a picture for kalk...

[Anonymous]

kalk

since your always going on about how there are never any pics around of cyanide damaged reefs and fish, i'd like to call your attention to the following:

'the conscientious marine aquarist' by robert m. fenner, hard cover

pg.164, 167

if i had a scanner, i'd post the pics, but i'm sure you carry the book anyway

 

[hdtran]

Vitz,

I already pointed that out in an earlier thread. Kalk wrote something back about his hairy back, but I quickly performed a self-lobotomy so as not to see the hairy back...

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think Bob's got a hairy back.. I'll have to double check.

 

[Kalkbreath]

kalk

since your always going on about how there are never any pics around of cyanide damaged reefs and fish, i'd like to call your attention to the following:

'the conscientious marine aquarist' by robert m. fenner, hard cover

pg.164, 167

if i had a scanner, i'd post the pics, but i'm sure you carry the book anyway

I have not seen the photo ......Why does the author feel it was pet fish collectors which killed the reef? It has never been demonstrated that it is even possible to kill coral without killing the targeted fish! Thats why Peter has never been able to duplicate this in a lab tank.{kill the coral without killing the fish in the tank as well} Not too long ago there were many people with this view point. It is only since it has been so politically incorrect to speak the truth that every one {except myself } has stopped pushing the issue. Without naming names many of the most respected names in the business five years ago ,also subscribed to the idea that you cant collect marketable fish if your using high enough levels of cyanide to kill coral. Its not our guys bleaching the reefs. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

please get a copy of the book and look at the pics before you spew forth any further nonsense w/your denial of evidence made presentable to you :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Kalk, you truly have no idea, do you? I mean, not only of who Bob is, but how long he's lived abroad, what he did growing up, how long he's been tootin' his horn about this issue, none of it, right?

More importantly, why don't you have this book for sale in your shop?! 8O

 

[Anonymous]

Photo removed due to threats of law suit from Peter Rubec and the IMA. It was a photo of a dead coral head, but Dr Peter Rubec and the IMA don't want you to see it for some reason. Go figure, being that they claim to be here to help the reefs.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I still find it odd that you all dont understand that hobby collectors sell LIVE fish? There is no way that hobby collectors kill large sections of reef. Only small areas {a few square inches at best} the small areas are from the closest point to the tip of the squirt bottle. ,Because at that point the cyanide is more concentrated. Explain to me the scenario in which a large section of reef would be killed off by hobby collectors collecting fish for our trade.

 

[Anonymous]

I still find it odd that you all dont understand that hobby collectors sell LIVE fish? There is no way that hobby collectors kill large sections of reef. Only small areas {a few square inches at best} the small areas are from the closest point to the tip of the squirt bottle. ,Because at that point the cyanide is more concentrated. Explain to me the scenario in which a large section of reef would be killed off by hobby collectors collecting fish for our trade.

you've made it clear that you aren't interested in explanations of any kind, nor in the acceptance of said explanations

(eel rubbings come to mind :lol: )

 

[clarionreef]

The death head coral...
The photo a few posts back was taken in Bolinao, Pangasinan, Philippines on a dive with Dr. Don McAllister and Dr. Peter Rubec and I.
It was typical of reefbase areas that had been killed off in the super-cyanide zone of Bolinao, circa 1985.
Cyanide sprayed repeatedly in coral head after coral head day after day by dozens of divers eventually killed off the coral cover nearer to town and branched out futher and futher to this day.
30 some divers were trained there and today their children are trained as well...by their fathers.
Now Bolinao is a mediocre collecting station but prime recruiting area for getting experienced divers to go collect in other countries.
Coral killed by cyanide was the challenge? How silly. The real challenge was to find coral NOT killed by it in Bolinao.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Your still avoiding the task at hand.....These people think its possible to blanket white a reef when collecting tiny reef fish. Its pure bull. Your using the handy work of food fishermen to further your cause. Its impossible to mix a concentration of cyanide strong enough to create a large plume and intense enough to kill every thing in its path .....yet collect tiny butterflies and tangs ALIVE. It would take a squirt bottle the size of the Titanic. the concentration begins to decrease as it mixes with the surounding seawater. Its never been demonstrated in a controlled study that its possible to kill the coral and not the fish. A few studies have shown its possible to make the coral lose its color. And if repeatedly exposed to cyanide that it will finally die. But thats far from explaining how our hobby can be responsible for any but a few isolated repeated over exposers deaths.

 

[Anonymous]

Your still avoiding the task at hand.....These people think its possible to blanket white a reef when collecting tiny reef fish. Its pure bull. Your using the handy work of food fishermen to further your cause. Its impossible to mix a concentration of cyanide strong enough to create a large plume and intense enough to kill every thing in its path .....yet collect tiny butterflies and tangs ALIVE. It would take a squirt bottle the size of the Titanic. the concentration begins to decrease as it mixes with the surounding seawater. Its never been demonstrated in a controlled study that its possible to kill the coral and not the fish. A few studies have shown its possible to make the coral lose its color. And if repeatedly exposed to cyanide that it will finally die. But thats far from explaining how our hobby can be responsible for any but a few isolated repeated over exposers deaths.

have you learned to read yet?

Cyanide sprayed repeatedly in coral head after coral head day after day by dozens of divers eventually killed off the coral cover nearer to town and branched out futher and futher to this day.

are you calling steve a liar?

are you absolutely incapable of a simple mental task like extrapolation?

what, exactly, is your agenda?


ever hear of the famous old parable of the ant and the grasshopper?

you, sir, are a grasshopper :lol:

These people think its possible to blanket white a reef when collecting tiny reef fish. Its pure bull.

prove it

 

[mkirda]

There is no way that hobby collectors kill large sections of reef. Only small areas {a few square inches at best} the small areas are from the closest point to the tip of the squirt bottle. ,Because at that point the cyanide is more concentrated. Explain to me the scenario in which a large section of reef would be killed off by hobby collectors collecting fish for our trade.

Kalk,

How many squirts do you think are in a bottle?

Based on that number, we can assume that 10 square cm are killed outright for each squirt. (Based on what you have supplied above...)
I can tell you how many fish a net-collector can get in a day.
Let's extrapolate from there.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

A few studies have shown its possible to make the coral lose its color. And if repeatedly exposed to cyanide that it will finally die.

Kalk,

Your assertion is incorrect. It is quite possible to bleach a coral outright and cause its death a couple of days later by using concentrations well under what is known to come out of a cyanide squirt bottle. It takes one application, not several.

If you know of the studies, it would do to read them and understand them before you comment on them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

A few studies have shown its possible to make the coral lose its color. And if repeatedly exposed to cyanide that it will finally die.

Kalk,

Your assertion is incorrect. It is quite possible to bleach a coral outright and cause its death a couple of days later by using concentrations well under what is known to come out of a cyanide squirt bottle. It takes one application, not several.

If you know of the studies, it would do to read them and understand them before you comment on them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I have read them .....they never include fish. It has never been show to be possible to kill the coral and not kill the fish Period! Just because a bunch of local food fish collectors squirted triggers to feed their themselves does not mean hobby collectors are responsible for the cyanide harm. Many times the test has been attempted in test tanks.[I bet Peter has tried it} fish have been included in the tests Im sure ......but never in the results. :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

There is no way that hobby collectors kill large sections of reef. Only small areas {a few square inches at best} the small areas are from the closest point to the tip of the squirt bottle. ,Because at that point the cyanide is more concentrated. Explain to me the scenario in which a large section of reef would be killed off by hobby collectors collecting fish for our trade.

Kalk,

How many squirts do you think are in a bottle?

Based on that number, we can assume that 10 square cm are killed outright for each squirt. (Based on what you have supplied above...)
I can tell you how many fish a net-collector can get in a day.
Let's extrapolate from there.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

There are only so many fish being collected. What percentage do you say is being cyanide collected? 20% ? How many fish are collected at a time? Twenty damsels or a school of 20 Blue tangs?? Thats only about 40,000 squirts.{based on the total fish imported} In an area the size of 25,000 square kilometers.{the size of Fla ,Ga Alabam ,Mississppi ?} You might be able to concentrate all the cyanide fishing on a few reefs ......then you would get your theory of hobby damage from repeated low dose exposure. But how would you explain the wide range of similar cyanide damage over the entire region? The math does not work out in your favor. You do the math, how many square kilometers of damaged reefs are there .........how many fish are being collected each year for the hobby in those areas? Even if all fish from PI are cyanide collected ..{4mil}....Thats about 60 fish per square mile , one squirt per fish ....is only sixty squirts for every 288 foot ball fields .....or one squirt every 4.5 foot ball fields of reef ....... You cant have it both ways ......either all of our collection is taking place on a few reefs and having an effect........Or we are collecting from thousands of square miles of reefs and dont collect enough to have an effect.......Which is it?

 

[Anonymous]

there was a time when i believed and contended that everyone is educable, given enough time, and proper information

i have since learned, thanks to you, kalk, that such is not the case

the only thing worse than an uneducated and ignorant individual is one who remains so by choice :?

i so regret taking the time for one last shot at attempting to reason w/you, kalk-for you truly and absolutely refuse to listen to reason, and insist on propagandizing your own, false, interpretation of reality to further a rather despicable agenda.

now that my original impression of you has been proven to be correct, i'll move on to dialogue with those of sane and reasonable mind.

have fun while you help destroy our planet, our livelihoods, our industry, and our hobby-it's truly sad and infuriating to know that people like you are still taking advantage of such amazing and wonderful things like the reef environment for nothing other than furthering their own selfish personal gain, w/no consideration for the damage they cause others, as long as they can continue to worship the almighty dollar

time for me to move on...

 

[mkirda]

There is no way that hobby collectors kill large sections of reef. Only small areas {a few square inches at best} the small areas are from the closest point to the tip of the squirt bottle. ,Because at that point the cyanide is more concentrated. Explain to me the scenario in which a large section of reef would be killed off by hobby collectors collecting fish for our trade.

Kalk,

How many squirts do you think are in a bottle?

Based on that number, we can assume that 10 square cm are killed outright for each squirt. (Based on what you have supplied above...)
I can tell you how many fish a net-collector can get in a day.
Let's extrapolate from there.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

There are only so many fish being collected. What percentage do you say is being cyanide collected? 20% ? How many fish are collected at a time? Twenty damsels or a school of 20 Blue tangs?? Thats only about 40,000 squirts.{based on the total fish imported} In an area the size of 25,000 square kilometers.{the size of Fla ,Ga Alabam ,Mississppi ?} You might be able to concentrate all the cyanide fishing on a few reefs ......then you would get your theory of hobby damage from repeated low dose exposure. But how would you explain the wide range of similar cyanide damage over the entire region? The math does not work out in your favor. You do the math, how many square kilometers of damaged reefs are there .........how many fish are being collected each year for the hobby in those areas? Even if all fish from PI are cyanide collected ..{4mil}....Thats about 60 fish per square mile , one squirt per fish ....is only sixty squirts for every 288 foot ball fields .....or one squirt every 4.5 foot ball fields of reef ....... You cant have it both ways ......either all of our collection is taking place on a few reefs and having an effect........Or we are collecting from thousands of square miles of reefs and dont collect enough to have an effect.......Which is it?

Jeez, Kalk...

Is it so hard to answer one simple question?
Nothing you have spewed forth here is even remotely relevant.

Let's try again:
How many squirts do you think are in a bottle?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[hdtran]

Mike,

Wrong question to ask. Ask, instead, to have Kalk prove his assertion. In a properly formatted, proofread, well-organized document. Like in a textbook or journal submission.

Or, Kalk can write a critique for

Cervino et al., "Changes in zooxanthellae density, morphology, and mitotic index in hermatypic corals and anemones exposed to cyanide," in Marine Pollution Bulletin 46(2003), p. 573-586.

and tell us on what points he thinks the authors are incorrect, and why.

Hy

 

[naesco]

there was a time when i believed and contended that everyone is educable, given enough time, and proper information

i have since learned, thanks to you, kalk, that such is not the case

the only thing worse than an uneducated and ignorant individual is one who remains so by choice :?

i so regret taking the time for one last shot at attempting to reason w/you, kalk-for you truly and absolutely refuse to listen to reason, and insist on propagandizing your own, false, interpretation of reality to further a rather despicable agenda.

now that my original impression of you has been proven to be correct, i'll move on to dialogue with those of sane and reasonable mind.

have fun while you help destroy our planet, our livelihoods, our industry, and our hobby-it's truly sad and infuriating to know that people like you are still taking advantage of such amazing and wonderful things like the reef environment for nothing other than furthering their own selfish personal gain, w/no consideration for the damage they cause others, as long as they can continue to worship the almighty dollar

time for me to move on...

The sad part of it is that Kalk truly represents industry.
Industry continues in denial just like Kalk.
Industy continues to do nothing even though it is apparent that the Philippine government will soon put a stop to the continued destruction of their reef resource.
Industry continues to do nothing even though it is apparent that your own government is bent on instituting regulations as well.
By MO2004 you had better come up with a leader and a plan which includes the immediate implementation of CDT testing or it is over for ya.