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Zeppelin

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Well, for the second time in as many months, Delta Airlines has screwed up and stalled my shipment of corals and fish overnight in Atlanta. :( This happened last month to a shipment, with a 98% loss. Amazingly, two yellow tangs survived, along with a tube anemone. All other coral and fish perished. This claim is still outstanding from Delta. Now I have another three boxes of corals and fish sitting in Atlanta that went out of LA on Thursday evening. They look, based on their website, to be set for shipment tomorrow morning. As a side note, the shipment was setup for "first freight".

Do I have the right to refuse the shipment, and have it sent back to the shipper? Do I have the right to stop any payment on the shipment to the shipper? Will doing this, if I do not have the right to stop payment to the shipper, void any of my rights to claim?

I appreciate any information you may be able to give.

Thanks

Larry
 

CarribeanLovers

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I would contact the shipper to see what their policies are regarding this. Also contact Delta and ask them about if you refuse the shipment but still have to pay your supplier if you are entitled to placing claim. I have never ran into this problem - thank goodnes - but I know it happens a lot.

By the way, can you change airlines for your cargo shipments? I have been using US Air without any problems and I have heard that Northwest is pretty good. Plus, US Air seems to have the lowest rates.

Good Luck


-Kelly
 

naesco

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You need to talk directly with the management. Remind them that they are liviing creatures and ask them what they intend to do to ensure that it does not happen again. Put it in writing.
Never accept a shipment if you have reason to suspect anything and have it returned to the wholesaler.
 
A

Anonymous

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Wayne, you have no clue, please remain silent.

If you refuse the shipment, be prepared never to use said airline again (black balling is REAL). Some one has to pay, either you or your wholesaler. If you refuse and the wholesaler picks up the tab, be prepared never to do buisness with them again (they'll black ball you for refusing a shipment). You will loose all rights to any claims if you refuse the shipment. The proper way to take care of this is for you to make a claim right when you pick up your stuff, but you will have to wait to be paid. Make sure you choose the worst box to open first. As far as the shipper, it wasn't their fault, now was it ;) why punish them for the airlines fault? Work with them on the shipment, if they're a stand up company, they'll offer support. I always do when a situation like this arises. The last thing you want to do is ruin your wholesale and airline connections :D
 

Zeppelin

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I realize it was not the wholesaler's fault, but it wasn't mine either. Why should I be made to pay for a shipment of dead corals and fish? BTW, this is a transhipper I am dealing with.

I sent a shipment of corals to a customer a couple months back, on a Thursday. They were sent UPS Next Day Air, for Friday delivery. The package was not delivered until Monday. UPS said it was up to ME, the shipper, to make the claim. So I refunded the customer, and filed the claim with UPS. I DID get compensated since it was their error for not delivering on time. Why, when an airline and wholesaler/transhipper are involved does the responsibility switch to the shop to first eat the shipment, then hassle with the airlines?

In all fairness, I DID talk to my SDC rep a couple weeks ago, and mentioned about a loss the month prior with another wholesaler, and my SDC rep said if that happened on one of their shipments, THEY would do the claim for their customer. Cudos to them for that statement. His statement was that the airline woiuld first contact the shipper anyways to pay the claim. Is that correct?

My first loss was with a wholesaler. I was less than happy with their response. Out of a $398 loss, they gave me $88 credit, since it wasn't THEIR fault, and instructed me to file a claim with the airlines. Its been over 30 days and just a couple days ago I finally heard from Delta, with a claim number being assigned to my claim. No telling how long it will take to get reimbursement for the shipment. This order is twice that, I know not allot compared to what some of you spend weekly, but will be allot for me to swallow. Especially since my other claim is unresolved.

Any further input is greatly appreciated.

Larry
 

dizzy

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IME if you plan on transhipping you better be prepared to deal with a lot of loses. I'd personally like to see the practice made illegal and all fish and corals tanked and rebagged after a suitable rest period in the quickest point of entry into the country. In 20-years I've never refused a shipment, although a few have been mishandled and the body count and the stench it created in the store was sickening. Transhipping is a damn poor way to try and save a few bucks IMO but to each his own. I've often adviced newbies to stick with one or two good wholesalers and forget jumping all around. Pretty much any wholesaler is going to work with, and try and help any good customer when disaster strikes. I've had Southwest drop the freight charges a few times when they didn't make it by the guaranteed time, but I just split the fish loses with the shipper and life goes on. In this business you win some and you lose some once in awhile. I always pay extra and use the Rush service Southwest offers. It may cost me a little more but getting the fish and corals in a timely manner is important to me.

IME I never like dealing with Delta. The Southwest crew is better by a factor of about 10 x. If you are in an area with poor airline service you may always experience problems. Rick Oellers up in Maine was a classic example. He had problem after problem and is in no small way responsible for many outsiders thinking this trade has 30-50% DOA. If you want to have a retail store and you live in an area where you can't get fish in a timely manner then I think you should move somewhere that has good service. I'm sorry about your loss, I know it hurts most in the early days when your trying to get started.
Mitch
 

Zeppelin

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I'd have to say, I am beginning to agree. I deal with one transhipper primarily. Sometimes the shipments are great, most times I have to say I incur more losses there than with the wholesalers. One of the reasons I started dealing with transhippers is that I move allot of zoanthids, and it seemed I got much better zoos from the transhipper than wholesalers. I attributed that to the zoos being closed when the transhipper got them, and me having as good a chance as anyone to get some nice ones. I had heard so much about the jobbers and cherry pickers working through the wholesalers and snagging all the good product. One of my wholesalers has been getting me some stellar zoanthids lately, so that reason is now invalid. I am also hearing that the "cherry picking" is being discouraged, or cut out completely at some wholesalers. As a small business, I am glad to hear that.

Both my major losses have occurred due to the ineptness of Delta, rather than the poor packing, etc. from the wholesaler or transhipper. On a side note, looking at Delta's website this morning, the shipment was held all day in LA, not Atlanta. Didn't even leave LA until last evening. Warmer there, so thats good, I hope. They did sit all evening in Atlanta last night though, so I'm still expecting the worst.

Thanks for all the help and input. From the reputation of this board elsewhere in the reefing community, I was prepared to be burned at the stake, especially when the word transhipper came out of my mouth. ;) I appreciate the professional courtesy that has been shown here. :)

Wish me luck. ;)

Larry
 

JeremyR

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The difference with SDC is they often ship on their own shipping account, so it is their deal to file the claim. When you have something shipped freight collect, then it becomse YOUR responsibility to file the claim. And when you tranship, there is generally no guarantee anyways.. even if it's on time from your source.. that's why it's cheaper. Tranship to the east coast is never safe unless you have a redeye nonstop connection, and is still chancy. If you do the math on the DOA of tranship to live arrival guaranteed wholesale, and factor in aggrivation.. tranship is rarely better for us east coasters. It only takes one or 2 really bad tranship orders to cure you of wanting to keep doing it.
 

Zeppelin

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Well, unbelievably, I only have 6 DOA fish, and NO DOA corals. The heat packs were even still warm. The water was a little cold, so I am a little worried about the Montipora Digitata, and caps. Even the yellow devil's hands look OK. I consider myself VERY lucky on this one.
 

dizzy

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The cooler temps actually work in your favor. The heat of summer is not so kind on delayed shipments. O2 demand is higher at higher temps.
Mitch
 

JennM

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I think where you're located has much to do with performance of any given airline. I LOVE Delta... but I am in its hub. I've had one claim from Delta... my freight was in their warehouse but they couldn't find it. I was there one night, no freight, so I had to come back the next morning when they located it. I got a partial refund of shipping charges for my trouble. Fair enough - no losses of livestock.

About 3 times, wholesalers have sent America West, which is handed off to Continental Airlines at this end. Twice, my freight got lost. Once was an extra day... I think I split the difference with the wholesaler, and got all of the shipping charges back from America West/Continental, and another time live rock got lost for 2 days, and I got full refund for shipping charges. Rock was a bit stinkier than usual but it was fine. My biggest beef with America West/Continental is that one time I used my credit card to pay, and suddenly somebody in Gilbert, AZ (which is near America West's head office in Phoenix) began using my credit card number at pizza joints... :roll: So I had to cancel my credit card, contact the fraud squad... yadda yadda. I complained directly to America West and never even got so much as a form letter apologizing for my inconvenience.

I like Delta. My freight always arrives on time, can always recover it quickly, the folks at the counter know my name... it's all good.

I do realize for freight that has to pass through Atlanta it often gets sucked into the void... but Atlanta terminating freight never seems to be a problem.

Jenn
 

Zeppelin

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My stuff comes into CMH. I have since had my shippers use a Delta flight that goes through Cincinnati instead of Atlanta. This flight from LA has a layover in Cinti, but then continues to Columbus without the cargo ever coming off. :)
 

dizzy

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JennM":35hoefi9 said:
I LOVE Delta... but I am in its hub. Jenn

Jenn,
How much does Delta charge per # from LA to Atlanta? Do you use a regular service or express?
Mitch
 

Zeppelin

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Well, ANOTHER Delta delay today. This time from Cincinnati. Shipment got to Cinti this morning from LA. Was scheduled on a morning flight from Cinti to Columbus. Its now 8:30 pm and the shipment is still not here in Columbus. Deltas website shows it now scheduled for the last flight tonight into Columbus, to arrive at 9:30 tonight. New Delta acronym:

D idnt
E ven
L eave
T he
A irport!

:(

Time to use a different airline for sure.
 
A

Anonymous

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naesco":3ps9u1ke said:
You need to talk directly with the management. Remind them that they are liviing creatures and ask them what they intend to do to ensure that it does not happen again. Put it in writing.
Never accept a shipment if you have reason to suspect anything and have it returned to the wholesaler.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
 

JT

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Mitch:

Not sure what general is running, but we do Delta Dash from SNA for .70cents/pound.

- JT
 

JennM

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I haven't tallied the rate lately but it's around 70-75 cents/lb, regular "priority first". I think I got one by Dash once but it was last minute and I think the shipper ate price the difference, because they prepaid the freight and invoiced me for it, so I didn't see what the difference may have been.

I don't only get from LAX, but all who ship to me have direct flights from their location to ATL so the freight gets on the plane and gets off, with no milk run in between. Once a shipment sent America West/Continental was laid over in Phoenix for 6 hours and it was 105 degrees there, so needless to say every Euphyllia in the shipment melted down :( That's why I specify to send Delta, because for me, it's the best option. I don't doubt that there are service problems to other areas... it all depends what airline is the main one in your area. For me it's Delta and I've had very few issues with them (there now I've jinxed myself!). By and large the flights are on time, and recovery time is a bit slower in Atlanta than in some other centers, but I can usually get my freight within 3 hours of arrival. I pick up most orders and have them tanked in less than 24 hours of their pack time, and sometimes when the planets are all aligned it can be 12 hours or less... but that's more the exception than the rule.

Wayne -- you really need to get a clue. Have you ever picked up a live shipment at the airport? Uh huh... didn't think so, or you wouldn't have conjured up such a flip remark. Any airline carries a suprising amount of live animals, and other time-sensitve cargo. Fresh foodstuffs, live plants, newspapers, fish, birds, dogs, cats, and even human remains. Wish I had a dollar for every time I've helped a funeral director move a casket or two around in the hearse or the van because he had one or two on board when he stopped at the airport to pick up another, and I've helped him load the pickup one too. I've often laughed to myself that if there's a LFS truck waiting to pick up, and a hearse, the hearse always gets loaded first, regardless of who was there first at the freight counter... I find humour in the fact that the deceased gets hurried service, and the person waiting for a live shipment has to wait... something ironic in that. However I can say that every time I've seen a funeral director at the airport, his cargo has been treated with utmost care and dignity. But I digress...

Ask any pilot of your aquaintance about the "Dead Dog Switch"... that pressurizes the cargo hold :lol: That's a whole other subject too!

The airlines are very aware of the needs of the freight they carry, but as the saying goes, **** happens. I'm not minimizing the importance of taking proper care of live freight, but they handle enough of it that taking somebody aside and lecturing them in the finer points of timely delivery isn't going to have much effect - they are well aware. I read someplace recently (although I don't recall the source) that the two main types of cargo that leave Tampa International Airport are live fish, and human remains. Lots of fish farms in central FL... and lots of seniors going home to their final resting places. And the sheer volume of livestock that comes and goes from LAX on a daily basis must be mind-boggling. So to presume that the airlines are clueless, is rather silly, IMO.

Keep in mind also, that if the flight is late... nevermind the cargo, there's a tube full of disgruntled passengers there too. Even if fish can't remind the airline staff of their need to be punctual - passengers are infintely more vocal.

I'd venture to guess that the majority of airline delays stem from weather. When one airport shuts down due to a storm or other emergency, it fouls up the whole system because many planes fly in a circuit. Disturb one stop in the circuit, and it frigs up everything... connecting flights, stopovers, the whole bit. One storm that bogs down O'Hare or JFK or anywhere, has a huge ripple effect on the entire system, causing delays far beyond the point that's experiencing a problem. Ever notice most problems occur in winter?

When an airline "causes" a service failure, like Gresham said, the best way to deal with it is to accept the shipment, pay for it, and then when it's brought out, have an airline staffer with authority, come out with you and crack open a box or two, and file a claim on the spot. Delta isn't exactly fast with the refund, but it will come, and given the nature of this business, it's something that we have to anticipate will happen from time to time, and be prepared to deal with it accordingly, financially and otherwise. Talk to your supplier, but don't punish them for something beyond their control, and they will work with you to a resolution that is mutually agreeable. This type of thing is a painful inconvenience at times, but it's a calculated risk we take, and we can and should be able to handle the occasional problem. If you are having consistent problems with a particular airline, then perhaps it's time to change airlines.

Refuse to pay for the shipment and you won't be using that airline again. Refuse to pay the wholesaler, and you won't be buying from them again either. It's best to just follow procedure, and keep the lines of communication open all around, and preserve those good relationships that it takes so long to build.

Jenn
 

kylen

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As an ex-Delta employee, I find this discussion rather amusing. This topic is my single biggest frustration that I deal with. But...to the uninitiated, fish shipments are supposed to be packed to be left unattended by the airlines for 48 hours from the time of acceptance. Check the IATA Live Animal regulations, that has the guidelines for handling the fish from both the airlines point of view as well as the shippers. Just remember 48 hours...this is the magic number.
 

naesco

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kylen":6ug3qlrn said:
As an ex-Delta employee, I find this discussion rather amusing. This topic is my single biggest frustration that I deal with. But...to the uninitiated, fish shipments are supposed to be packed to be left unattended by the airlines for 48 hours from the time of acceptance. Check the IATA Live Animal regulations, that has the guidelines for handling the fish from both the airlines point of view as well as the shippers. Just remember 48 hours...this is the magic number.

Kyle are you experiencing problems at YVR?
Do the airlines often exceed the IATA regs?
Notwithstanding IATA, do the airline staff take steps to ensure that live cargo is handled in priority to other cargo?

Jenn I don't think the priority given to the deceased is funny at all.
It is a matter of tradition and respect. It was my experience as a baggageman for the CNR, priority was always given for the removal of a casket.
Everyone understood that.
Most of the time, grieving relatives were present even though the remains went directly to the hearse. Those relatives awaited the arrival of the train with their dearly departed with the same anxiety as those who awaited their friends, relatives, or neighbours.
 

JennM

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naesco":19ka8don said:
Jenn I don't think the priority given to the deceased is funny at all.
It is a matter of tradition and respect. It was my experience as a baggageman for the CNR, priority was always given for the removal of a casket.
Everyone understood that.
Most of the time, grieving relatives were present even though the remains went directly to the hearse. Those relatives awaited the arrival of the train with their dearly departed with the same anxiety as those who awaited their friends, relatives, or neighbours.

Did I suggest that the care provided to human remains was anything less than dignified? NO. However I do find it ironic that I've had to wait upwards of an hour for a live shipment, when a deceased gets ushered through. I have never EVER seen anyone but a funeral home employee making a pick-up or a delivery. IMO it would be hurtful and inappropriate for someone to see their loved one transported in this way, no matter how carefully and dignified it is done.

Back to the topic at hand...

Jenn
 

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