

Will I sometime bring stuff in that customers want knowing that there's sometimes a better than average chance they're juiced? Yup...I have to in order to give that customer what they want.

It's not what I want and don't want to do, it's what I have to do to make ends meet.

Peace,

Chip

Chip,

As an employee you have to do what the owner says. At least you are informed and educated about the issues. There are way too many stores (at least in this area) that the employees don't know or don't care (owners also).

As the owner I make the decisions. Yes, I have lost sales because I won't get certain things for people, but I've found out in the long run if you are honest people will come back (usually telling me I was right).

Mary,

I'm glad I could brighten your day. Hang in there.


Jeff

 

[Smyerscough]

Mary,
(FYI we tell our customers this all the time)

Before we started ordering from you we were using the "big" names. Our DOA DAA rate was rather alarming. We would start our day by picking the dead bodies out of the tanks. I don't know what our losses were but the percentage was high.

NOW, if we have one DAA in a week we are surprised.

It wouldn't make sense to order the cheaper fish because we would lose most of them anyway (and our shirts!)


Scott

Owner Imagine Ocean

Oh and you too Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Before we started ordering from you we were using the "big" names. Our DOA DAA rate was rather alarming. We would start our day by picking the dead bodies out of the tanks. I don't know what our losses were but the percentage was high.

I'd be curious to know what I'm doing different that allows me to get the same results and still use the big bad wholesalers in LA. I think it's a cop out to blame it all on tainted fish.

 

[clarionreef]

The issue with us...is the sustainability of us.
Not wether or not good screening at a wholesaler can get good fish to you or not. Of course they can if they want to.
Our trade has come under attack and has dodged bullets for other reasons...environmental reasons. Those are what leads me to do what I do.
Imagine this debate among Chinese herbal merchants discussing the ethics of trading in American snapping turtles and bear gall bladders.
I have orders for them says one. I need to make sales.
But they are illegal says the other.
But I have to take care of bills and feed my family. The gall bladders especially are in great demand and I need to make money to make my life work.
But they are American protected and smuggled. We shouldn't deal in this type of thing!
You know we would all despise the dealer/ smuggler in illegally obtained American wildlife products.
His economic determinist argument would carry no wieght and brand him as a criminal in our eyes.
There are growing numbers of Filipinos blaming our crass, overpowering and insensitive market demand in much the same way. Just like there are innocent Columbians that wish the Americans would keep their noses clean and off cocaine so that their economy could return to normal...without all the killing and corruption.
There is little defense of the cyanide trade in coral killing livestock. At least not publicly. I'm thankful for this open forum to get some American views on record...especially about the market favorability in illegal and therefore smuggled wildlife .
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

But isn't it somewhat dangerous to base one's entire livlihood on a resource controlled and maintained by another country on the other side of the world, in the first place? This hobby is a luxury after all. No one has to have a fish tank. If the Philipinos destroy their reefs and end the hobby, there is not much that we can *force* them to do about it. Not that I don't care, but I don't see anything really changing unless the change is initiated over there. Otherwise the quickest way to reform is to ban imports from there until a stateside CDT program is developed and enforced. We spend way to much time whining about the inefficiences of another country, and far too little time fixing the things that we actually have some control over. (ie airlines, handling, husbandry) One might could argue that simply being in the industry at all is supporting cyanide.

 

[mkirda]

I'd be curious to know what I'm doing different that allows me to get the same results and still use the big bad wholesalers in LA. I think it's a cop out to blame it all on tainted fish.

Rover et al,

This is quite the interesting thread from a non-industry person's perspective.

I am curious if any retailers have ever kept good enough records to be able to statistically analyze them. I'd be really interested in the results, especially if they could compare the results from different supply lines...

I know that the capture method is not everything, but after-capture handling methods that also counts for a lot. Net-caught fish, if handled improperly, can experience very high death rates.

My own impression is that the situation now has gotten to the point that more and more net-caught fish are coming into the pipeline, but the handling issues from villages to exporter are still not quite ready for prime time. There is a learning curve here. As they work these things out, the quality and the variety of the fish will increase quite a bit.

I feel like we are standing on a cusp. A year from now, I'm not sure we would be having this discussion. It is just a matter of keeping your chin up, Mary, and keep plugging along for a bit. Things will work out.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Marivi actually has 5 tiny clown triggers on her list this week. $15 each+freight. So say I land a net caught baby trigger for around $18. I'd have to sell it for at least $30- OVER TWICE THE AMOUNT OF MY COMPETITIORS.

Do you really think that you would never sell those little guys for that price? I mean you only have to sell five of them right? It's not like you have to move 300.

 

[mkirda]

Otherwise the quickest way to reform is to ban imports from there until a stateside CDT program is developed and enforced.

:roll:

Sorry, Rover... I disagree.

Banning imports will just force the fishermen to fish for something else, like grouper for the fish market. Some may fish using a hook and line, but more will just grab the squirt bottle.

I see the MO market as an better alternative to the food fish market.
So do the collectors. They can make more catching MOs than food fish in most areas... You force them to work harder, further and longer using more destructive methods when you ban Marine Ornamental collection.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. It may be a luxury to you and me, but to them, this is the difference between eating or not eating.

 

[PeterIMA]

Mary, You sound like you are having a bad day. Try to think positive, tomorrow will be a better day.

Mike, I agree with you. More emphasis needs to be expended in dealing with the way fish are handles and shipped to reduce stress and ammonia problems. Mortalities occur even with net-caught fish. More research may be needed to improve shipping methods. The MAC needs to pay attention to this and try to develop realistic standards and operations manuals for the trade.

As far as the supply of net-caught fish, I suggest that everyone reading this seriously consider donating funding for net-training or for the purchase of nets though AMDA, CORL, Mary Middlebrook or Mike Kirda. Support the efforts of Ferdinand Cruz. He is making a difference. There are now four net-caught suppliers (with close to 100% net-caught fish) that I know of. They deserve our support. It is possible to obtain net-caught fish. We are close to a critical mass that can lead to success.

Don't give up.
Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

It may be a luxury to you and me, but to them, this is the difference between eating or not eating.

Right, but if it weren't for our luxury hobby, then how would they survive? What would they do if Americans, Germans, and Japanese didn't buy all these fish?

Peace,

Chip

 

[MaryHM]

What I hear you saying is that there were only five baby triggers caught with a net last week. Every single other trigger on anyone elses list is cyanide caught. I just don't believe that.

There were probably a few more, but not the hundreds that are coming into LAX weekly now. From my understanding (and I will defer to Steve's experience on this), many of the fish we get from the Philippines come from one or two particular areas. They aren't spread out all over the place in mass concentrations. So when the baby clown triggers are in season, they're semi-concentrated in a general location and it's the same divers supplying all of the exporters. Sure, a few may wander into other areas here or there (which is probably why Marivi has 5 and Imperial has 1), but for the most part they are targeted by specific cyanide collectors in specific areas. Glenn, you know what? I wish I didn't believe it either. I was just telling Steve the other day that I wish I had the luxury of not knowing about any of this stuff or the ability to just bury my head in the sand about it. But I do know about it and I do believe it. Sucks to be me. If you think there are such a plethora of net caught fish to be had, then why is Marivi in such a bad financial position for staying true to net caught? She's paying the divers more, so why wouldn't all of those thousands of divers you think are using nets sell everything to her? Why is her availability so small, especially on target species? I'm asking you this honestly and not trying to be sarcastic. Do you even think there is a cyanide problem that is serious, or do you think it's all something we've blown out of proportion? That a few rogue divers might use it sometimes, but for the most part the fish coming out of the Philippines are clean? And what about Indonesia where there is basically no reform movement? Those fish come into LA by the thousands every week, and it is a fact that Indo has a worse cyanide problem than PI.

Do you really think that you would never sell those little guys for that price? I mean you only have to sell five of them right? It's not like you have to move 300.

I'm sure I could sell them at some point. But with my competitors selling them for $10-$20 cheaper, how long would I have to wait? Probably until they've eaten up much of their profitability in food and taking up space for weeks that could have been used to house a fish that will move faster. It's sad that I can't support the collector who took the time to do it right. But I have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Anonymous]

Banning imports will just force the fishermen to fish for something else, like grouper for the fish market. Some may fish using a hook and line, but more will just grab the squirt bottle.

I see the MO market as an better alternative to the food fish market.
So do the collectors. They can make more catching MOs than food fish in most areas... You force them to work harder, further and longer using more destructive methods when you ban Marine Ornamental collection.

I agree completely. Banning the Industry would be death to the reef. But at least it wouldn't be us that killed it though right? It's their reef, who are we to tell them what to do with it? Whenever you have a situation where one party completely depends on the participation of the other, guess which side is the one in control? I didn't necessarily say that banning was the best thing. Just that it would be the fastest. No one is forcing them to sell their fish, or to use cyanide except themselves.

 

[Anonymous]

If you think there are such a plethora of net caught fish to be had, then why is Marivi in such a bad financial position for staying true to net caught?

I don't know anything about Marivi or her finances. For all I know she's not all that good a business person to begin with. I have no idea. Marivi's problems and the existence of net caught fish aren't necessarily correlated.

She's paying the divers more, so why wouldn't all of those thousands of divers you think are using nets sell everything to her? Why is her availability so small, especially on target species?

Again, I don't know. Maybe she's in the wrong place? Maybe the other guys aren't paying as little as we think? I have no clue.

Do you even think there is a cyanide problem that is serious, or do you think it's all something we've blown out of proportion? That a few rogue divers might use it sometimes, but for the most part the fish coming out of the Philippines are clean? And what about Indonesia where there is basically no reform movement? Those fish come into LA by the thousands every week, and it is a fact that Indo has a worse cyanide problem than PI.

I simply avoid those places on the stock list. Sure the wholesalers could play the ol bait and switch but I haven't seen any evidence of it. And for the most part I trust them to sell me what they say they are. Their existence in the Industry is just as dependent on the health of the reef as any one elses is. I'm sure that cyanide is and will continue to be a problem, but honestly it is one that doesn't really affect me. I continue to order and sell quality fish. That's the best that I can do. The cyanide problem is up to them to solve.

Please don't get me wrong, I think a lot of things also need to be done at the wholesale level and I think that the wholesale segment is the key to getting it done. They are the biggest link between the region and the US hobby. Just like it doesn't make good sense for a retail shop to sell their customers inapropriate livestock, the same should be true for a wholesaler. That interaction is where the real "fish as commodities" attitude is the most prevalent. And I applaud you for your stance and the niche that you have staked out for your business. It's not price that keeps me away (ie your clown trigger example) but lack of fill and variety. So maybe you shouldn't worry too much about having to sell five clown triggers for thirty bucks. I bet someone would have bought them. How much room and food could a baby clown trigger need any way?[/quote]

 

[John_Brandt]

The "organization" that is supposed to be all about net caught fish and well managed reefs even sells out- they certify companies and tell them they can still mix in cyanide fish.

1) If you are saying that MAC tells MAC Certified facilities that they can mix cyanide-caught fish with MAC Certified fish please stop lying.

2) If you are not talking about MAC, then ignore #1 and tell us who you are talking about.

 

[Anonymous]

I am curious if any retailers have ever kept good enough records to be able to statistically analyze them. I'd be really interested in the results, especially if they could compare the results from different supply lines...

Mike - we do *sorta* we use a custom computer POS and we built in mortaility tracking for our holding system. The data isn't perfect but it has most of our mortalities including DOA, Death While in Holding, Death in Sale Tanks. The biggest flaw is keeping it current - I'm still working on the implantable biosensors that automatically give me fish status and location :wink:

However few LFS's nationwide or Petshop's for that matter use computers to their full capacity. Our major wholesaler Royal Pet, just this year finally deployed online ordering :?

 

[MaryHM]

1) If you are saying that MAC tells MAC Certified facilities that they can mix cyanide-caught fish with MAC Certified fish please stop lying.

Oh please, John. I'm not lying and you know it. A MAC Certified Facility is allowed to continue doing business as normal- in fact they don't even have to bring in one single MAC Certified fish if they don't want to. Carrying MAC Certified Fish is not a stipulation of MAC Certification for facilities. Let me put it in simple terms. MAC knows there is a serious cyanide problem. MAC certifies companies in countries where cyanide use is prevalent. MAC does not require the companies that get certified to carry MAC certified fish. In fact, MAC tells them that since there aren't enough MAC fish on line right now that it is accepted and expected that they must bring in fish from other sources. MAC may not sit down and specifically vocalize the exact words "You may be MAC certified and still carry cyanide caught fish." But they don't have to. It's built into the program already.

 

[MaryHM]

Well, I guess the answer to my question is "There isn't any."

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I guess the answer to my question is "There isn't any."

I disagree Mary. I see no reason for you to sell out unless you currently aren't making enough to stay in business. What's wrong with being a great place to get corals and inverts with a few net caught fish on the side? As more net caught fish become avaliable, and the quality and variety increase you can add more. :?

 

[devils advocate]

Mary,

Why blame MAC for the lack of net caught fish? Has the lack of net caught only been an issue since MAC's inception? Why don't you blame the past failed attempts to train the collectors?

It appears that you like to use MAC as the scapegoat for the ineffectiveness of the industry, from collector to hobbyist, to solve it's own problems of the past thirty or forty years.

 

[mkirda]

It's their reef, who are we to tell them what to do with it?

Oh, boy... Gotta love that argument...

Let's see if I can pick out an instance from history where this argument falls through...

Hitler murdered six million Jews. His country, so who are we to tell him what to do? Jeez, what were we thinking? We should never have gotten involved in WWII, according to your logic...

There are times and places to get involved, as there are times and places to let things alone. I (rather obviously) do not think this is one of those times and places where we should not get involved.
All I have to do is think back to the collector's 'Thank you's and I know I am right in this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda