The Right Way to Go!

[Kalkbreath]

Did I decloak you, Dogfish Head? Excellent post!!

All opinions are welcome, thanks for the info. I've read the SPC site from head to toe many times a few months ago. Now thats a site filled with info.

I wasn't trying so quelsh anyones opinion. I was trying to get the topic back to what we can actually effect. We should all know the state of our planet and should strive to learn more about it. Theres many places on the net to find and talk about many different topics. This forum is about the industry behind our (MO's) hobby. I know we keep many of the same fish that are caught as food fish. I also know almost all fisheries on this planet are in poor shape. Some of the root problems are so massive that I wonder if we can ever get them under controll. But, now thats talk for another forum, sorry .

No, this issue is also about placing blame where there is due cause .......not simply creating false truths ....to increase the interests in one collectors product over another's ..... :wink:

 

[mkirda]

Boat anchoring and recreational divers touching the coral also contribute to coral decline and even net collection of fish depletes fish stocks ......the question is how much ........there are many places where recreational divers and tourists have killed the live coral by touching it.........should these people go to jail just like cyanide fishermen ?

Normally, it is more than 'touching' it. They kick it and break it, jump off boats and land in the thickets, breaking off branches, etc., etc.
This is really the fault of the boats that take out 50 people at a time- there is no way to police them. If the captains were fined a nice chuck of change, i.e. $5,000, for inadequately policing the tourists, and there was real enforcement, you can be absolutely sure that things would be different...

........Again the question is how much damage .....Food fishing with cyanide is fifty times greater then our industry .....even if every single hobby fish is juice collected {which only about ten percent are }Three million tiny reef fish verses 50,000 tones ? .........Thirty-six kilos of food fish are collected per capita in PI for export.......THATS 80 million times 36.Kilos .....Thats ten trash cans full of fish compared to one damsel .........Peter , what were the test results on green Chromis, clownfish, and damsels?What percent tested for present?

Ok, source for any of these numbers? They seem.... made up.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Any source will do .......here is the first one I found by looking tonight.....its 1998 and the population as well as total fish consumption are lower then 2002 data I Was quoting.......{that link is on another computor} http://www.fao.org/fi/fcp/en/PHL/profile.htm

 

[mkirda]

No, this issue is also about placing blame where there is due cause .......not simply creating false truths ....to increase the interests in one collectors product over another's ..... :wink:

I always thought it was about finding the problems, then finding implementable solutions to those problems. "Blame" is the furthest thing from my mind. And if one of the solutions is to help introduce and promote a 'product' that does very little to damage the environment, when all their competitor's 'product' causes 10-100x more damage, results in large amounts of 'product' death (failure to reach market) due to capture method, and in addition results in a poorer quality product (likely to die a few months post-capture due to organ damage), then OF COURSE we should promote it. This is a no-brainer.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
BTW, the link to FAO you sent- You couldn't get any useable data out of that to support your numbers. There isn't enough detail. Nice try.

 

[Anonymous]

Did I decloak you, Dogfish Head? Excellent post!!

All opinions are welcome, thanks for the info. I've read the SPC site from head to toe many times a few months ago. Now thats a site filled with info.

I wasn't trying so quelsh anyones opinion. I was trying to get the topic back to what we can actually effect. We should all know the state of our planet and should strive to learn more about it. Theres many places on the net to find and talk about many different topics. This forum is about the industry behind our (MO's) hobby. I know we keep many of the same fish that are caught as food fish. I also know almost all fisheries on this planet are in poor shape. Some of the root problems are so massive that I wonder if we can ever get them under controll. But, now thats talk for another forum, sorry .

No, this issue is also about placing blame where there is due cause .......not simply creating false truths ....to increase the interests in one collectors product over another's ..... :wink:

just an fyi:

the coral reef areas around eilat are actually cordoned off w/ropes to provide 'designated lanes' for 'snorkeler/diver traffic'

fines there are very strictly enforced, and the nature reserve authority has quite a bit of clout there(and in israel in general-the 'Society for the Protection of Nature' has been very active over there for many years

it has done absolutlely nothing to prevent the decline of any of the reef areas on Eilat's shores, though

i've been there in '71, '76, and on and off from 82-95-i'd guess that the overall life there has disappeared by at least 60% over that time.

the pollution from the city, and tourists, has been effective enough to not even have the 'coral touching' be a big enough issue

i cannot say if such is the case elsewhere, though

 

[Kalkbreath]

Regards.
Mike Kirda
BTW, the link to FAO you sent- You couldn't get any useable data out of that to support your numbers. There isn't enough detail. Nice try.

What is it that you need ? Those numbers are staggering..........That combined with the huge concentrations of cyanide that are use when food fishing ......shows plane as day that our hobby, even if every one of our hobby fish were collected with chemicals............... is so tiny that it is impossible for it to have an impact on a region so heavily poisoned by this monster of an industry .{seafood}..Thirty kilos collected for each and every of the 82 million people on those islands! Picture every person in the states of California, New york , Florida and Texas holding eighty pounds of fish over their shoulders .{even Arnold , Hillary ,Jeb and Jr from the TV show Dallas } .........Next picture all those 80 million people holding ONE tiny damsel or clown fish ..........THATS how many fish our hobby removes every twenty years! .........Our hobby has taken the blame for too long. Three million fish is a tiny some over an area as large as 25,000 square kilometers ...... Having said that , I still suggest that the sooner testing begins the better. So we can move on to measures that might actually help the reefs .......Or rather "The Right Way To Go"

 

[mkirda]

just an fyi:

the coral reef areas around eilat are actually cordoned off w/ropes to provide 'designated lanes' for 'snorkeler/diver traffic'

fines there are very strictly enforced, and the nature reserve authority has quite a bit of clout there(and in israel in general-the 'Society for the Protection of Nature' has been very active over there for many years

it has done absolutlely nothing to prevent the decline of any of the reef areas on Eilat's shores, though

i've been there in '71, '76, and on and off from 82-95-i'd guess that the overall life there has disappeared by at least 60% over that time.

the pollution from the city, and tourists, has been effective enough to not even have the 'coral touching' be a big enough issue

i cannot say if such is the case elsewhere, though

Sadly, it has been documented in many places.
Coral reefs in close proximity to development typically die off slowly, even with this sort of special protection. The problem is with the development itself, and the ensuing runoff. Pollution levels and nutrient levels spike- and that spells their doom.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

What is it that you need ? Those numbers are staggering.

Which numbers? The ones that seem made up?
Or the ones you referenced that doen't support the made-up ones?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

just an fyi:

the coral reef areas around eilat are actually cordoned off w/ropes to provide 'designated lanes' for 'snorkeler/diver traffic'

fines there are very strictly enforced, and the nature reserve authority has quite a bit of clout there(and in israel in general-the 'Society for the Protection of Nature' has been very active over there for many years

it has done absolutlely nothing to prevent the decline of any of the reef areas on Eilat's shores, though

i've been there in '71, '76, and on and off from 82-95-i'd guess that the overall life there has disappeared by at least 60% over that time.

the pollution from the city, and tourists, has been effective enough to not even have the 'coral touching' be a big enough issue

i cannot say if such is the case elsewhere, though

Sadly, it has been documented in many places.
Coral reefs in close proximity to development typically die off slowly, even with this sort of special protection. The problem is with the development itself, and the ensuing runoff. Pollution levels and nutrient levels spike- and that spells their doom.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I thought you were sure it was food fishing? There is a whole thread with you touting over fishing as the reason for decline in Jamaica and Austraila?

 

[Kalkbreath]

What is it that you need ? Those numbers are staggering.

Which numbers? The ones that seem made up?
Or the ones you referenced that doen't support the made-up ones?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

The ones that state 26 kilos of fish ...per person {all 82million persons}as collected as food fish . :wink: .......ps. the 2002 numbers are 36 kilos per person ! and the 2002 hobby fish export numbers are less then three million per year and still falling ...Better fish are comming in for the hobby from other islands {like the ones I import} . :wink:

 

[mkirda]

I thought you were sure it was food fishing? There is a whole thread with you touting over fishing as the reason for decline in Jamaica and Austraila?

No, I was pointing out that your argument that food fishing couldn't possibly be a source of harm to the reefs was... well... all wet. Development and runoff have greater effects than fishing typically. In areas with development that have been stable for decades, destructive fishing methods can tip the balance greatly, resulting in large percentages of coral cover loss. However, even in areas where development isn't happening, there are still places that have been devastated by food fishermen using illegal and destructive methods.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I thought you were sure it was food fishing? There is a whole thread with you touting over fishing as the reason for decline in Jamaica and Austraila?

No, I was pointing out that your argument that food fishing couldn't possibly be a source of harm to the reefs was... well... all wet. Development and runoff have greater effects than fishing typically. In areas with development that have been stable for decades, destructive fishing methods can tip the balance greatly, resulting in large percentages of coral cover loss. However, even in areas where development isn't happening, there are still places that have been devastated by food fishermen using illegal and destructive methods.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I never said it couldn't, Only that it has never taken place ......Due in part because the backbone of the janitors on a reef are not food items .......Like blennies , snails and hermit crabs..Food fishing for typical seafood fish without destructive collection has zero effects on the live coral. In theory, perhaps one day lawnmower blennies and algae slugs will become over collected as food items ......and your scenario will play out :wink