naesco":2q4zt83e said:
Jenn, there are expert hobbyists specialized in difficult to keep species that add to the knowledge base. Read my posts on the USL. Nowhere have I suggested they be prohibited from bringing in fish.
So how did these hobbyists *become* "expert"? Not by being prevented from keeping species that somebody (you) deemed "unsuitable".
It is the tonnes of fish and coral that stocked in LFS, online firm holding tanks and wholesales that I object to.
Moorish Idol; Why do you not keep them for sale?
Do you order regularly cleaner wrasse, blue ring octopus, obligate butterflys, pinatus bats tetc. that have been suggested by others as USL fish?
Let me guess the answer to this one. No you don"t. Why? Because these fish have little hope of success in your tanks let alone your customers tank. Am I correct.
No I don't. HOWEVER, that is my *choice* based on simple economics. My customers are either not prepared to keep these, or I'm not. CHOICE is the operative word. If somebody comes into my shop who wants any of these and understands the challenges involved in keeping them, I can and will order them. I had a client with a 1200-gallon tank full of tangs, angels and butterflies, who kept a cleaner wrasse and other "tricky" species alive for over 6 years (the wrasse was over 6 years).
What about stuff like Panther Groupers? They're easy to keep - survive for years - I've got one in my 1000g that outgrew its previous keeper's tank, it's 18" long now and will double in size in its lifetime. Would that be be considered "unsuitable" because it will outgrow *most* hobbyists tanks?
Do you order regularly mature breeding angels or do you feel they should be left to breed in the oceans and help restock the reefs.? You will agree with me that these large fish are extremely difficult to acclimate and get to eat.
Where are you getting your info? In my experience it's harder to get tiny juveniles to eat for many species. Do Flame Angel adults qualify under this? Because if they do, then YES I do get mature angels in regularly. If you're talking about the greater angels that get huge, generally I don't get them in because they're expensive - but again, if somebody wants one, I'll surely order them one.
Do you order larval raised fish? Where do you get them? Do the pennies more you have to pay for them over cheap cyanide caught fish from Indonesia and the Philippinesreally really make any difference to you or your customers?
I order *some* tank raised fish - most are hatched in captivity (ie clowns, dottybacks, seahorses, cardinals). Where did you hear that they cost more? Oh wait - you don't buy them at wholesale so you really don't have a clue about wholesale pricing. If you factor in the lesser DOA/DAA with captive raised fish, even *if* they were more expensive, on the whole they'd be cheaper because there's hardly any mortality. Very few species are available -- but I do order some of the wild-caught counterparts occasionally - by request. Switching to *all* commercially hatched fish would kill the variety in the trade, and put a lot of fisherfolk out of work - it's not the "solution" you may think it is, but you don't necessarily see the big picture.
Jenn are you saying it is OK to remove impossible to keep fish because once they are removed they are dead anyway?.
I'm saying that neither YOU nor anybody should have the right to take away my choice, or the choice of hobbyists. Personally there are many species I opt not to bring in, because for my clients they'd likely be "rental items"... however I like my right to CHOOSE. I don't want you or anybody else meddling in my choices. That's what you don't seem to understand. Legislating the hell out of something isn't going to fix it, and may even make it worse. Don't fool yourself by thinking there won't be a "black market" for stuff you'd have prohibited.
Perhaps I've assimilated into more American ways of thinking, Wayne, but I like having the freedom of CHOICE. Honestly, if it were a choice between importing a variety of creatures, some easy, some not easy, and an over-harvest of strictly no-brainers, I'll take the former. If the trade was limited to only X number of species, and not all the rest, what do you suppose the pressure would be on those few species? Would you rather endanger yellow tangs or damsels because they're easy to keep, or keep the selection broader, and put less stress on those no-brainers? I don't think you can have it both ways.
I *choose* not to carry certain species. I can and will bring in exceptions for those who are up to the challenge - and who knows? Perhaps one of those advanced hobbyists might uncover the trick to help keep these creatures alive.
5 years ago I got flamed for keeping a Bubble Tip Anemone under power compact lighting - was told they are "impossible to keep", I was a clownfish murderer for leaving a family of clowns vulnerable in the wild (who's to say the clowns weren't collected too?!)... well 5 years later the anemone has reproduced and there are now 4 specimens in the tank, and doing fine, thanks. Had I and others listened to the nay-sayers at the time, nobody would be keeping these at all, let alone having them propagate in captivity. Many of my clients bring in clones from their anemones - I even have a clone myself in my store display. "Impossible"? Methinks not - we just had to figure out their lighting and feeding needs.
Who are you, Wayne, or anybody else, to decide who should be allowed to try to keep what?
FYI I have had a saltwater tank for at least 15 yrs.
And have you had success with every single creature you've ever purchased, and is everything still alive and well since you aquired it? If the answer is no, then you're part of the "problem" you seek to cure.
Sustainability is the answer, Wayne, but legislating the crap out of everything isn't going to create sustainability. That's the conclusion that you keep on drawing but the dots don't all match up.
Jenn
