Australia Nets Slippery Passenger

[mkirda]

What possible reason would there be for not allowing permits on rare or unsual catfish or plecos. I think smuggling is wrong, but having stupid regulations that aren't based on any form of common sense can lead people to break laws. I used to live in a dry county that didn't allow acohol sales. All this did was create a thriving bootleg business that was totally unregulated. It is much easier for minors to buy acohol in such a system and sales go on 24/7. Not only that but the county is cheating itself out of the tax revenue such sales generate. I guess living is easy when the government makes all your choices for you. Now I understand why you drink so much over there.

Mitch,

You are making me Dizzy here. :lol:
You seem to be railing against gov't regulation, then give an example where you argue *for* regulation, then seem to conclude that less regulation is better... Am I the only going "Huh?!?!"

If the fish are illegal, the case goes from being a hobbyist trying to avoid taxes to being a full-fledged smuggler. Regardless of how we view their laws or regulations. My opinion anyway.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

It's pretty simple Mike. I'm in favor of laws that make sense and will not be broken by otherwise good citizens. Is that so hard to understand?
Mitch
PS Were talking about fish that are legally imported into the United States without causing problems. I'm just trying to understand the logic in not allowing permits. I guess the next logical step would be not to allow anything into the country that came from some place else.

 

[Kalkbreath]

What possible reason would there be for not allowing permits on rare or unsual catfish or plecos. I think smuggling is wrong, but having stupid regulations that aren't based on any form of common sense can lead people to break laws. I used to live in a dry county that didn't allow acohol sales. All this did was create a thriving bootleg business that was totally unregulated. It is much easier for minors to buy acohol in such a system and sales go on 24/7. Not only that but the county is cheating itself out of the tax revenue such sales generate. I guess living is easy when the government makes all your choices for you. Now I understand why you drink so much over there.

Mitch,

You are making me Dizzy here. :lol:
You seem to be railing against gov't regulation, then give an example where you argue *for* regulation, then seem to conclude that less regulation is better... Am I the only going "Huh?!?!"

If the fish are illegal, the case goes from being a hobbyist trying to avoid taxes to being a full-fledged smuggler. Regardless of how we view their laws or regulations. My opinion anyway.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I agree with mike, the threshhold was crossed. {ouch that hurt}

 

[dizzy]

You guys sound like the people who vote in favor of keeping the county dry because they don't want people drinking. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

wow, dizzy is pro pot legalization!

 

[dizzy]

Only if it's for legitimate medicinal purposes.

 

[mkirda]

It's pretty simple Mike. I'm in favor of laws that make sense and will not be broken by otherwise good citizens. Is that so hard to understand?
Mitch
PS Were talking about fish that are legally imported into the United States without causing problems. I'm just trying to understand the logic in not allowing permits. I guess the next logical step would be not to allow anything into the country that came from some place else.

No, not so hard to understand, but you probably need to see things from the other POV too. Australia and New Zealand have some pretty tight import restrictions, and my feeling the reason why can be boiled down to some enlightened experiments that didn't work out so well. An example from New Zealand - I don't recall why rabbits were imported, but it was for a reason and they, well, multiplied in ways rabbits are wont to. As farming was already a major industry, and rabbits readily ate the produce, they introduced the rabbit's main predators, weasels and stoats. The trouble was that the stoats in particular developed a taste for many of New Zealand's endemic birds instead of rabbits. They have been fighting these introductions ever since in an attempt to return some balance back to the countryside. There is a Royal Albatross colony on the Otago Pennisula on the South Island that loses hatchlings regularly to stoats.

We might think that they have over-compensated somewhat, but there are a lot of people that would disagree over there.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

You guys sound like the people who vote in favor of keeping the county dry because they don't want people drinking. :lol:

For me, I don't care one way or another. However, if you are going to make it dry, you've got to enforce the law. I would agree that it is plain dumb to make it dry, but tacitly allow unregulated sales, even to teens. To make it easier for them to break the law is against the heart of what the intention of the law is.

I'm not sure how to bring this back full circle to the smuggling issue though...




Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Just had an update as regards the smuggling of fish into melbourne, Apparently these fish are worth in excess of $1000 each here in Australia on the black market as they are not a permitted import. And yes the woman in concern is definetly to be charged
Sorry can't reveal the source but can assure it's authenticity

Mark,
Look mate you seem to have connections with the proper authorites. Please see if you can find out exactly what species we're talking about here. It would also be useful to get an explanation of why these fish pose such a threat. If you get that info we can make a better determination if your law makes sense or not. Sounds like it created a black market for something could possibly be brought in legally without serious harm to the environment. It may be different over there, but our government frequently gets stuff wrong here. Don't be afraid to call them to task if the need arises.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

You guys sound like the people who vote in favor of keeping the county dry because they don't want people drinking. :lol:

For me, I don't care one way or another. However, if you are going to make it dry, you've got to enforce the law. I would agree that it is plain dumb to make it dry, but tacitly allow unregulated sales, even to teens. To make it easier for them to break the law is against the heart of what the intention of the law is.

I'm not sure how to bring this back full circle to the smuggling issue though...




Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike I think I can answer that one.

In KY there are only 4-5 wet county's. I happen to live in one of the dry ones, but the town/city is wet. Every time I go to town to buy beer, I have to "smuggle" it home. Does that mean I am breaking the law? I don't know, but I can tell you the cop that live down the street is doing the same thing.

Mitch, I'll be glad to "smuggle" some alcholic bervages for ya the next time I come visit. 8)

 

[dizzy]

No thanks Sally, I'm on the wagon.

 

[clarionreef]

Sally,
You little contrabandista you.
According to the principle of being perfect before imperfect law, you would be hung by this crowd.
Steve
PS...
UH..UH..UH....One beer or a truckload of commercial whiskey, we have heard arguments that pretend to equalize the crime...and therefore show no mercy.
Hey, this ain't trivial. There have been plenty of cutural dispositions and time windows where your deed is regarded very serious.
Witch, harlot, bootlegger, defamer of all that is holy etc. etc.
Letting you off the hook because we like you suggests that if we knew the plecostomus smuggler we might like her to!
I for one find a lady with the nerve to carry live fish under her dress kinda cool.

 

[aquatic ian]

rightly or wrongly the laws have been set up to protect the natural waterways and agriculture and aquaculture industries . lists of permited specimens are available as well as limited permitted sources.

Interestingly enough fish are really the only animal freely traded , reptiles /birds and small mammal import other than by zoos just doesnt happen (exept by enterprenerial types such as the lady in question )

for instance were i live it is illegal to own /import /buy /sell koi , there are many reasons , but its predominantly to protect against there invasive nature , although most local waterways are full of european carp any way

It is obviously problematic trying to protect such a wide range of diverse enviroments , but an attitude of its already here or you cant provent that from happening is certainly not the attitude of the bodies that make the rules
often if an organism is identified as having potential enviromental impact or pest potential it will be removed from the permited import list , this could include its establishment within a water way locally or overseas ( im pretty sure feral plecos are established around florida and such now arnt they ?)

smugglers seem to try and slip odd specimens through with legitimate imports for example a couple of small giant gourami in with 500 like sized kissing gourami
or marine shrimp wrappen in newspaper
marked as " ice or heat pac " but the consequences are severe
with one marine importer only recently having there operations suspended

even australians with a poor understanding of the enviroment seem apreciate and embrace the restrictions

 

[aquatic ian]

http://www.affa.gov.au/content/output.c ... F4BFEB90E9

here u go some posters for your shops
cheers

 

[dizzy]

Ian,
Thanks for the reply. The posters are really cool. Is the sale of plecostomus allowed at all? If so is the import of plecostomus of any species allowed? I guess my mistake, based on Steve R. earlier post, was to assume that they are sold in the shops. I would suspect that feral plecos do live in Florida given the fact that the fish farmers have accidentally released many, many species via the canals and flooding.

As far as species being intentionally released I offer up this observation. It's the ones that get big and ugly that tend to be the greatest risk for hobbyist release. They often outgrow their tank and stores may not be willing to take them back in, so guess what could happen. The little cute, expensive ones don't present the same problem. Has anyone heard of someone releasing a group of gold nugget or zebra plecos because they couldn't find a new home for them?

No koi. Now that's uncivilized. I'll bet your Asian citizens don't like that regulation. Next thing you know they want you to give up your guns. :wink:
Mitch

 

[aquatic ian]

we can indeed buy and sell some species of plecos they need to be on the list to be imported legally though

another interesting situation we have locally is the fact that a fish might be illegal to import but not to own , as oposed to the koi example i gave earlier which is illegal the whole way the plecos for example will be able to be traded legally once there here , such fish are usually quite expensive and no doubt have been smuggled in to the country

as for the big ugly ones being the problem it really depends were in the country you live for instance the most noxious of the tropical africans is unlikly to present an establishment problem were i live because its so cold

after a few nasty incidents , most of us handed our guns back too ,we now holding a much restricted range of weapons

 

[dizzy]

after a few nasty incidents , most of us handed our guns back too ,we now holding a much restricted range of weapons

We can't give up our guns the Candians are digging tunnels under the border to smuggle drugs and God knows what else into the country. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/21/border.tunnel/

 

[clarionreef]

Releasing a legally imported pleco or an illegally imported one will result in the same thing ...if released into the wild.
Here in California, we have the accursed red ear slider pond turtle for sale by the thousands.
We also have endemic turtles ie. the Western Pond turtle who suffer from super competition by the non endemic red ear.
The point however is not the import of the red ear to California...but the illegal release of it into local waters.
On any given day an Aussie aquarist can go to a warm water river in Queensland and toss anything he wants to into it. Such an irresponsible act is impossible to stop. There is no "river-guard pleco -police" at the waters edge. Nor could there be.
Nailing a silly under the petticoat fish smuggler hardly addresses the issue of invasive species getting into the eco-system . It seems more like an affront to import protocol as the species are already in Oz. The question is how to keep em out of the rivers....something hardly addressed in the " quarantine" campaign.
Perhaps thats another ad campaign for the crocodile hunter.
Steve

 

[aquatic ian]

the import of red eared sliders have been fully banned here since the 50s a prohibited import plus a prescribed noxious species yet smugglers with thier peticoatsand bulging underpants have caused immense cost in having to drain local lakes and streams in an attempt to halt there recent establishment (possibly futile now )
you are quite right in that its difficult to controll the situation ,regarding sliders , you guys find yourself in,and i dont understand your situation , but having controlled there import ,and prevented there sale would have offered better protection than any thing you have proposed so far

our wildlife protection laws also make it illegal to release the fish or reptile , into the wild , with heavy penalties , but that is certainly not the job of aqis who handle issues at the border or source
to imply that the release of fish into natural waterways is with out penalty is misleading , states like queensland also limit a wider range of fish than say here to minimise the risk (im not sure which fish arnt available up there but think koi and a lot of cichlids are restricted )

the list of acceptable species is out there and its up to aquariests to work within the list , if we were talking ,inverts ,birds ,reptiles ,or small mammals we would be faced with a blanket ban , so id rather think we were lucky than limited

 

[clarionreef]

He writes,
"but having controlled there import ,and prevented there sale would have offered better protection than any thing you have proposed so far..."
No sir....
In a big place of freely trading states it would be rather difficult to stop cross the state trade....[red ears are born in the USA]...
Sure theres a penalty for introducing invasives but talk about a hundred to one shot of catching the guy!

My part in this discussion at least was to observe the tokenism of the great energy engendered by the interception of the token amount of already existing imports by the silly petticoat smuggler.
Do you mean to say that catching anyone at all is such a rare event that she'll have to do?
Thats like a launching a war on drugs and catching one silly pothead.

The smuggling issues are far, far greater then this...and the players as well.
Red arowanas, clams, corals, rare turtles, rare snakes, powdered sea horses, bear gall bladders, tiger parts, pangolin scales, etc. cross borders every day.
The petticoat smuggler was a small but press driven fluff piece....comical and worthy of a spot on TVs dumbest criminals show".
"Tokenism" is a sore point here as it often takes the place of serious effort in all the environmental issues.
Steve