a picture for kalk...

[Anonymous]

there was a time when i believed and contended that everyone is educable, given enough time, and proper information

i have since learned, thanks to you, kalk, that such is not the case

the only thing worse than an uneducated and ignorant individual is one who remains so by choice :?

i so regret taking the time for one last shot at attempting to reason w/you, kalk-for you truly and absolutely refuse to listen to reason, and insist on propagandizing your own, false, interpretation of reality to further a rather despicable agenda.

now that my original impression of you has been proven to be correct, i'll move on to dialogue with those of sane and reasonable mind.

have fun while you help destroy our planet, our livelihoods, our industry, and our hobby-it's truly sad and infuriating to know that people like you are still taking advantage of such amazing and wonderful things like the reef environment for nothing other than furthering their own selfish personal gain, w/no consideration for the damage they cause others, as long as they can continue to worship the almighty dollar

time for me to move on...

The sad part of it is that Kalk truly represents industry.
Industry continues in denial just like Kalk.
Industy continues to do nothing even though it is apparent that the Philippine government will soon put a stop to the continued destruction of their reef resource.
Industry continues to do nothing even though it is apparent that your own government is bent on instituting regulations as well.
By MO2004 you had better come up with a leader and a plan which includes the immediate implementation of CDT testing or it is over for ya.

:lol:

and what have you done to help the issue, naesco? aside from yelling at others that the end is near,get cracking,whether my way is based in reality or not? :lol:

hello, grasshopper #2 :lol:

you have no clue about the cdt, and anything connected with either it's implementation, or use, and you certainly have no understanding, or feel, for the economics,politics, and global/social issues of which you rant .

i'm now waiting for about 25 questions to be answered by you, btw (just in case you've forgotten) :lol:


the issue that you and kalk share, and frighteningly so, is that you both just post in a one sided dialogue-the only thing you're interested in doing is furthering your 'agenda' by dodging dialogue and propagandizing, while completely ignoring the different,and oft-times far more knowledgeable, opnions/info/p.o.v.'s offered,which are given to you in an attempt to better explain your misunderstandings, of an issue you know less about(and are often just plain ignorant of).-but your goal was never to learn, exchange, or discuss.- the ideas placed here by many in good faith that they would recieve the same respect from you that they give to you, by participating in the exchange,are not respected by you, nor is the respect returned.


(btw-i don't include myself in the more select group of very knowledgeable people on these various issues, but you've plainly just insulted, over time, everyone iv'e seen to start you one-sided dialogues with, from mary, to steve, to jaime, et al)

if you can't even 'argue' civilly, here, you certainly will never be able to lead, nor contribute, to any type of 'reeform'
:lol:

please just post your responses as topics from now on :lol:

 

[hdtran]

Naesco,

I don't believe that Kalk is representative of "the industry," but that's just my opinion.

"The industry" consists of several groups, as several other posters have pointed out, including: (i) collectors, (ii) middlefolks, (iii) exporters, (iv) importers, (v) wholesalers (I'm not sure if (iv) and (v) are the same), (vi) retailers, and (vii) consumers/hobbyists. (i-vi) have different motives; but include earning a living. (vii)'s motives are to spend money (well, not too much :wink: ). I suppose some folks would wish to add category (viii), which is parasitical NGO's 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Saying Kalk in representitive of the industry goes back to the "one bad apple, spoils the bunch". Saying his attitude represents the industry as a whole is wrong. Yah, a big part of it may think like that, but why say we all do? Do you know how the first trainings in PI came about? Do you know who funded them? Did you know they were self funded by an "indusrtry person"? Saying we're all bad negates what little good has been done, and calls the good, bad. Neasco, some think all land developers are all bad and that they're robbing the locals of a renewable resource. Funny thing is, in all your rantings, you've failled to even convert the store your son works at, to net-caught only.

 

[Anonymous]

there was a time when i believed and contended that everyone is educable, given enough time, and proper information

i have since learned, thanks to you, kalk, that such is not the case

the only thing worse than an uneducated and ignorant individual is one who remains so by choice :?

i so regret taking the time for one last shot at attempting to reason w/you, kalk-for you truly and absolutely refuse to listen to reason, and insist on propagandizing your own, false, interpretation of reality to further a rather despicable agenda.

now that my original impression of you has been proven to be correct, i'll move on to dialogue with those of sane and reasonable mind.

have fun while you help destroy our planet, our livelihoods, our industry, and our hobby-it's truly sad and infuriating to know that people like you are still taking advantage of such amazing and wonderful things like the reef environment for nothing other than furthering their own selfish personal gain, w/no consideration for the damage they cause others, as long as they can continue to worship the almighty dollar

time for me to move on...

The sad part of it is that Kalk truly represents industry.
Industry continues in denial just like Kalk.
Industy continues to do nothing even though it is apparent that the Philippine government will soon put a stop to the continued destruction of their reef resource.
Industry continues to do nothing even though it is apparent that your own government is bent on instituting regulations as well.
By MO2004 you had better come up with a leader and a plan which includes the immediate implementation of CDT testing or it is over for ya.

Thats by monday, as the start of MO '04 is upon us.

 

[naesco]

Saying Kalk in representitive of the industry goes back to the "one bad apple, spoils the bunch". Saying his attitude represents the industry as a whole is wrong. Yah, a big part of it may think like that, but why say we all do? Do you know how the first trainings in PI came about? Do you know who funded them? Did you know they were self funded by an "indusrtry person"? Saying we're all bad negates what little good has been done, and calls the good, bad. Neasco, some think all land developers are all bad and that they're robbing the locals of a renewable resource. Funny thing is, in all your rantings, you've failled to even convert the store your son works at, to net-caught only.

One more time Gresham, by in large those who post from industry in this forum represent reeform. They may be blinded by dated political dogma (government should not interfere in industry), or become disenchanted with the lack of progress and constant internal bickering amongst reeformists, but their heart is certainly in the right place.
But lets face it there are thousands of industry people and less than a dozen reeformists.
The others are quit happy to buy and sell cyanide caught fish knowing that when they do so, not only are they selling fish destined to die in their customers tanks but destroy the reefs on the Philippines and all the critters that dwell in it.

But the end to the cyanide era is near and we all need to rejoice.

Hopefully MO2004 comes out with a plan to deal with implementation of a CDT which as I see it is the only way that the industry can be saved.
If industry adopts mandatory CDT testing it will show both the US and Philippine governments that industry is committed to reeform.
Anything less than that will the industry and rightfully so.
You simply cannot justify the destruction of the reefs to preserve the industry. That destruction continues as we post.

 

[Anonymous]

Saying Kalk in representitive of the industry goes back to the "one bad apple, spoils the bunch". Saying his attitude represents the industry as a whole is wrong. Yah, a big part of it may think like that, but why say we all do? Do you know how the first trainings in PI came about? Do you know who funded them? Did you know they were self funded by an "indusrtry person"? Saying we're all bad negates what little good has been done, and calls the good, bad. Neasco, some think all land developers are all bad and that they're robbing the locals of a renewable resource. Funny thing is, in all your rantings, you've failled to even convert the store your son works at, to net-caught only.

One more time Gresham, by in large those who post from industry in this forum represent reeform. They may be blinded by dated political dogma (government should not interfere in industry), or become disenchanted with the lack of progress and constant internal bickering amongst reeformists, but their heart is certainly in the right place.
But lets face it there are thousands of industry people and less than a dozen reeformists.

there you go talking just like kalk again-YOU may know of only a dozen, and they may be the only ones participating on this board, but rest assured there are far more-i know of at least 2 aquarium CLUBS that have expressed serious interest if 'reeform', and those were only newly made aware of certain efforts on corl's behalf a week or so ago.

are you so limited in vision that you only imagine what you see in front of you?

The others are quit happy to buy and sell cyanide caught fish knowing that when they do so, not only are they selling fish destined to die in their customers tanks but destroy the reefs on the Philippines and all the critters that dwell in it.

But the end to the cyanide era is near and we all need to rejoice.


care to back that up, or is this the mac cdt song you sang last year all over again?

Hopefully MO2004 comes out with a plan to deal with implementation of a CDT which as I see it is the only way that the industry can be saved.
If industry adopts mandatory CDT testing it will show both the US and Philippine governments that industry is committed to reeform.
Anything less than that will the industry and rightfully so.
You simply cannot justify the destruction of the reefs to preserve the industry. That destruction continues as we post.

we includes you, doesn't it? or did you intend to write 'as you post...'

what happpened to this? you wrote just in the previous rant...

By MO2004 you had better come up with a leader and a plan which includes the immediate implementation of CDT testing or it is over for ya.

was this order/mandate in error? :lol:

again, you show a complete lack of understanding, or complete disregard for the realities surrounding your positions/statements, and are showing me, if not everyone, how hypocritical (and unaware) a judge you are

please take the time to read and learn first, so you can contribute a meaningful, well formed opinion on the subject matter at hand-or at least, acknowledge when you need to.


once again i ask you naesco-what have you done to help the problem?

 

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to point out that even a net caught fish is destined to die in a hobbyist tank.

 

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to point out that even a net caught fish is destined to die in a hobbyist tank.

but i'm sure you'll agree that doesn't preclude our responsibility to maximize the creature's quality of life to the maximum we can, in our 'limited' artificial environs we create :wink:

(which should begin at the moment of capture) :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

yes.

 

[mkirda]

fish have been included in the tests Im sure ......but never in the results. :wink:

You are sure? Based on what, exactly?

Kalk, you understand nothing of basic science or Scientific method.
You really should have paid attention back in 7th grade science class.

There are studies of cyanide effects on fish and there are studies of cyanide effects on corals. The way science works, scientists will do their utmost to remove as many variables as possible, varying only one so that they can isolate its effects. Putting fish and coral in the same tank to do experiments ADDS variables, therefore it would never, ever, ever, ever be done.

Based on the results of separate studies, you can find out the effects of cyanide on corals AND fish. Your criticism of Cervino's paper as not having fish in the tanks is a red herring, nothing more, nothing less.

Note before I said read and understand. Either you have not understood what you have read, or you are purposing blowing smoke up the entire forum's rear.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

The question is how many squirts does it take to collect 500,000 fish? and can that many squirts cause such wide spread damage? Once again ......you have nothing to back up you claims......Not math...... not photography......... The same people that think Australia sells 12 million in fish and that breath bags will save fish during transport .........have no business getting involved in the trade. The same people whom feel its wrong to collect coral eating butterflies, but have no issue with collecting adult breeder size fish .......Are too overcome with emotion to think logically through the logistics of what they preach. Never mind that there are not enough fish exported per year to require millions of squirts necessary to blitz the reefs .........or that 70 percent of the fish exported per year are not the types of fish collected with cyanide .{damsels clownfish lionfish chromis mandarins} It must be our collectors!

 

[Anonymous]

The question is how many squirts does it take to collect 500,000 fish? and can that many squirts cause such wide spread damage? Once again ......you have nothing to back up you claims......Not math...... not photography......... The same people that think Australia sells 12 million in fish and that breath bags will save fish during transport .........have no business getting involved in the trade. The same people whom feel its wrong to collect coral eating butterflies, but have no issue with collecting adult breeder size fish .......Are too overcome with emotion to think logically through the logistics of what they preach. Never mind that there are not enough fish exported per year to require millions of squirts necessary to blitz the reefs .........or that 70 percent of the fish exported per year are not the types of fish collected with cyanide .{damsels clownfish lionfish chromis mandarins} It must be our collectors!

you have never provided a single proof or photo, i've seen tens of proofs, and at least 2-3 photos proving your wrong

(p.s.-stateing a lie as a fact does not = a proof)

(neither does ignoring math and scientific, and observational evidence)

until you PROVE your assertions, as the 'other side' HAS done, in spite of your self elective blindness, you really are just blowing smoke.

i doubt anyone can really take you seriously at all
:lol:

i'm still waiting for your proofs, btw

 

[mkirda]

The question is how many squirts does it take to collect 500,000 fish? and can that many squirts cause such wide spread damage? Once again ......you have nothing to back up you claims......Not math...... not photography......... The same people that think Australia sells 12 million in fish and that breath bags will save fish during transport .........have no business getting involved in the trade. The same people whom feel its wrong to collect coral eating butterflies, but have no issue with collecting adult breeder size fish .......Are too overcome with emotion to think logically through the logistics of what they preach. Never mind that there are not enough fish exported per year to require millions of squirts necessary to blitz the reefs .........or that 70 percent of the fish exported per year are not the types of fish collected with cyanide .{damsels clownfish lionfish chromis mandarins} It must be our collectors!

Kalk,

You have never done squat to disprove the 12 million fish out of Australia report- I have never commented on it other than to tell you to contact the author. Did you? And his comments were?
I've never commented on whether I thought the report was true or not because frankly, it is just another red herring and I didn't really care. It isn't relevant to the discussion.

So why is it that you are having such a hard time coming up with a figure?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Its funny that "frankly" takes on a whole new meaning in this forum!

 

[Kalkbreath]

The photos you base your silly notion on ........tell no story ......? Why would cyanide fishermen "nuke" are section of reef with no coral structure like in your photos? There is no coral for the fish to be hiding? There are no huge dead table acros ! Its like squirting a bowling ball! No matter how many times you squirt the ball is not going to give up any fish? As for why scientists are to afraid to conduct real world test, like collecting tiny hobby fish with cyanide and seeing how the coral responds together like on the reef? Maybe its the same reason that breathable fish bag testers never though about the fact that the fish are going to ride in the cargo hull of an airplane!! there is no shortage of one track minded or deceptive scientists.

 

[Anonymous]

The photos you base your silly notion on ........tell no story ......? Why would cyanide fishermen "nuke" are section of reef with no coral structure like in your photos? There is no coral for the fish to be hiding? There are no huge dead table acros ! Its like squirting a bowling ball! No matter how many times you squirt the ball is not going to give up any fish? As for why scientists are to afraid to conduct real world test, like collecting tiny hobby fish with cyanide and seeing how the coral responds together like on the reef? Maybe its the same reason that breathable fish bag testers never though about the fact that the fish are going to ride in the cargo hull of an airplane!! there is no shortage of one track minded or deceptive scientists.

'Eppur si muove !!'

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,

You have never done squat to disprove the 12 million fish out of Australia report- I have never commented on it other than to tell you to contact the author. Did you? And his comments were?
I've never commented on whether I thought the report was true or not because frankly, it is just another red herring and I didn't really care. It isn't relevant to the discussion.

So why is it that you are having such a hard time coming up with a figure?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Even the woods report states only 175,000 fish fron Aussey land......you do the math. I did the number on how many squirts you get out of all hobby cyanide bottles.........40,000. Only fish that are actually collected with cyanide count. I could put a squairt bottl e in the hands of a robot and have the machine squart continuesly 24/7 .....but what would that prove? Larry bird could have scored a lot more 3 point shots if the basket ball games were 24 hours a day! We only collect so many fish a year from PI ......about 120 fish per square kilometer.

 

[Anonymous]

<sm starts handing out aspirins>

A one-sided dialogue is called a monologue.

This is your head, this is your head hitting that wall (how do ya like my siggie now?? )

 

[mkirda]

Even the woods report states only 175,000 fish fron Aussey land......you do the math. I did the number on how many squirts you get out of all hobby cyanide bottles.........40,000.

Kalk,

Aussie fish = red herring. Stop talking about irrelevant BS, please.

So you think that there are 40,000 squirts out of a single squirt bottle filled with cyanide? That much?

Based on that number, the amount of coral killed is going to be really, really high, Kalk. You should lower your estimate to something more reasonable...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Even the woods report states only 175,000 fish fron Aussey land......you do the math. I did the number on how many squirts you get out of all hobby cyanide bottles.........40,000.

Kalk,

Aussie fish = red herring. Stop talking about irrelevant BS, please.

So you think that there are 40,000 squirts out of a single squirt bottle filled with cyanide? That much?

Based on that number, the amount of coral killed is going to be really, really high, Kalk. You should lower your estimate to something more reasonable...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

You really think there is only one guy and one cyanide bottle in PI ? I think the 40,000 squirts a year in the region would be from several collectors......... :wink: