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dizzy

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Dear Ad,
You are being much to hard on poor Jenn. You should realize that where Jenn is living in Atlanta is part of the South. She is defintely right that people in this region don't want too much government in their lives. Most of us view government intervention and regulation as a loss of freedom. In case you haven't noticed we Americans are willing to fight and die to protect our freedoms.

As far as naesco goes and his trying to tell the US government what they should or shouldn't do. I'll just quote Lynyrd Skynyrd: A Southern man don't need him around anyhow! You guys make your laws and we'll make ours.

PS This thread ain't about cyanide anyway.
 
A

Anonymous

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so much for trying to initiate a dialogue about a non mac, non cyanide subject, in non sump fashion :? :x
 

dizzy

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vitz,
I was prolly tying my post while you were posting your previous one. I thought AD was a bit hard on Jenn and wanted to let him/her know that Jenn wasn't really assuming all that much. It wasn't about MAC or cyanide either. It was about a country having the right to make its own laws.
 

Ad van Tage

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seamaiden":7o09wd11 said:
Which is pretty much how I read it.

THIS is pretty much how I read it:

dizzy":7o09wd11 said:
Dear Ad,
You are being much to hard on poor Jenn.
You should realize that where Jenn is living in Atlanta is part of the South.
She is defintely right that people in this region don't want too much government in their lives.
Most of us view government intervention and regulation as a loss of freedom.
In case you haven't noticed we Americans are willing to fight and die to protect our freedoms. (2)

As far as naesco goes and his trying to tell the US government(1) what they should or shouldn't do.
I'll just quote Lynyrd Skynyrd: A Southern man don't need him around anyhow!
You guys make your laws and we'll make ours.

PS This thread ain't about cyanide anyway.

vitz":7o09wd11 said:
so much for trying to initiate a dialogue about a non mac, non cyanide subject, in non sump fashion :? :x

dizzy":7o09wd11 said:
vitz,
I was prolly tying my post while you were posting your previous one. I thought AD was a bit hard on Jenn and wanted to let him/her know that Jenn wasn't really assuming all that much. It wasn't about MAC or cyanide either.
It was about a country having the right to make its own laws .

DUH??? DRY GOODS & REGULATION?

(1) For the record
naesco":7o09wd11 said:
Vitz IMO this hobby needs strict government regulation and this extends into livestock is well.

=== Where do I see him telling the US government???

(2) How can we miss that so far 500 US military personel died in IRAQ; never mind the thousands of wounded...

=== WE are more than a lil aware of THAT... WE also remember(ed) the Canadians who died in Afghanistan, due to "friendly" fire.

But hey VITZ wants to talk about dry goods and kaka...

I personally think that the MAC and cyanide are more relevant to the "Industry and the Hobby", in an international context... than kaka

In my neck of the woods there is a lotta "kaka" in corrals;
but I try not to confuse that with cyanide and corals...

So if once and a while we try to get back to that problem, will that be OK with Vitz?

I have no problem with Vitz wanting to kaka right along.
 

dizzy

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Glenn,
Ad went back and changed the emphasis of my post to reflect his/her own interpretation. I do wish Ad would indicate a preference to being called a him or a her. Perhaps we should just refer to Ad as Cousin It.

Sorry if I'm a bit off topic, but. In understanding this industry we should realize that people in different geographic regions tend to view the issues from different perspectives. The Northeast (especially New York) and California tend to be the most liberal. The rest of the country is generally more conservative. Rest assured that the reining political parties are well aware of these demographics. Glenn you should realize that by operating a lfs you have the opportunity to meet many people from the local community, and listen to their opinions on many things. Jenn has stated previously that she discusses issues like the MAC with her customers. I do that too here in our store. Quit a few of the advanced marine hobbyists have heard at least a little about MAC by now. The feedback I am getting here in Kentucky is very similar to what Jenn reported in Atlanta. In general the conservative South wants less government in their lives and not more. If she made any risky assumptions it was that the South reflects the views of the entire nation. We southerners tend to believe in states rights, and the right of self determination. It's reflected in our culture, our history, and our music. Understand that, and you'll begin to understand us.
 
A

Anonymous

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Heh.. dizzy, notice my location. It is known 'round these here parts as "The Orange Curtain".
lol.gif
Remember, California has both the three strikes law and D/P.

In any event, I only have the perspective of an American, whereas you Canucks located in the U.S. have an added benefit of seeing things from two perspectives. I simply wanted to emphasize dizzy's point (well, what I interpreted anyway) that Jenn isn't a "bad guy", or taking the piss, I thought hers was a simple case of observation (an astute and well-argued case at that).

However, I think these observations are indeed ultimately relevant when folks are talking about ADDING to the government and its interference in our lives. I do not disagree regarding at least warning labels. According to Proposition 65 (California, 1986), any shop that sells or utilizes anything listed that could fall under its auspices is VIOLATING LAW ALREADY IN PLACE. There is even a special consideration regarding fish for consumption. I go to my local TJMaxx and the lead crystal is displayed with warning signs regarding consumption of products housed in said lead crystal.

So, I believe that vitz does have a valid point here, yet I do not agree that it is one that necessarily requires more regulation, simply better enforcement.
 
A

Anonymous

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here's a good example of why veterinary products/drugs definitely should be regulated:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/29/science/29VULT.html


January 29, 2004
A Drug Used for Cattle Is Said to Be Killing Vultures
By JAMES GORMAN

A mysterious and precipitous plunge in the number of vultures in South Asia, which has pushed three species to the brink of extinction, is probably a result of inadvertent poisoning by a drug used widely in livestock to relieve fever and lameness, scientists reported yesterday.

Studies in Pakistan showed that the drug, diclofenac, an anti-inflammatory commonly prescribed for arthritis and pain in people, caused acute kidney failure in vultures when they ate the carcasses of animals that had recently been treated with it. The findings, which followed a two-year investigation by an international team of 13 scientists, were published online by the journal Nature.

Dr. J. Lindsay Oaks, an assistant professor of veterinary medicine at Washington State University who was the primary author of the report, said the devastation of vulture populations was the first clear case of major ecological damage caused by a pharmaceutical product.
There has been growing concern among scientists and environmentalists about the "vast amount of drugs that end up in the environment one way or another," he said, but no effect of this magnitude.

A study in 2002 by the United States Geological Survey found traces of many different pharmaceuticals and "personal care products" — including steroids, insect repellents and many others — in the American water supply. The effect of these traces is unknown, but the concern is about the unexpected. One laboratory study suggested, for example, that antidepressants like Prozac could trigger spawning in some shellfish.
The vulture finding in South Asia comes as a surprise: while environmental toxins had been suspected in the deaths, a pharmaceutical drug had not. Scientists in India and England suggested that disease was the cause of vulture deaths in India, but they found no infectious agent. The scientists who did the research in Pakistan said the situation in India was likely to be the same as that in Pakistan. But they said they did not have conclusive evidence.

Dr. Oaks said the investigation, which began in 2000, was prompted by reports of a 95 percent drop in the number of Asian white-backed vultures (Gyps bengalensis), Indian vultures (Gyps indicus) and slender-billed vultures (Gyps tenuirostris). All three are listed as critically endangered by the World Conservation Union, the international environmental agency based in Switzerland.

Thomas E. Lovejoy, president of the H. John Heinz III Center for Science, Economics and the Environment, who has long been a leader in environmental policy, said he thought the paper made a "watertight" case for diclofenac as the culprit in the vulture decline.

"I think what it actually says is that we really need to look systematically at the use of pharmaceuticals for veterinary purposes," Dr. Lovejoy said. He added, "It does raise a question of whether we should be looking more closely at the trace chemicals from human use."

In the United States diclofenac, which is in the same class of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs as ibuprofen, is not used in veterinary medicine, although it is often prescribed for people. In Asia the drug is widely given to cattle because it is cheap and because losing livestock to lameness or fever can be devastating to small farmers with only a few animals.

The rapid decline in vulture populations was first reported in the late 1990's by Dr. Vibhu Prakash of the Bombay Natural History Society. Vulture populations had been shrinking gradually from loss of habitat and disease throughout Asia, but what happened in India and Pakistan was different. The decline was quick and severe and posed a problem in a part of the world that relied heavily on the ubiquitous vultures for the efficient disposal of dead livestock.

The decline also threatened the traditions of the Parsis, a sect of Zoroastrians who have traditionally exposed their dead to the elements rather than burying or cremating them. In Bombay they had to stop putting their dead on the stone Towers of Silence because the birds that once quickly consumed them were vanishing.

The plight of the vultures attracted worldwide attention, prompting the Peregrine Society, a bird conservation group based in Boise, Idaho, to begin an investigation with the Ornithological Society of Pakistan.

Dr. Oaks, who is a diagnostician, said the investigation of the cause of vulture deaths followed a painstaking course. Examination of dead vultures provided the first clues. Eighty-five percent showed evidence of acute kidney failure. The scientists then tested the vulture tissue for traces of obvious causes of kidney failure: heavy metals, pesticides and other chemicals. They found none of the substances they were looking for.

The next step was to survey veterinarians and the sellers of veterinary drugs to find which medications were regularly used in livestock, since domestic animals formed a major portion of the vultures' diet.

Because an overdose of diclofenac can cause kidney damage in humans, the drug seemed to be a likely cause of death in the vultures. Further tests established that there were residues of diclofenac in dead vultures. The researchers then conducted experiments that showed that the amount of diclofenac a vulture might ingest from a carcass could kill it within days.

Unlike DDT, which devastated populations of birds of prey, diclofenac does not accumulate in the tissues of livestock or birds. But for the vultures, it is poison.

The drug, the researchers conclude, "may also be responsible for vulture declines in the rest of the Indian subcontinent wherever diclofenac is used for the treatment of livestock." The Peregrine Fund, the researchers and other organizations said theyintend to push for a ban on the drug in veterinary use in India, Nepal and Pakistan.



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JennM

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Been a few days since I've visited this thread.

Whew....

I appreciate those who "have my back" as it were...

Ad Van Tage, whomever you may be...

How many years have you lived in the United States, to so easily dismiss my emperical observations?

I lived in Canada for 33 years, and am a PROUD Canadian (didn't you see me waving my Canadian Flag at the Thrashers/Leafs game last night?) I've lived in the United States for 4 years.

My observations come from "people watching" both there and here. Of course not everybody fits the same profile I've set out, but the very way that each respective country conducts its business, supports the ideas I put forth. Don't believe me? Two words: HEALTH CARE. 'nuff said.

Back to the subject at hand -- I still believe that if dry goods do no harm if used properly, the market should be consumer-driven, without government intervention.

JMHO from both sides now.

Jenn
 
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Anonymous

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Before I begin, Vitz, I think there should be mandatory ingredients labelling for ALL products.
Sorry about this Vitz, I have to reply.

you would have the government mandating a properly funded CDT test and stateside testing

Um, ok Wayne, so how do you go about inventing this statesisde test (as the current one doesn't have much of a legal footing in the USA since it tests for a by-product of cyanide that is also naturally occurring)? How would you address the exporter holding the fish longer so they can "piss away" the results, then send them "stateside"? BTW, US Fish and Wildlife will never implement this, believe me, I deal with them 100% more then you :wink: . As for the funding of it, Canada going to kick in for it? You said stateside, which in my book means the USA. Why do we(USA) have to pay to have your(Canada) fish tested since almost zero tropical MO exports land in Canada?

=== WE are more than a lil aware of THAT... WE also remember(ed) the Canadians who died in Afghanistan, due to "friendly" fire.
How sure are you that it was friendly :D ? I never point my gun at a friend, and I certainly never fire at a friend.
 
A

Anonymous

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GreshamH":12mtxlew said:
Before I begin, Vitz, I think there should be mandatory ingredients labelling for ALL products.
Sorry about this Vitz, I have to reply.

you would have the government mandating a properly funded CDT test and stateside testing

Um, ok Wayne, so how do you go about inventing this statesisde test (as the current one doesn't have much of a legal footing in the USA since it tests for a by-product of cyanide that is also naturally occurring)? How would you address the exporter holding the fish longer so they can "piss away" the results, then send them "stateside"? BTW, US Fish and Wildlife will never implement this, believe me, I deal with them 100% more then you :wink: . As for the funding of it, Canada going to kick in for it? You said stateside, which in my book means the USA. Why do we(USA) have to pay to have your(Canada) fish tested since almost zero tropical MO exports land in Canada?

=== WE are more than a lil aware of THAT... WE also remember(ed) the Canadians who died in Afghanistan, due to "friendly" fire.
How sure are you that it was friendly :D ? I never point my gun at a friend, and I certainly never fire at a friend.


hehe


consider this a formal invitation to the sump :wink: :)
 

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