Must be a slow time in the Industry...

[DustinDorton]

Any salt water fisherman knows first hand that today ,there are too many sharks and too few fish . They need to be harvested and die a slow death in some newbies tank. :wink:

I notice the wink, but after reading two of your posts, you seem to be of this opinion. Surely you are not serious. Globally speaking, shark populations are in grave danger. There isnt enough being done to protect them.

 

[mkirda]

Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.

So if I ethically create a habitat that can support a shark of some size, I should or shouldn't be able to get it, Wayne?

I could see someone with more money than sense creating an appropriately-sized habitat. To deny that person the right based on 'ethics' seems somewhat illogical.

However, that doesn't mean a retailer should sell one to some dude with a 55 gallon tank...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.

er.....

so if a coral has poor survival in the wild but survives well only in captivity, and mariculture, you'd qualify that for a usl?

if there's a temporary surplus of an animal, you'd leave it as a surplus, to overpredate ?

ever hear of 'culling' ?


there is nothing wrong, from the ocean's standpoint ,with harvesting any 'excess' of anything, and i'll have morality relative or absolute decided by me for me, and not by you, thank you-for you continully fail to grasp that all morality is relative,your adopting a posture of 'morality' without understanding that basic relatavistic quality of morality to begin with, make you, as a preacher, quite ludicrous.


what's your stance on fish farms that produce better yields per cubage/gallonage than oceans/lakes/rivers?

 

[mkirda]

Any salt water fisherman knows first hand that today ,there are too many sharks and too few fish . They need to be harvested and die a slow death in some newbies tank. :wink:

I notice the wink, but after reading two of your posts, you seem to be of this opinion. Surely you are not serious. Globally speaking, shark populations are in grave danger. There isnt enough being done to protect them.

Dustin,

Don't get sucked into this debate!

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

what's your stance on fish farms that produce better yields per cubage/gallonage than oceans/lakes/rivers?

Show me a single marine fish farm that can survive without massive inputs taken directly from the ocean. Without fish meal, the fish wouldn't survive.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

There are way too many sharks in some areas of Florida, yet too few sharks in most other places of the world. Just like that there are too many Deer in the woods of the USA, but too few in most other places in the world.
Like white band disease, a little is natural........but a lot is a bad thing
Neither sharks, Deer or white band disease make good pets for the average home . But Knowing the environment is a better place because of your selection of pets.............."Priceless'

 

[naesco]

Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.

So if I ethically create a habitat that can support a shark of some size, I should or shouldn't be able to get it, Wayne?

I could see someone with more money than sense creating an appropriately-sized habitat. To deny that person the right based on 'ethics' seems somewhat illogical.

If someone has a tank that meets the size requirements they should be able to specially order one.

My objection is catering to the testosterone crowd who feel the need to have a big fish at the expense of the fish.

 

[naesco]

Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.

er.....

so if a coral has poor survival in the wild but survives well only in captivity, and mariculture, you'd qualify that for a usl?

if there's a temporary surplus of an animal, you'd leave it as a surplus, to overpredate ?

ever hear of 'culling' ?


there is nothing wrong, from the ocean's standpoint ,with harvesting any 'excess' of anything, and i'll have morality relative or absolute decided by me for me, and not by you, thank you-for you continully fail to grasp that all morality is relative,your adopting a posture of 'morality' without understanding that basic relatavistic quality of morality to begin with, make you, as a preacher, quite ludicrous.


what's your stance on fish farms that produce better yields per cubage/gallonage than oceans/lakes/rivers?

What you display is typical industry dated thinking. That is what will get industry into trouble. The positive sign is more and more are moving away from this attitude.
Seriously do you support keeping sharks, blue ring octopus, dendros and other impossible to keep coral, the numerous fish that are on everyone's USL just because there may be lots of them in the ocean.
The issue is ethics. Something obviously you lack when it comes to ensuring that reefrtds are sold fish and coral that have a reasonable chance of success in their tanks.

 

[Kalkbreath]

My position is what if there are more then a lot of them........
How bout too many of them? Would it pass your sniff test if we started collecting crown of thorns starfish to prevent them from eating ninety percent of the Great Barrier Reef?
Does the animals health and well being come before or after the over all well being of the ecosystem?
Lets test your resolve on this issue,
There have been several attempts to reestablish corals on wild reefs where the original native corals died due to the conditions on these reefs falling below the necessary requirements to support coral growth.
Would you say that because most if not all of the attempts to regrow corals in these areas has resulted in failure and a slow painful death of the transplanted animals ..........that such attempts now matter how well the intentions are not worth the loss of life involved?

 

[DustinDorton]

Kalk, could you point me to some factual fisheries information showing that there are too many sharks in some parts of Florida?

 

[mkirda]

Seriously do you support keeping sharks, blue ring octopus, dendros and other impossible to keep coral, the numerous fish that are on everyone's USL just because there may be lots of them in the ocean.
The issue is ethics.

It isn't just ethics. But it isn't as black and white as you make it seem.
If I build an appropriate habitat for a shark, why not import them?
If I were to want to conduct research into what is necessary to keep dendros alive, why is this a problem?

I understand and support keeping some species out of stores, just to stop the impulse buyers who don't know what they are getting into, but for a seriously committed aquarist, what is the harm?

What you are going to face is how to draw the line between the 90-97% who are unqualified between the few that are.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
Easily, 90% of the baby red ear sliders [ turtles] are also killed by silly new owners.
Despite the fact that they are also the hardiest turtle there is.

Regulation by virtue of the competence level of the potential customer is an interesting legal precept to say the least.
One who has lost baby turtles may rant and rave to have them banned [ which they are for other reasons]....or one may search for their care requirements focusing on keywords...heat, light, water quality, nutrition etc.
Banning things due to personal incompetence and disinterest in research is more like revenge. "I can't do it so no one should...or should even try!"
Steve
The USL isn't an environmental issue...its more of PETA issue where Anglo guilt and therapy are the new keywords.

 

[mkirda]

The USL isn't an environmental issue...its more of PETA issue where Anglo guilt and therapy are the new keywords.

Here I would disagree with you. I think the USL is *generally* a good idea.
Why bring in a critter that has a dismal survival rate?

The question though is how do you balance that with making them available to people who are genuinely trying to advance the hobby? I'm all for making dendros available to someone who is willing to try to set up a tank that will fulfill their needs. But what is that, like maybe a dozen people in the country?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Kalk, could you point me to some factual fisheries information showing that there are too many sharks in some parts of Florida?

Dustin,

Now you've done it!

Let me predict how this will turn out.
Kalk will make the statement again, presented as a fact or forgone conclusion.
You will ask him again for evidence.
He will reply he heard it from someone or something.
You will point out that it is meaningless.
He will tell you that you need to provide him with references to back up *your* conclusion.
You will point out that it doesn't work that way - that *HE* was the one that made the statement and that you want him to back it up.
Kalk will then twist this into a 'fact' - that despite your valiant searches, Dustin could not come up with a single paper that shows that shark overpopulation is *not* responsible for the fish decline.
Kalk will blab this over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Kalk makes these ridiculous statements in order to goad people into meaningless and unproductive arguments. And you will soon learn, if you stick around and let this play out, that even if you handed him a stack of peer-reviewed research papers telling him that his argument is flat out wrong, he will just go back to square one, make the statement again and ignore any and all reasonable refutations.

How does the old saying go?
Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth?

Kalk needs his own personal section on Snopes.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Sharks...
Have been decimated in the Sea of Cortez....
Great Whites ...gasp...are making a serious come back in California....as are tigers in Hawaii.

And lots of places have lots of variables in place but it seems that fisherfolk do em in locally and factory ships take on the rest where ever they do not have to confront the US coast guard, Australias, New Zealands and much of Europes.

If they are making a comeback in Florida...which the rise in attacks suggests....isn't it an interesting item? This summer someone will die in Florida...and their family members will agree w/ Kalk. Jewfish are coming back there! Why not sharks?

USL...Mike,
How on earth do you attempt to legislate such a notion?
The feel good part is there I admit...but to ban em...and what exactly?
Its a moving target as advances in the trade narrow down the list yearly.

Big snakes are banned in Bremerton Washington. Why not everywhere?
Piranhas are banned in Washington and sharks in Arizona.
Would USL bans take on this willy nilly approach? As soon as you take government legislation as a remedy for anything...consider these Monty Pythonesque responses to whatever is brought up into the light of the knee-jerk legislative branches thru-out the land.

Item; shouldn't allow iguanas in private hands.
Some yes...others no. Now, split hairs as to how to play God on this stuff. Who gets to have em and who doesn't?
I can see it now...the MUP...Ministry of Unsuitable Pets as determined by ...by...well why not John Cleese?
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

If John Cleese is unavailable...
Perhaps Wayne Ryan
Commonwealthers do seem to share the same bent on the need for excessive Government control. I to understand this need. When watching children and toddlers, I believe in controlling their lives and keeping them from harm and wandering into the street.
Then, somewhere in the late teens, the grip and the 'controlling need' to run their lives lessens.
Steve

 

[DustinDorton]

You are right Mike, what was I thinking.

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.

er.....

so if a coral has poor survival in the wild but survives well only in captivity, and mariculture, you'd qualify that for a usl?

if there's a temporary surplus of an animal, you'd leave it as a surplus, to overpredate ?

ever hear of 'culling' ?


there is nothing wrong, from the ocean's standpoint ,with harvesting any 'excess' of anything, and i'll have morality relative or absolute decided by me for me, and not by you, thank you-for you continully fail to grasp that all morality is relative,your adopting a posture of 'morality' without understanding that basic relatavistic quality of morality to begin with, make you, as a preacher, quite ludicrous.


what's your stance on fish farms that produce better yields per cubage/gallonage than oceans/lakes/rivers?

What you display is typical industry dated thinking. That is what will get industry into trouble. The positive sign is more and more are moving away from this attitude.
Seriously do you support keeping sharks, blue ring octopus, dendros and other impossible to keep coral, the numerous fish that are on everyone's USL just because there may be lots of them in the ocean.
The issue is ethics. Something obviously you lack when it comes to ensuring that reefrtds are sold fish and coral that have a reasonable chance of success in their tanks.

I keep goni's, under your USL I wouldn't be allowed to. My goni's are frags from another hobbyists gonis, and they enjoy quite a nice lineage. We wouldn't see this animal being kept if you USL had it's way. Why? This guys is amazing and growing like mad. It takes some time, some do die in the process, but it can be figured out. How much xenia died before anyone actually got a living frag? I know one importer that killed thousands back in the day, just to get s few viable strains. How bout tubestrea? Many people are keeping, growing and trading sun coral now. They're taking the time to feed the stuff, so it's growing like mad for them. Under the USL, we wouldn't have had the chance. If the USL was made in the 80's, we woulnd't have any stony corals in the trade to speak of really. We've come pretty far on the SPS culturing since then, slightly

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz it is more than sustainability. Have you not learned that yet.
It is also ethics.

Industry should not remove any creatures from the oceans that have little chance of sucess. In the case of sharks they are too large for all but a few aquariums and should be left in the ocean.

er.....

so if a coral has poor survival in the wild but survives well only in captivity, and mariculture, you'd qualify that for a usl?

if there's a temporary surplus of an animal, you'd leave it as a surplus, to overpredate ?

ever hear of 'culling' ?


there is nothing wrong, from the ocean's standpoint ,with harvesting any 'excess' of anything, and i'll have morality relative or absolute decided by me for me, and not by you, thank you-for you continully fail to grasp that all morality is relative,your adopting a posture of 'morality' without understanding that basic relatavistic quality of morality to begin with, make you, as a preacher, quite ludicrous.


what's your stance on fish farms that produce better yields per cubage/gallonage than oceans/lakes/rivers?

What you display is typical industry dated thinking. That is what will get industry into trouble. The positive sign is more and more are moving away from this attitude.
Seriously do you support keeping sharks, blue ring octopus, dendros and other impossible to keep coral, the numerous fish that are on everyone's USL just because there may be lots of them in the ocean.
The issue is ethics. Something obviously you lack when it comes to ensuring that reefrtds are sold fish and coral that have a reasonable chance of success in their tanks.

I keep goni's, under your USL I wouldn't be allowed to. My goni's are frags from another hobbyists gonis, and they enjoy quite a nice lineage. We wouldn't see this animal being kept if you USL had it's way. Why? This guys is amazing and growing like mad. It takes some time, some do die in the process, but it can be figured out. How much xenia died before anyone actually got a living frag? I know one importer that killed thousands back in the day, just to get s few viable strains. How bout tubestrea? Many people are keeping, growing and trading sun coral now. They're taking the time to feed the stuff, so it's growing like mad for them. Under the USL, we wouldn't have had the chance. If the USL was made in the 80's, we woulnd't have any stony corals in the trade to speak of really. We've come pretty far on the SPS culturing since then, slightly

indeed, gresh, indeed

as i stated previously, naesco only seems to able to deal in absolute terms, in an area where relativism really is paramount, most of the time

not making distinctions of degree is very dangerous....


hey naesco, what would you say to having all pedestrian deaths by car drivers REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCE, to be considered as murder in the first degree? :lol:

 

[mkirda]

You are right Mike, what was I thinking.

I'm just warning ya!

I used to think it was important to counter all of the outrageous claims.
I don't bother playing Whack-a-mole anymore, especially when each new mole get progressively more outrageous.

Ramming your head into a brick wall is going to be more productive.

Sharks being the cause of low fish counts. Gotta admit, on one level, it *is* funny... And I am sure it is even funnier to the Kalk-meister to see people get their undies all up in a bunch over one of his subtle jokes.

Regards.
Mike Kirda