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JT

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As a retailer, you know it's slow everywhere when, in one week's time, you get solicited by every wholesaler on the West Coast.

But you know it's super slow when a brand new East Coast whoresaler calls you up and tries to impress you by stating they have plenty of Black Tip Sharks available for immediate delivery. They didn't really mention any other kind of livestock specifically, just came right out and mentioned the black tips first. :roll:

Pathetic.
 

logicalreef

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I feel ya man, email and phone solicts going nuts lately!

I'm thinking though, with all the black tips around, all those with leftover Nemo tanks will have something to push ;)

Peace, Bryan
 

JT

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logicalreef":35v6zljq said:
I'm thinking though, with all the black tips around, all those with leftover Nemo tanks will have something to push ;)
I have a pair of Black Tips in a betta bowl, don't you?

- JT
 

logicalreef

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I would man, but you know those damn wholesalers...you order 2 smalls and they always upfill to a large anyway! :)

Have a great weekend!
 

Kalkbreath

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What is the legal rules on Black tips ? We catch twenty plus babys a day when fishing this time a year in Fla? At seven hundred bucks each wholesale, I have thought about selling them ?
Indo sharks are legal but not Fla.?
How bout Ga sharks?
Dont even try to explain how they are in short supply and need to stay in the water........ Any salt water fisherman knows first hand that today ,there are too many sharks and too few fish . They need to be harvested and die a slow death in some newbies tank. :wink:
 

naesco

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They should be left in the ocean.

There should be serious fines for catching, selling and importing them.
 

Kalkbreath

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Even if the sharks are now at plague proportions? Even if the sharks are eating some fish species into local extinction?
We use to be able to fish and catch a nice mix of species.......now all that seem to be swimming about are sharks. The knee jerk save the sharks crowd have won..........they saved the sharks, but killed off most other species in doing so. What happened to the save the pogie crowd? Or what about the croaker lovers of America... Sharks are one of the few species that pose a real threat to the ecosystem if there are too many of them.
Just like Deer, too many of a good thing is a very bad thing. Deer have decimated many other species to near extinction in the woods of America. Many Wild flowers and native plants have also surcomed to too much of a furry thing. There are more native deer in America then when Native Americans lived in harmony with the land. Most estimates are twenty times more white tails today.
Judging by the recent aerial photos of Florida beaches, it seems there is a similar problem with sharks in the sunshine state.
I think we all would agree that humans do not have the right to wipe other species off the face of the earth. But neither should humans be allowed to pick and choose species we like best ,due to their cute and furriness {DEER} or mystic powers {sharks} and then let out favorite species expunge the remaining not so cute creatures.
 

naesco

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Kalkbreath

It is your responsibility to ensure that you only import and sell fish and coral that has some chance of success in reefers tanks.
Sharks are an obivious example as only a handful would have the size of tank necessary to provide the optimum conditions all critters require.

Most industry members acknowledge this and refuse to carry them along with clearner wrasse, dendros and the many other fish and coral that are on part of the unsuitable species list (USL).
There are always a few that are willing to do anything for a loonie.
 

Kalkbreath

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naesco":nl5dgh51 said:
Kalkbreath

It is your responsibility to ensure that you only import and sell fish and coral that has some chance of success in reefers tanks.
Within your response lays my reply, There are many hobbyists whom have had success with these and other sharks.
The "chance" for success has already been established.
Just like goniopora and elegant corals or even SPS corals twenty years ago, its the chance for success that drives the hobbyist and there have been many.
A guaranteed ability of our pets to survive the confinement should not alone determine which species and how many of that species we take home. Due to the fact that any fish or coral we take home might die, a 100 percent survival rate doesnt apply for any species. Its the guaranteed ability of the ocean to survive our taking things home that should be the yardstick with which we measure our role.
 
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Kalkbreath":7218cm0o said:
naesco":7218cm0o said:
Kalkbreath

It is your responsibility to ensure that you only import and sell fish and coral that has some chance of success in reefers tanks.
Within your response lays my reply, There are many hobbyists whom have had success with these and other sharks.
The "chance" for success has already been established.
Just like goniopora and elegant corals or even SPS corals twenty years ago, its the chance for success that drives the hobbyist and there have been many.
A guaranteed ability of our pets to survive the confinement should not alone determine which species and how many of that species we take home. Due to the fact that any fish or coral we take home might die, a 100 percent survival rate doesnt apply for any species. Its the guaranteed ability of the ocean to survive our taking things home that should be the yardstick with which we measure our role.

well said, actually :)
 

JennM

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While this topic seems to have deviated a bit from its original intent, I need to chime in here about Black Tip Sharks... because this is a huge sore spot to me right now.

I *had* a client who purchased a 210 g system from me. During the install, he mentioned wanting a shark or sharks. We strongly recommended against this, for a number of reasons, one of which being that the client doesn't do anything but feed the fish, we maintain(ed) his tanks every other week. We offered many appropriate suggestions for predatory fish to satisfy his bloodthirsty craving, but which were more suited to captive life, but nope, this guy had shark on the brain and wasn't going to settle for anything less.

Against our advice, and before his system was even fully cycled, he ran out to another dealer and bought a Black Tip. After about 6 weeks it perished in his care, the day before we were to return for maintenance. 13 days had passed since we were last at his home, and somehow he feels that we are responsible for this. He withheld payment of his maintenance account, asking for 'compensation' for the dead shark, which I respectfully declined.... I put it in the hands of my collection agent and now, since they still insist that this was "our fault" I'll be taking them to court for my money, and they will probably try to counter-sue me for the loss of the shark (good luck, they'll have a great time trying to prove care, custody and control...). Stupid, pointless mess, and there's yet another dead shark that some not quite newb bought even despite good advice to the contrary.

Unfortunately, those "testosterone fish" sell because people often have more money than brains, and it's all about the big thrill of having an alpha predator in their tank, with little or no thought for the long-term care or needs of the fish. In this case the shark, had it lived, would have quickly grown to the length of the tank. That is, if it didn't exhaust itself just trying to get enough flow through its gills to stay alive (that's what I believe happened). They claimed their pump failed (GFCI tripped - power surge?) but the pump was in working order when we arrived.... but hey the first power failure after the first thunderstorm of the season could have done that too.. But I digress........

If I believed that sharks and other seemingly grossly inappropriate specimens were actually going to appropriate homes, I suppose I'd have nothing to complain about, however in my few years in the trade I've seen way too many people do way too many stupid things - and their own lack of accountability (such as it is in the case of my (former) client), is very disheartening. Can't even blame faulty advice for my client's case - we were very clear, but he just decided to go elsewhere where they gave him the answers he wanted to hear, and they also were happy to relieve him of his money. IMO if he wants to sue anyone, it should be the dealer that ripped him off by selling him a specimen that was doomed to live a short life in captivity.... but hey, what do I know?

Back to the original topic at hand.... when I took the call from this new kid on the block wholesaler, the biggest selling point he used on me was that he had these sharks, I told him straight out that if he's trying to impress me, he's certainly going about it the wrong way. He emailed his stock list with "Black Tip Sharks in Stock" headlining it :( Sad.

Must be slow though, I've had a ton of calls from 104th in the last couple of weeks, and I don't even deal with anybody there. I've had calls from every upstart, transhipper, importer..... I'm not that big of a store, and I sure as heck am not that popular... it's amusing and more than a little annoying that everybody's letting their fingers do the walking for more bidnezz.

Jenn
 

tinyreef

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just curious, jenn, do you have your recommendations written down? cycle procedures, recommended testing levels, etc.?

your case reminds me of another industry i just had dealings with where "normal" processes are almost a given, i.e. services rendered, payment for said services, right? wrong. lawsuit and accusations back and forth.

now, they have the whole thing spelled out. which isn't so bad of an idea. i see that (i.e. instructions/procedures) in all the new fangled devices/methods in the hobby/industry. but you could see it had left a sour taste in the poor guy's mouth and he felt embarassed to present to me as such but i thought it was fine. (services rendered, payment expected-it's basically what i do too)

i also find it funny (ludicrous) that your former client's sueing you when he should be sueing the other guy. not only would his case be much stronger with you as an ally but it's the "right" thing to do rather than blame you for his own stupidity. (but that would just make too much sense, right?)
 

JennM

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When a client engages our services for ongoing maintenance, they get a list of fees and services, and a disclaimer concerning organisms we sell, and organisms purchased elsewhere... ie: we guarantee what we sell, but if the client opts to buy elsewhere, it voids any warranty we had. I can't control what comes from other dealers, and while most are reputable, some aren't. Even with the most conscientious of dealers, sometimes a sick fish is inadvertenly purchased. Crap happens... but after another maintenance client got peeved off at me last year because the fish they bought elsewhere, brought ich into their tank, and they were mad because I actually charged them to treat their fish/tank :roll: The fish that died were the ones bought elsewhere, everything I'd sold them actually survived (whew!), but all were infested for a time. Anyway, after that unpleasantness, I added in the bit about fish purchased elsewhere.

No contract is signed, per se, but the agreement is provided, with a statement that by engaging our services the client agrees to this - verbal agreement is binding here in GA. I've also learned to cut people off a lot sooner - I don't let accounts get too far behind before I suspend their service for non-payment. Had one a few years ago that always wrote bad checks, and she "fired" me for phoning her one too many times and asking her politely to please settle her account with cash or money order... I don't need customers like that, that's for sure. I've only ever had to send 2 accounts to collection, I can usually collect it myself, but this "shark dude" is one of them. The other was a restaurant who only called us when they screwed things up.... they owed me for 2 invoices and suddenly lost their command of the English language when I started to make collection calls. Amazingly, once my collection agent phoned them, they remembered how to speak English, and they wrote a check! ;)

What my client doesn't realize is that they're arguing apples and bowling balls. The bill they aren't paying is for tank cleaning service and merchandise... stuff we delivered and service we performed in a timely way, without adverse incident. A judge will look at the invoices, ask if we provided the goods and services as stated, and when we show that we did, they'll have to pay.

On the other hand, for the counter-suit, the burdon of proof shall lie with the client, to establish that some act or omission on our part, caused the untimely death of the shark. Not possible. Please drive through.

When I suspended their service for non-payment, I sent them a collection letter explaining all this, along with some facts about the shark, reiterating its inappropriateness for their system in the first place. I did put all that in writing, but after the fact. Still, it does not change the facts: They made a stupid decision, the fish they paid $900 for is now dead, and they are not willing to be accountable for their own choices.

Another interesting factoid... in February when the guy bought the thing, he came into my store to brag about it, and told us he paid $900 for it. Now that his $500 maintenance bill is in the hands of a collection agent, he's telling my agent that he paid $2,000 for the fish 8O and that's what he's going to sue me for. Hope he's got a receipt.

Either way I have liability insurance, so if he does decide to sue me, he can tangle with my insurance company's attorney. He's got a hell of an uphill battle to pin that animal's death on my company, so I'm not terribly worried about it, but I have to say that the inconvenience of it all is rather a pain in the rear, but that's a part of doing business. About once a year I get a customer that is totally unreasonable, so I just learn to deal with it. Anyone I've spoken with about this issue, who has even a tiny amount of aquarium experience/knowledge, just laughs when they hear about this - that customer should be ashamed of himself for having bought the fish in the first place, let alone threaten to sue my company over it.

Since all this went down I did amend my service agreement to cover this type of thing also though. Lessons learned....

OK... topic went right to crap again.... but I guess the info might be helpful ;)

Jenn
 

Kalkbreath

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Just to clarify, It was not my store that sold this shark.
We have never actually sold a black tip or even a nurse shark.
:D
 

sharkdealer

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Kalkbreath,
I'm new to the forum but wanted to save you some grief. The blacktips your catching in Florida are a different species than the Blacktip Reef Shark from Indo. The one from Florida (Carcharhinus limbatus) is far more active and oxygen demanding than the Indo Blacktip Reef (Carcharhinus melanopterus). I collect and transport the Florida species and it's a huge pain in the a**. They require a large live well with a circulation pump, pure oxygen bubbling in and constant monitoring and manipulating of water quality. The Indo BTR can be placed in a large bag blown up with O2 and will easily survive the 40+ hour trip by plane to the US. Also, the Indo BTR can be housed in a tank or pond 1/5 the size a Florida Blacktip would require. I hope this info helps. I'd hate to find out you wasted a bunch of time, money and sharks trying to get the Florida blacktips. By the way, how much are wholesalers asking for the Indo BTR's? I sell them for $800.00.
 

JennM

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Kalkbreath":id19voik said:
Just to clarify, It was not my store that sold this shark.
We have never actually sold a black tip or even a nurse shark.
:D

I don't know where it was purchased, I have an idea, but your place never really crossed my mind. Just hope they have a receipt ;)

Jenn
 
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Anonymous

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isn't summertime always the industry's slow season? why the surprise ?
 

JT

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vitz":2idfv3pi said:
isn't summertime always the industry's slow season? why the surprise ?
No one said anything aboot being surprised. You just know it's slow when you start getting an abnormal increase in solicitation and new whoresalers/transhippers trying to impress you with unethical crap.

- UncleJT
 

JennM

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vitz":24k920u0 said:
isn't summertime always the industry's slow season? why the surprise ?

Actually, last June was my best month EVER - which was a surprise to me. For some reason, the normal ebb and flow of seasons and volume doesn't always seem to apply in my place.

But yep, everybody and anybody has been trying to court my business.

Jenn
 

naesco

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Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.
 

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