The Right Way to Go!

[Ad van Tage]

......................................................( snipped to the core )
So what is it then - YOUR "truth" - ?
......................................................( snipped to the core )
But for now however, let's go with the fact

"I do not dispute that cyanide collected fish are a poor product"

and ask what you think is "The right way"out here. What solutions would you offer.

My last response sums up the issue of what is the right way to go .........

So pray tell, Kalkbreath, which one of your last answers was the
"last response" you planned for this thread and the questions above?
Using such nebulous referencing only leads to confusion Kalkbreath.

How about giving your answers directly under and to my questions.
Unless of course you want to continue your trademark obfuscating.

I'll repeat:
a) What do you think is "The right way" out here?
b) What solutions do you offer?

No more blabbering please!

 

[mkirda]

Maybe Mkirta can post the photo again !Ill provide the Caption ahead of time........ This was what he found after three days of looking for cyanide damage........Wow ! There is a white area on one of the acros in my reef tank where my majestic angel has been picking at it ...........

KALKBREAD!!!!


PAY ATTENTION!!!!


For the FIFTH TIME... I DID NOT DIVE THREE DAYS LOOKING FOR CYANIDE DAMAGED CORALS.

ONE DIVE.
ONE ROLL OF FILM with 36 Exposures.

34 Shots of fishermen catching fish with nets, which is what I intended to shoot.
TWO shots of corals with obvious cyanide-induced bleaching.

I asked about crown-of-thorns: The fisherman claimed they haven't seen any in a long time.
Anchor damage- Yeah, the coral would have been broken, not bleached to the point of skeletal structure showing.
Parrotfish bite... Um, would be physical damage to the coral...
You know... Like little bite marks...
You see bite marks on that acro head?
You still think a moray would fit in amongst those branches?

All you do is repeat the same tired lines- One would think that after the first two or three times of being corrected on the same point that you'd actually get it.

Do we have to go for six? I mean, this is ridiculous!
I'm embarrassed for you.

 

[mkirda]

No more blabbering please!

That is too much to hope for, I fear...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

......................................................( snipped to the core )
So what is it then - YOUR "truth" - ?
......................................................( snipped to the core )
But for now however, let's go with the fact

"I do not dispute that cyanide collected fish are a poor product"

and ask what you think is "The right way"out here. What solutions would you offer.

My last response sums up the issue of what is the right way to go .........

So pray tell, Kalkbreath, which one of your last answers was the
"last response" you planned for this thread and the questions above?
Using such nebulous referencing only leads to confusion Kalkbreath.

How about giving your answers directly under and to my questions.
Unless of course you want to continue your trademark obfuscating.

I'll repeat:
a) What do you think is "The right way" out here?
b) What solutions do you offer?

No more blabbering please!

""The right way" is to support the people that take care of the reefs....... they will find a way to make money from it .......our hobby is the least damaging of the choices .....for the hobby to pretend that captive bred is somehow going to help the reefs is totally false.......and should not be used as a sales tactic.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Maybe Mkirta can post the photo again !Ill provide the Caption ahead of time........ This was what he found after three days of looking for cyanide damage........Wow ! There is a white area on one of the acros in my reef tank where my majestic angel has been picking at it ...........

KALKBREAD!!!!


PAY ATTENTION!!!!


For the FIFTH TIME... I DID NOT DIVE THREE DAYS LOOKING FOR CYANIDE DAMAGED CORALS.

ONE DIVE.
ONE ROLL OF FILM with 36 Exposures.

34 Shots of fishermen catching fish with nets, which is what I intended to shoot.
TWO shots of corals with obvious cyanide-induced bleaching.

I asked about crown-of-thorns: The fisherman claimed they haven't seen any in a long time.
Anchor damage- Yeah, the coral would have been broken, not bleached to the point of skeletal structure showing.
Parrotfish bite... Um, would be physical damage to the coral...
You know... Like little bite marks...
You see bite marks on that acro head?
You still think a moray would fit in amongst those branches?

All you do is repeat the same tired lines- One would think that after the first two or three times of being corrected on the same point that you'd actually get it.

Do we have to go for six? I mean, this is ridiculous!
I'm embarrassed for you.

If you had seen greater cyanide damage .........Just like someone knowing where bigfoot or nessie is located ....you would have made sure you captured the image......Actually this image could very well be cyanide.........And it illustrates how little the damage usually is ......and how it does not effect even the other side of the coral head .....let alone a seaweed farm 200meters away near the shore . If this is one squirt , how many squirts would it take to wipe out the vast expanses of living coral ....you claim are from our collectors? It would take about ten squirts to totally kill off that coral ....... :wink:

 

[JennM]

Heh Kalk, you really are a piece of work. You're making it a full-time job justifying what is wrong.

So it's "OK" that the cyanide only killed about a third of the coral in the photo? I wonder about any commensal crabs that might have been in the coral head? What about tiny infauna, what about any other inverts that made that area their home? What about the fish that darted into the coral to hide? Chances are pretty good that the fish died too, if not right away, by the time it got settled in a hobbyist's tank...

Mike - next time you're heading for PI, let me know and I'll send you a couple of extra rolls of film and you can take a bunch of piccies for our buddy Kalk - hell, I'll even pay for processing, ok?

Jeff, just because Mike didn't take a whole roll of film for your benefit, doesn't mean the damage isn't there. Heck, why don't you just go over to PI yourself and get wet and tell us what you see? Nevermind, it will all be attributed to eels, food fishermen or parrotfish... God forbid that you acknowledge that ornamental collection do *any* damage at all... :roll:

You remind me of a kid... "Johnny, why did you hit your sister?"
Johnny: "She did this, she did that...."

It's time to stop worrying about what "they" are doing, and worry about what "we" are doing. WE ARE THE ORNAMENTAL TRADE -- let's clean our own dirty laundry BEFORE we start pointing out others' dirty laundry.

Stop laying blame everywhere else, and acknowledge the warts on our own industry. Once those are fixed, THEN start pointing the finger elsewhere.

Denial is NOT a river in Egypt

Jenn

 

[Kalkbreath]

Heh Kalk, you really are a piece of work. You're making it a full-time job justifying what is wrong.

So it's "OK" that the cyanide only killed about a third of the coral in the photo? I wonder about any commensal crabs that might have been in the coral head? What about tiny infauna, what about any other inverts that made that area their home? What about the fish that darted into the coral to hide? Chances are pretty good that tso the question is is it worth he fish died too, if not right away, by the time it got settled in a hobbyist's tank...

Just pretend a coral collector came by five minutes later and removed it ......crabs and all ...........then you placed it for sale in your store?.............................................................................When a diver net collects a fish, that fish is gone from the reef.......Whether Corals are missed buy the reef, because we collected them to sell or a diver harmed the coral collecting a blue tang ...........the reef misses them the same . You are attempting to suggest that as long as we remove the coral or fish to be placed in your store ........the reef somehow wont miss it as much? We agree that some collection is good to the well being of the reefs , because it gives the natives a low impact way to "farm the reef."....... The question is how much of an effect is negligible? one or two cyanide squirts a year every square mile by our collectors harms far less coral then natural parrot fish or typhoons .......So the question is why not give attention to the real rapists of the reef?{Food fishermen} If you had the choice to stop a shoplifter or a rapist.....Which criminal act would you give the most help stopping ?.Might it be the shoplifter? If it was your store that the items were being stolen ? See the hobby is more concerned with protecting its own interests then helping the reefs from being gang raped!

Mike - next time you're heading for PI, let me know and I'll send you a couple of extra rolls of film and you can take a bunch of piccies for our buddy Kalk - hell, I'll even pay for processing, ok?

Jeff, just because Mike didn't take a whole roll of film for your benefit, doesn't mean the damage isn't there. Heck, why don't you just go over to PI yourself and get wet and tell us what you see? Nevermind, it will all be attributed to eels, food fishermen or parrotfish... God forbid that you acknowledge that ornamental collection do *any* damage at all... :roll:


Jenn

There is not that much cyanide damage in the area Mkirda was visiting ..........Do you know why ? Its because there is very little food fishing in the area......... :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

"There is not that much cyanide fishing damage in the area Mike Kirda was visitting" should be changed to say "There ISN'T much recent cyanide damage showing in the area where Mike Kirda was visitting BUT you should have seen it when they were targetting this area that they have since left as dead and moved on to a new area in the continual chase for TARGET species which leads them furthor and furthor away (not reducing Kalks ever so precious landing figures, just adding more milage, stress, cost and depletion in they're wake)."

 

[Ad van Tage]

Heh Kalk, you really are a piece of work. ..............

You remind me of a kid... "Johnny, why did you hit your sister?"
Johnny: "She did this, she did that...."

......................

Denial is NOT a river in Egypt

Jenn

My Kalkitosis doses have been sittin' around too long!!! Time for a squirt.

I'm not really into the carding thing.
But may I make one exception?

WHAT AGE ARE YOU, Kalkbreath?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Denial is NOT a river in Egypt

Jenn

I do not pretend that there is no cyanide being used by collectors for the hobby ........Based on the most current data {four years old }soewhere betwen 8 percent and 30 percent ..........in 1999 the test results found 8 percent of the fish to contain cyanide present....Due in part to the increased focus on ending cyanide fishing...{Rubic} Today in 2003 the attention on cyanide fishing has never been greater !And the increasd competition from other countries now selling fish ......... It seem to make sense that the total number of cyanide using hobby collctors is at an ALL TIME LOW........So Yes, about 8 percent of the catch in PI is most likely poison collected ............Divided those fish{8 percent of three million} by the huge area we collect from {Larger then the surface of Texas} and What you are left with is a very tiny sum indeed. :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

"There is not that much cyanide fishing damage in the area Mike Kirda was visitting" should be changed to say "There ISN'T much recent cyanide damage showing in the area where Mike Kirda was visitting BUT you should have seen it when they were targetting this area that they have since left as dead and moved on to a new area in the continual chase for TARGET species which leads them furthor and furthor away (not reducing Kalks ever so precious landing figures, just adding more milage, stress, cost and depletion in they're wake)."

Then why did mKirda miss the great expanse........?And why has no one ever photographed something so large?

 

[Kalkbreath]

"There is not that much cyanide fishing damage in the area Mike Kirda was visitting" should be changed to say "There ISN'T much recent cyanide damage showing in the area where Mike Kirda was visitting BUT you should have seen it when they were targetting this area that they have since left as dead and moved on to a new area in the continual chase for TARGET species which leads them furthor and furthor away (not reducing Kalks ever so precious landing figures, just adding more milage, stress, cost and depletion in they're wake)."

Eighty percent of the total dollars collectors recieve is from easy to collect species like green chromis, damsels , clownfish and such ........The idea that every collector is spending all day squirting after bluefaces .......is silly .........How many hour of the day do you spend ..... "netting" after Clarions Angels? You collect one if you happen to sea one .........as your collecting the bread and butter fish.

 

[Anonymous]

There ISN'T much recent cyanide damage showing in the area where Mike Kirda was visitting BUT you should have seen it when they were targetting this area that they have since left as dead and moved on to a new area in the continual chase for TARGET species which leads them furthor and furthor away (not reducing Kalks ever so precious landing figures, just adding more milage, stress, cost and depletion in they're wake)

please read it again Kalk, pay attention to my use of recent, that implies past tense. The area has regrown some what, most large heads dead, but coverred with recruits (diversity lower though). Just how long do you think a bleached coral head stays bleached before its coverred in algae and other recruits? The area doesn't have any Blue Face Angels (and hasn't for many many years), Blue Tangs, Emperor Angels and the likes for a long time (hence not much cyanide activity from MO cyanider collectors) and the groupers, wrasse and other food fish of substance where fished out even before the target MO's were even depleted (hence the lack of food fishing there). Yes, theres fish there, butterflyfish and the likes. The usual suspects when talking about a reef after cyaniders.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Heh Kalk, you really are a piece of work. ..............

You remind me of a kid... "Johnny, why did you hit your sister?"
Johnny: "She did this, she did that...."

......................

Denial is NOT a river in Egypt

Jenn

My Kalkitosis doses have been sittin' around too long!!! Time for a squirt.

I'm not really into the carding thing.
But may I make one exception?

WHAT AGE ARE YOU, Kalkbreath?

Come on Advantage.........say something with substance........take a stance and explain why you feel the way you do ? I agree my breath smells like colitis and I am not the obsequious person in the industry .......but every one knows this already .........bring something new to this table ! :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Like others have said Kalk, go there, see for yourself. You don't seem to have a true grasp of what is going on there and how it actually works. You ever hear of long range boats? You think ANY bread and butter fish MAKE it even into there fish sauce on board? Nope. Only high end target fish make it on board. This guys are just one of the many major cyaniders in the S. Pacific.

 

[Kalkbreath]

There ISN'T much recent cyanide damage showing in the area where Mike Kirda was visitting BUT you should have seen it when they were targetting this area that they have since left as dead and moved on to a new area in the continual chase for TARGET species which leads them furthor and furthor away (not reducing Kalks ever so precious landing figures, just adding more milage, stress, cost and depletion in they're wake)

please read it again Kalk, pay attention to my use of recent, that implies past tense. The area has regrown some what, most large heads dead, but coverred with recruits (diversity lower though). Just how long do you think a bleached coral head stays bleached before its coverred in algae and other recruits? The area doesn't have any Blue Face Angels (and hasn't for many many years), Blue Tangs, Emperor Angels and the likes for a long time (hence not much cyanide activity from MO cyanider collectors) and the groupers, wrasse and other food fish of substance where fished out even before the target MO's were even depleted (hence the lack of food fishing there). Yes, theres fish there, butterflyfish and the likes. The usual suspects when talking about a reef after cyaniders.

I actually have no knowledge of this area or contacts to ask so .......I cannot contest your notion.{ If you promise this is the history of the area} .......You win this one

 

[Anonymous]

edit:

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not trying to win anything, just trying to get you to understand. But then I guess I'd win some RDO award for that.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Like others have said Kalk, go there, see for yourself. You don't seem to have a true grasp of what is going on there and how it actually works. You ever hear of long range boats? You think ANY bread and butter fish MAKE it even into there fish sauce on board? Nope. Only high end target fish make it on board. This guys are just one of the many major cyaniders in the S. Pacific.

There are not that many blue faces landing in the USA from PI .........Blue tangs are plentiful from ten countries Imperators as well ...........At 15 dollars a blue face or five bucks a blue tang .......There is more money in damsels and clownfish ........what you are painting is a picture of the industry ten years ago.........when the demand was not for reef tank fish .........but big [fish only} fish ........In my store , I cant sell large angels ........Conspics , Blue face , lunula triggers ..There is no longer a market .........How many Blue faces land in Calif a week from PI ? How many green chromis ? The cyanide days are over for this hobby ..............The reef tank has solved both the over collection issues and large showfish demand .........Demand for fish is at a All time low ........And we cannot deplete the invert or coral stocks in any ocean ..........Problem solved !

 

[Anonymous]

Tell that to the LPS's