cyanide fishing in the Phillipines

[clarionreef]

Now Kalk,
The trade does do plenty of damage and an institutional methodology that kills a coral head per fish caught is actually insane...but nothing interests hobbyists or dealers less then this topic.

Its also true that other things lay waste to reefs and are pointed to by the trade to exonerate itself.

I for one have spent 20 years testifying to the extent of damage done by a trade that villifies you for it. No one but Mike and a handful of others really want to hear it....and even fewer want to hear of training methods and remedys....
There is no audience for this stuff and even less interest in solving it.
The rise of the NGO industry has diverted the discussion and let the bad guys off scott free. The whitewash of the crime filters thru environmental hands and has let the trade off the hook by covering for it.
The eco-certification scheme exhalting the greatest offenders speaks volumes and is akin to the certification of Japanese whaling.

And so Mike....I have no idea who the bad guys are anymore.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

We have been round and round with this issue many times. The idea that the trade juice fishing is responsible for much of the current reef decline has never been supported ....few photos that reflect what ornamental fishing damage looks like.......repeated failure in lab test, {fish die before the corals} and test fish collected with cyanide in the field seem to live for years after the exposure. The fish have a lower thresh hold then the corals , thus its unlikely that collectors could collect fish [alive] using the levels of poison required to kill coral [beyond a few inches from the squirt bottle.] Theres more evidence that big foot exists then wide spread cyanide damage by the hobby.
Having said that , I still wish the industry would ban Imports from PI for a spell , because then we could set back and watch the food fishermen take thier rightful blame as reef after reef continues to turn white.

 

[naesco]

Minimizing the damage by the trade does it a disservice. Acknowleging the damage is the first step in figuring out how to reverse it. The knowledge base is there. We've just been want to apply it, mostly because it is going to force some people to change

You hit the nail on the head, Mike.

The same is true of the USL (unsuitable species list).
To debate which coral and fish are or are not on the list is fair.
To troll the oceans and sell fish and coral that have no chance in a reefers tank and sell them to newbies does a disservice to our hobby.

 

[mkirda]

Hey, Mike ever find a photo of all that so called wide spread destruction by the trade? like you promised us three years ago?
Thought not.

Where's my check?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Minimizing the damage by the trade does it a disservice. Acknowleging the damage is the first step in figuring out how to reverse it. .

Actually finding the damage is the appropriate first step.
Please explain when or where you saw evidence of trade fishing ?

 

[mkirda]

Minimizing the damage by the trade does it a disservice. Acknowleging the damage is the first step in figuring out how to reverse it. .

Actually finding the damage is the appropriate first step.
Please explain when or where you saw evidence of trade fishing ?

Read the article.

Am still looking for the check.

 

[bookfish]

Hi Mike, could you post a link to the article so we could check it out.
Thx-Jim

 

[Kalkbreath]

Minimizing the damage by the trade does it a disservice. Acknowleging the damage is the first step in figuring out how to reverse it. .

Actually finding the damage is the appropriate first step.
Please explain when or where you saw evidence of trade fishing ?

Read the article.

Am still looking for the check.

What check was that? And what artical should I read? Your last publication showed a few fist sized holes with bleached areas around the holes extending out a few inches..... Thus I coined the term eel rubbings because these holes looked like moray eel homes , and the eels had warn down the sides.
I admit the holes could have had cyanide squirted in them and thats what caused the margines to bleach......but were talking about very tiny amount of harm to the reef even if it was caused by hobby collectors. Which kinda means your findings support my notion that hobby damage doesnt amount to more then a few inches away from the point of the squirt.

 

[mkirda]

What check was that?

I'm glad you asked. Last time you and I went round and round on this 'picture' thing, I explained to you how I went on a dive to observe net-caught fishermen. THEY were the subject I was trying to photograph, NOT EVIDENCE OF CYANIDE. The fact that I took a handful of coral pics, and that of those, I was able find a picture that showed something that you stated DIDN'T EXIST should have been the end of it. Kalk says cyanide damage doesn't exist. Mike posts a photo showing that it does. End of argument.

BUT NO. Since I didn't have a bazillion other photos of every other coral in the Philippines showing cyanide damage on every single one, you can somehow justify the refutation of your statement. You then go on to state that I took a week long tour with hundreds of dives and this is the best I can come up with?

You want the evidence. I offered to my services up as photographer. You want evidence of cyanide destruction, I'll give it to you. I gave you a fairly detailed estimate of what it would cost. I only want to cover my costs, not make a profit. I maintain the right to use the scanned images, you can have the originals to use in any way you see fit, I get credit for the images only. It is a STEAL, as you pay only costs and NO ROYALTIES.
I gave you the proposal and still await your approval and check.

You want the evidence, I can get it for you, and it will be a BARGAIN.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Your telling me had you seen Big Foot you would not have taken his or her photo ........because you were only interested in photographing its foot prints?
You and others claim there are monster sized atrocities caused by the trade.........show someone what that looks like!

 

[Kalkbreath]

There is a direct comparison between Tonga and PI.
Back when the idea of fishing reeforms being needed in the Philippines first began to gain interests, we never asked to see proof that the hobby was harming the reefs in PI.
Why not?

Recently these same people are claiming that Tonga would be a nice place to set up Guardianship.
Again I ask for proof that the current systems need improvement?

 

[clarionreef]

Collectors in the Visayas migrated to Luzon in search of fish in the 80's as they ruined their own grounds....I lived with a dozen of them for year and we enjoyed hundreds of hours of dialogue about this and other things.
They married Tagalogs and became Northeners....They also brought their cyanide with them and used it daily and everywhere til soon the reefs off Zambales and Pangasinan looked as bad as the ones off Buhol and Cebu.
They would laugh as I suggested dynamite fishing to be the main cause of the destruction...Yes but the noise kept dynamiters futher afield. Cyanide was silent and you could even catch fish near the Coast guard boats...one told me.
They knew exactly what their own effect was as they lived with the consequences and had to shift to new grounds constantly.
As no one else targeted their target species...and since they knew what and they had done and where...they knew it was their reefs to kill...and owned up to it.
Coral snot was a common sight in fishing with these guys and They told me it was from yesterdays cyanide fishing. I came to see it as well for my self. The day after the mucous coming off the coral heads was serious.

Dead...intact coral....where there were no rivers with run-off and no dynamite breakage.

Documented evidence? What fair weather panty waisted fisheries egg head would have ever been there with those guys to witness it?
They never would have gotten close...It took me a month to earn their trust and I did so by diving and collecting with them...and with cyanide as well to become one of them.
To call for data and the fruit of evidence so far after the destruction is silly.
This industry has covered up the best it can what it has done and the environmental community has joined them as unwitting ...then eventually witting ACCOMPLICES.
Evidence it easy to come by if one wants it.
The fact that so few have ever wanted it makes kalks request a bit sly.

The evidence of dead reefs, acre after acre in collecting areas is ofen diluted by the widespread destruction....
In a parking lot of dead coral...the evidence gets harder to come by...ironically.

Recruitment and recovery can be exciting and dynamic in the temperate zones and even in the sub-tropical ones. In eco-systems tied to coral cover however....the good news is hard to find in a trade hell bent on ruining its slow growing critical habitat.


Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

I have read where you testified to congress that food fishing with cyanide was ramped at the same time MO collectors and food fish collectors fished side by side.
How do you tell the difference between the two? Did you witness huge blankets of snot when collecting two ounce copperbands? You cant , not and have the fish live.
Yes, When the fish were still plentiful in the early eighties, collectors could over juice the targets with high concentrations. With so many fish there were still plenty to take home alive even if 3/4ths were dead.
For the past twenty years fish In PI have been few and far between.
The idea that today collectors are throwing cyanide pellets overboard and scooping up fish doesn't stand up today.
Peters Data also showed that a twenty percent cyanide rate , translates into too few cyanide fish per square mile of reefs for our hobby to do much more then a few spots here and there. Twenty percent of 12 million worked out to about sixty fish per square mile per year.

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
First,
I don't believe in much that has passed for 'data' on this stuff. I know what I saw and lived. I know that a small dose of poison creates a small, slowly increasing catastrophe for coral heads from experience.
I killed some myself and I don't know of any other honkeys who have except for maybe Herbert Axelrod in juicing fishes for his books.

"When your coral head is runny...
don't think its funny...
cuz its snot."
The data was rarely collected, rarely witnessed and rarely photographed.
For me, the commonplace reality was so obvious that I never thought about seeking proof for distant skeptics a decade in the future.
Since training divers was so matter of fact the way to solve the problem....I knew we'd get it done in a year or two and negate the issue all together.
The point was and still is the resolution...not the recreational debate.
Its too late however on many reefs. The old coral is gone and the little stuff has a lot of catching up to do before it can provide the cover needed to create the bio-mass of the healthy reefs.

The food fish thing was and is still largely a Western Philippines thing as the smuggling ships to Hong Kong operated in the wilder areas of Palawan...and off shore.
Most fish tropical collecting was not done there....
Tropicals come from all over and where illegal smuggling boats most often do not.

Steve
Cyanide is a poison...and behaves like a poison...not a sophoric, [ sedative] and its sophmoric to suggest a benign effect on living tissues.
Aside from many worthwhile and insightful out of the box perspectives....this one is off base my friend.
Rush Limbaugh, Bill Reilly and what ever anti-eco talk show host you listen to out there in Atlanta has little to offer on this subject area.

 

[Kalkbreath]

If you admit you weren't thinking about the total picture while you were there. in the 1970s
would that not make it all the more important to do so now.
No body is saying cyanide doesn't kill coral.
The question is how much of it was our trades?
There have been fishermen caught with all sorts of coral killing collection aids in the state of Florida like bleach Quinaline and such .........Are these Fla.fishermen responsible for the lack of live coral in the Keys in 2005?
The Philippines are a huge area of reefs, Its just not possible for such a large area to have been effected by so few fish being removed with cyanide even if like food fish .......each fish was collected with poison.
You bring up the live food fish trade. Yes there was somewhat of a paper trail to follow on the Hong Kong trade and it was clear to see that the seafood industry was fifty timer greater in dollars, fish collected with poison and in the amount of cyanide used per fish.

But the amount of Live food fish collected with cyanide pales in comparison to the local consumption dead food fish collected with poison!
All the fish were hard to collect back then , there was plenty of coral cover for which to hide in . The natives used cyanide to collect their dinners and their paychecks for twenty years.
You claim it took 4,000 collectors to collect 12 million fish a year back then.
how many squirt bottles does it take to collect fish for 90,000,000. people whom eat mostly free fish as their weekly meat.?
Yes, the industry played their part, but its hard to find a scenario in which our part could have been more then 1 percent of the problem.

 

[clarionreef]

You claim it took 4,000 collectors to collect 12 million fish a year back then.
:lol: did not...

how many squirt bottles does it take to collect fish for 90,000,000. people whom eat mostly free fish as their weekly meat.?
90,000,000 million eating wild caught reef fish a week?
:roll:
No wonder you drive real academics nutz.
This Kalk-math is more a sign of dyslexia then anything else.

The trade we're in ruins critical habitat and hence fish populations of the fish we're most interested in.
Food fish people ruin critical habitat and hence fish populations of fish their most interested in.
And we all come together to produce a poorer fish producing reef system for all concerned.

In terms of sheer mass destruction...the food fish trade is surely greater.
In terms of damage to habitat specific aquarium fish populations and produce for our industry ...we do a great deal of the damage. Wheres the glory and comfort in that?
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Yes, the industry played their part, but its hard to find a scenario in which our part could have been more then 1 percent of the problem.

I want to see you put this argument in front of a judge.
I only killed one person, Mr. Judge. Hitler killed 6 million.
Pol Pot killed 3 or 4 million. I only killed one! I'm not responsible!
They are!

Do you have any idea how your argument makes you sound, Kalk?
Guilty is guilty, regardless of the percentage.
I'm glad to see you finally 'fess up the industry is guilty.
I feel like you have finally taken a step forward, even if it was unintentional. Yet somehow I feel like you will squirm like a worm on a hook trying to minimalized your admission of industry's complicity.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

I've never understood the need to cover up for those ruining us....the reefs, the fish quality, the lives of fisherman...

If someone sells you a faulty watch...what do you do? Cover-up?

If someone sells you a puppy with a heart murmur, what do you do? Cover-up?


For decades this disposition to whitewash ourselves and rally behind anyone opposing reform has been self destructive. The resistance to getting it right has helped to perpetuate the crime and the inequity.

Why on earth should a dealer ever accept the mind-set that brings him poisoned, coral killing livestock generated in a more corrupt historical era of a couple of countries??
Why would we adopt a mindset we personally find repugnant?
To make himself appear clean to the customers?
Why not own up to it and work to change it...and see if customers will respect you for it?

Or do you think that they are of the same low standard of ethics that the cover-up [ shhhhh!] up makes the dealers .

Most dealers I know on the subject are of two minds on this;
1] Their own private mind
and 2] the public one. 8) [ sun glasses denoting slick used car salesman]
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

There have been fishermen caught with all sorts of coral killing collection aids in the state of Florida like bleach Quinaline and such .........Are these Fla.fishermen responsible for the lack of live coral in the Keys in 2005?

Mmmm OK, problem with that statement is that it's legal *IF* you have a permit, to use quinaldine in the state of Florida. Mind you, it's the only place on earth it's legally ok to use a drug to capture fish, but it is legal with a permit in hand :roll: .

 

[PeterIMA]

It seems that we have come back to discussing cyanide fishing and Kalk is back trying to blame anybody other than the aquarium trade. My problem with his arguments is that he makes unsubstantiated suppositions and distorts whatever data actually exists (like what I have published).

First, I should state that I visited Santiago Island near Bolinao with Steve Robinson and Dr. Don McAllister during 1986 and met the aquarium fish collectors whom Steve befriended in 1982-1984. I witnessed the reef destruction that Steve has described today in this forum. We photographed corals and published the results in 4 articles published in Marine Fish Monthly during 1987. The reef destruction from cyanide use near Bolinao can be attributed largely to the aquarium trade, since there was no food fish collecting with cyanide in that area of PI.

I also obtained unpublished data from Vic Albaladejo who was with the Coral Reef Research group within BFAR. Two sets of experiments off of Cebu confirmed that spraying cyanide from squirt bottles killed corals in test quadrats in comparison to control quadrats that were not exposed to cyanide. So, there was data (that I published during 1987) that supports what the collectors on Santiago Island told me in 1986, that also agrees with what Steve observed in 1982-83, and what the collectors told him at that time. So, there is direct information obtained from the collectors that substantiates that the use of cyanide by aquarium fish collectors was detrimental to coral reefs. It took another 20 years before James Cervino experimentally confirmed this with both lab studies (on 8 genera of corals and one sea anemone species) and with field studies (published in the Marine Pollution Bulletin during 2003).

As far as the use of cyanide by the food fish trade, we know it occurrs. My paper concerning the CDT lab results obtained by the IMA published in a paper in a book concerning the CDT confirmed that groupers sampled in the PI had very high incidences of cyanide present. The IMA did not do cyanide testing in other countries where groupers are captured for the live food fish trade. So, while we know from many sources (e.g., interviews with fishermen, studies by WWF and other NGOs, published papers) that cyanide is widely used in both the aquarium fish and food fish trades, it is difficult to generalize about how much relative damage to coral reefs by cyanide fishing can be attributed to each trade. I believe that the live aquarium fish and live food fish trades and the dead food fish trades are all very detrimental to the coral reefs and their associated fish communties.

As far as the impacts on fish standing stocks (fish abundances) I have not attempted to extrapolate from the cyanide testing to what that means in terms of fish abundances per unit area (on a square meter or square kilometer basis). While sufficient information exists for some rough estimates, the numbers being posted on this forum by Kalk are totally bogus. Please do not attribute these numbers to me, since I have not provided any such extrapolations (either on this forum or in published papers).

Lets wait for the MAC and ReefCheck to do their underwater surveys and for them to publish the results in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. I suspect that if this ever happens, the trade would be shut down because the habitat destruction (from all types of destructive fishing) is so severe.

Peter Rubec, Ph.D
Fisheries Research Scientist