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That'snot what we are saying at all. You guys are simply looking at this from a hobbyist perspective and not a business perspective. Do you think that Coca Cola buys ingredients from a compay that gives Pepsi a better price? Does Walmart buy from manufacturers that sell to Target for cheaper? No they don't. Business is about establishing relationships and pleasing your customers. The LFS is the customer of the wholesaler just like the hobbyist is the customer of the LFS or the etailer. And just like some hobbyist prefer to use the etailer (lower prices, convenience), some lfs' like to use wholesalers that provide benefits to them (don't allow cherry pickers, have high fill rates, good packing methods, don't sell to anyone with a business license, etc.) It's not about whining or limiting competition but establishing distribution channels that allow the lfs a competitive edge. It just makes good business sense.
 

naesco

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lclau":3qw5092l said:
All this complaining about etailing. Why don't we just do away with the internet and any business that may be conducted via this manner. Pretty much, this is what all of you against it are saying. If you believe this, I hope you don't shop for a single item online, or else, you're pretty much a hypocrite

Lawrence

Lawrence those very industry types who think they have a Divine right to harvest fish and coral at any cost throughout the world are the same ones that bring out Old Glory an trumpet the American free enterprise way and anyone who supports restrictions are simply socialists.

You are doing the right thing. Ignore them.
 

naesco

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Rover":22eb6n75 said:
That'snot what we are saying at all. You guys are simply looking at this from a hobbyist perspective and not a business perspective. Do you think that Coca Cola buys ingredients from a compay that gives Pepsi a better price? Does Walmart buy from manufacturers that sell to Target for cheaper? No they don't. Business is about establishing relationships and pleasing your customers. The LFS is the customer of the wholesaler just like the hobbyist is the customer of the LFS or the etailer. And just like some hobbyist prefer to use the etailer (lower prices, convenience), some lfs' like to use wholesalers that provide benefits to them (don't allow cherry pickers, have high fill rates, good packing methods, don't sell to anyone with a business license, etc.) It's not about whining or limiting competition but establishing distribution channels that allow the lfs a competitive edge. It just makes good business sense.

Rover good business sense means supporting the efforts to close down those who import cheap cyanide caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. Level the playing field. Until than you have no reason to complain, with respect. I see that the US was soundly defeated today.
 
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naesco":1l3f24to said:
Rover good business sense means supporting the efforts to close down those who import cheap cyanide caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. Level the playing field. Until than you have no reason to complain, with respect. I see that the US was soundly defeated today.

Good business sense means making the most money you possibly can every day. Good product, competitive prices, and great service.

That's all.

Peace,

Chip
 

naesco

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marillion":s5q6amhh said:
naesco":s5q6amhh said:
Rover good business sense means supporting the efforts to close down those who import cheap cyanide caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. Level the playing field. Until than you have no reason to complain, with respect. I see that the US was soundly defeated today.

Good business sense means making the most money you possibly can every day. Good product, competitive prices, and great service.

That's all.

Peace,

Chip

Wrong Chip. You must look into the future to be sucessful in business. Your business must grow or it will die on the vine.
What does the future hold for this industry?
What are you doing about it?
 
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naesco":3lc9xej9 said:
Wrong Chip. You must look into the future to be sucessful in business. Your business must grow or it will die on the vine.
What does the future hold for this industry?

Too much money is being made in this industry for it to stop. Greed drives humans, and as long as humans control this industry, it will not stop.

naesco":3lc9xej9 said:
What are you doing about it?

Good product, competitive prices, and great service.

Peace,

Chip
 

naesco

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marillion":1doz9344 said:
naesco":1doz9344 said:
Wrong Chip. You must look into the future to be sucessful in business. Your business must grow or it will die on the vine.
What does the future hold for this industry?

Too much money is being made in this industry for it to stop. Greed drives humans, and as long as humans control this industry, it will not stop.

naesco":1doz9344 said:
What are you doing about it?

Good product, competitive prices, and great service.

Peace,

So Chip what happens if you can't get the product from the Philippines and Indonesia where most of it comes from?
 
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Anonymous

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Guess he wouldn't sell any more PI or Indo then, huh? True, the industry will have to restructure if they are lost, but it won't end neasco, it'll just morph into something new. Trees still fall, seals still get clubbed, whales still get harpooned and fish still get harvested despite the efforts of PITA, Green Peace, Sierra Club, Earth first, ALF, and now you (reeForm).
 

JennM

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I'm sure this will apply to ANY industry that has brick and mortar shops trying to compete with cheap eBay/etail...

I think the problem is magnified when one is buying living things. A Maxi-jet powerhead is the same whether it's bought online or in a store... as long as the buyer knows how to use it.

It's really REALLY frustrating when people buy animals that aren't appropriate and they try to pawn them off on LFS. It's frustrating when they save $20 or $50 on a protein skimmer at Drs F & S but they can't put it together or make it work so they bring it in hoping *I* will help them.

Like I said, I have no problem with people trying to save a buck, but when I am simply the "backup" when things screw up, I get a bit annoyed.

I didn't open my doors so I could repair/replace defective goods purchased elsewhere/online, or give store credit for fish or corals that didn't work in a given tank because they weren't seen before they were purchased.

I didn't open my doors to make it easy for people to open up a sideline business to undercut me. I don't support the wholesalers who would just as soon sell to anybody to make a buck, at the expense of the regular stores that order every week, and who pay THEIR bills.

Retailers will carry on just fine if etail disappears -- however if RETAIL disappears, the etail business is as good as dead. Nobody I know got into the hobby because of some great website they saw. No, they got into it because they either saw a friend's tank, saw a public display or saw a display in a STORE that inspired them.

Like it or not, we are the back bone of the hobby and the industry, and we'll be around long after the last dot-com pisses itself into a corner with the lowest prices and no margins. We've already seen a lot of cheap etailers come and go... and it ain't over yet.

I'm worth more than the cheapest going price, and so are my customers. They appreciate the value added in having a full-service store at their disposal. I appreciate their patronage and do all that I can to serve them and see that they succeed.

Jenn
 

JennM

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naesco":3gpwp2pf said:
lclau":3gpwp2pf said:
All this complaining about etailing. Why don't we just do away with the internet and any business that may be conducted via this manner. Pretty much, this is what all of you against it are saying. If you believe this, I hope you don't shop for a single item online, or else, you're pretty much a hypocrite

Lawrence

Lawrence those very industry types who think they have a Divine right to harvest fish and coral at any cost throughout the world are the same ones that bring out Old Glory an trumpet the American free enterprise way and anyone who supports restrictions are simply socialists.

You are doing the right thing. Ignore them.

Right and Lawrence didn't say a darned thing about competition or free enterprise.

Puhlease, Wayne... you grow tiresome. There are proportionately as many Canadian importers supporting the cyande trade as there are American ones.... so stick a nice Maple Leaf beside Old Glory, as your side of the border is just as much a part of the problem as the side I live on now.

In fact my store is named after a (now defunct) store in Canada whose owner first educated me about cyanide back in the mid 80s.. and all his competitors were buying juiced fish then, and I'll bet they still are now.

The solution to the problem is not another garage-based business, Wayne, it's industry reform. Two totally different ideas altogheter.

Jenn
 
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Rover good business sense means supporting the efforts to close down those who import cheap cyanide caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia. Level the playing field.

I am quite aware of that fact. It goes hand in hand with looking into the future. If anything the drive of etail to make things cheaper and cheaper is increasing the pressure on the reef as the hobby becomes "more affordable" for a greater slice of people. Add to that the fact that etail allows these precious animals to be purchased without ever being seen, and without any face to face customer service.
 

Kalkbreath

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Actually there really is only X amount of coral . Demand for more coral does not translate into more coral being collected. CITES only allows so many to be imported. Thats it . There have actually been a decrease in total exports of coral in the last year. Being that Fiji has been made to decrease its total exports of coral. Live rock imports are up , but even CITES feels this has little impact. They CITES have not decreased the FIJI Live rock exports......... only a decrease in coral. Fish demands are also quite low historically. Today in 2004 fish imports are lower then they were ten years ago . People are keeping fish longer and placing fewer fish per gallon. Today, even with an increase in total active hobbyists, the demands on the reefs are at an all time low. There is quite a lot of room for continued growth in the hobby .........both on the Internet and on the reefs........ :wink:
 

nanocat

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This is the funniest thread ever. Some of you are completely out of touch with reality. Yes, living in LA we all know a "friend of a friend of a friend" who gets into the wholesalers. That includes a few who've posted here stating they don't allow it.

Yes, I know SEVERAL reefers who walk through the wholesalers at will. In spite of that, I still buy the majority of my SPS colonies from LFS, and frags from fellow reefers at swaps.

This whole "that's not fair" whining is hilarious. I figured out that "fair" was only a concept in kindergarten. Good grief, stop whining and either get on a plane to LA yourself, or hire someone local. Sheesh, it's better to complain about the leftover dregs and wish for "fairness" :lol: ?

And to think that I thought Pollyanna was only a movie.
 
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nanocat":1mh22l8x said:
This is the funniest thread ever. Some of you are completely out of touch with reality. Yes, living in LA we all know a "friend of a friend of a friend" who gets into the wholesalers. That includes a few who've posted here stating they don't allow it.

Yes, I know SEVERAL reefers who walk through the wholesalers at will. In spite of that, I still buy the majority of my SPS colonies from LFS, and frags from fellow reefers at swaps.

This whole "that's not fair" whining is hilarious. I figured out that "fair" was only a concept in kindergarten. Good grief, stop whining and either get on a plane to LA yourself, or hire someone local. Sheesh, it's better to complain about the leftover dregs and wish for "fairness" :lol: ?

And to think that I thought Pollyanna was only a movie.


Again this isn't about whining, it's just business. Why pay wholesale plus a jobber when you can find a wholesaler that doesn't allow jobbers. Retailers don't want to spend more than they have to any more than consumers.
 

clarionreef

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Nano,
The control and regulation of greed is vital to the sustainability of most any resource. There are permits, quotas, limits and seasons eveywhere but in the no-nothing, ignorant wonderland of the out of touch consumer. Talk about "pollyannas!"
There are no coral reefs in LA. Only fish mongers who render the complexities and controversies of wild life importation into a fleamarket for anyone with a dollar . The fact that the weakness of these mongers has been found and exploited by anyone with a hose and a bucket in his van is sad but true. You have been so very astute to point out the failings of people in the chain of supply.
You can do still more service by 'outing' the wholesalers who sell to the public. Why not? It'll prove what a 'player' you are...and how much you're in the know.
Steve
 

JennM

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That scourge is not limited to 104th street. There is a wholesaler near me that does the same. Money talks so all the best stuff goes to XXX. Walk in there on any day and you'll see all the maintenance guys in there picking stuff for their customers. The wholesaler gets around that one by imposing a minimum purchase amount.... or do they? Apparently it depends who you are.

I don't buy saltwater fish there, but since it's near the airport I used to go in and peruse the leftovers for a gem or two, but they are priced at near my own retail prices, so it's no bargain but I have been known to find a bargain or two in there, mislabled and underpriced piece here or there once in a great while.

I've seen Kalk there too, scouring the tanks for all the good stuff ;)

I mainly went there for Betta spelendens, ghost shrimp and feeder comets. Last time I walked through their door, I spent about $30 on those things- they didn't have anything else of quality or price that I was interested in buying - and when I went to settle my bill there was a letter stapled to the front of my invoice with yellow highlighter on the part that said, "Minimum cash and carry purchase is $100, otherwise a $25 packing fee will be assessed". $25 for a couple of dozen plastic bags, metal clips and a cardboard box (not a foam box, I'm local). That was the last time I darkened their door. When I saw my "sales rep" at a trade show recently she asked me why I never come around anymore, and when I told her, she was stunned. "Exceptions are made all the time!"... yeah for hose suckers who buy 2 or 4 fish at a time for that day's clients, I s'pose, or the hobbyist who sneaks in for the thrill of buying from "the inside". :roll: That told me that my brick and mortar business was far less important than the guy who still sets up saltwater tanks with crushed coral and undergravel filters (I am surprised he still has any clients, but I've gained a ton of business from his screw-ups!). That wholesaler could have potentially gained at least a part of my freshwater business when I expanded, but with that attitude, no thanks. They cut off their nose to spite their face.

Exceptions aren't limited to maintenance guys either. Anybody with any kind of business licence can shop there. I know a guy in the terrestrial plant growing business (orchids) who shopped there, and a guy with a fiberglass/boat building shop who bought there. Neither of those have a thing to do with the retail pet trade. They probably spent the obligatory $100 though :roll:

Why do these people even bother to create these "rules" if they don't bother to enforce them? I'm not whining, I just decided to take my dollars elsewhere... where my business is of value, and where the playing field is level. I'm just tired of the hypocricy. If a wholesaler allows cherry pickers, joe-off-the-street or whatnot into his facility to buy, the wholesaler should just say so. What are they afraid of? That their retail customers might leave them? Hmmmmm.....

Nanocat, your profile does not list your line of work, but I'm sure if you chose to apply our concerns here, to your line of work, you might be a bit more understanding of what we're talking about here. If you work hard at what you do, you got an education to do what you do, and you sought all the proper permissions and licences, and somebody comes along behind you without any credentials, and undermines you or subverts your livelihood, you might find cause for concern too, yes?

Jenn
 

nanocat

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I'm not saying it's fair at all that the locals get first pick, but I just think it's strange to hear so much complaining about it. You guys are obviously aware that's the way it works...why wouldn't you just hire your own local rep to do your own "first picking"? As you point out, if they're letting in practically anyone with an "in" and a business license (and they are), it can't be that hard to locate somone willing to work on a commission basis for you. You can stand your ground and yell "unfair" while you lose the best corals, or you can work within the system...however rotten you may think it is.

I'm a senior buyer for manufacturers. If everyone in Podunk North Dakota knew of some machine shop with outrageously great prices, but you had to be local to get bids, you bet I'd find someone in North Dakota to put my RFQ's out :D I can just see me going into the supply chain manager and telling him I can't get good bids, cause "those folks are just unfair" :roll:
 

FloridaPets

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Nanocat,
That's exactly the way I see it. Some of these folks are thinking this industry is the only one that works this way. This stuff happens everywhere. In fact, I've heard that Wal-mart doesn't even pay for most of their stuff they stock,... until they sell it. That'd be nice for all those small retailers now wouldn't it? Maybe we should all boycott the makers of all the items that Wal-mart sells. Oh, wait, then you wouldn't be able to buy anything. It's just not fair,...**mn Wal-Mart!!!!
Do the best you can with what you've got!!!
 

dizzy

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I see this situation somewhat differently. I see b&m stores as having the ability to determine their own fate to some degree. With all of our combined purchasing power we deserve a say in how the rules are defined. I have spoken to a lot of retailers in the past couple of years and this issue has the ability to unit us like nothing previously ever has. AMDA is currently working on an editorial to be released to the trade publications. We believe we have found a common cause that is near and dear to the heart of the folks on the frontline. We're not whining, we have set the wheels in motion and we are taking steps to help the brick and mortars level the playing field. Any b&m who is not an AMDA member should really consider spending the lousy $50 for membership. AMDA members will be informed of what we consider fair and unfair business practices, and there will be no need to air it out in public like this. It just might be the best fifty bucks you ever spent.
 
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Anonymous

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Yet you don't consider Walmart as being whiny when they demand that they be given 90 day terms on all purchase orders.
 
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