naesco":v3uwlt8p said:
Industry knows specifically who is part of the cyanide cartel in the Philippines and Indonesia and which companies are importing from them.
IMO is is just a matter of time before the whistle is blown on them.
Actually, Wayne, you'd be surprised how many LFS owners and staff are ignorant of this issue. 20 years ago I was told by a *good* LFS that ordered carefully and conscientiously, that this problem was being addressed then - and I suppose it was to some extent, but the issue still exists today. Many hobbyists are also blissfully ignorant of this fact, even though the book I sell 4 copies of each week has a detailed chapter on the Cyanide issue. Each week I open somebody's eyes to it through conversations. The whistle *has* been blown a long time ago, but nobody appears to have heard it. Or at least very few have heard it.
If you find out from the LFS that the fish you bought were from the Philippines or Indonesia, the chances are that they were caught with cyanide as the use of cyanide in those two countries is rampant.
You also can't paint every wholesaler or exporter or importer with the same brush. There *are* cleanly caught fish out there, even from those areas. The supposed boycott of the PI and Indo that you keep pushing, would also put those net catchers out of business too. Is that your agenda?
It also depends on the species of fish and the wholesaler.
Indeed. Would you care to share your knowledge as to what's likely to be net-caught, and what isn't? Particularly from PI and Indo? And how about your experience with wholesalers in this regard? I'm sure many of us here can benefit from knowing what is OK and what isn't based on your direct experience in this regard.
There are excellent wholesalers who try their best to avoid these countries and known cyanide suppliers.
Yes, there are. Care to share who they are with us?
I have a question, Wayne... is it preferable to you for the industry to over-harvest a specie cleanly, so it's "suitable" for the trade (according to you), or to harvest *sustainably* (cleanly) a variety of fishes, some of which *you* deem unsuitable?
I don't believe there's any way to whitewash harmful collection techniques.
However, would it be more "ok" to harvest yellow tangs to the point of them being vulnerable in the wild, because they're a no-brainer that's caught cleanly, or harvesting a larger variety that includes some of the ones that *you* feel can't be kept?
Octopus and other cephlapods live a short lifespan - does that make them unsuitable to you? Or is it because they are venomous? If it's because they are venomous, then you'd better expand your list to include quite a number of snakes and reptiles too. Plenty of people keep creatures that are potentially dangerous. It's not my cup of tea, but if somebody chooses to keep something like that, and they're capable of providing for its needs, why should you or anybody else stop them? (There's that Canadian vs. American attitude again - Canadians need to be legislated to death and have the government coddle them, where Americans just want the government to stay the heck out of their business!)
While the blue ringed octopus is on your list, I didn't see stonefish on there... why not? Where do you draw the line? Lethal? Potentially lethal? Heck even some tangs can make you feel the burn if you're cut by them - gonna ban those too? What if somebody's tagged by something that should just "hurt" but they turn out to be allergic and die of anaphalactic shock because they didn't have their epi pen? Too many "what ifs"...
What about Zoanthids? I know you're talking about a "USL" for fish, but since we're talking about toxic and venomous things that you deem dangerous, how about the fact that Zoanthids are among the most toxic creatures out there? Their toxin is much more potent than that of the blue ring... although people are usually exposed to lesser concentrations of palytoxin than they are from a blue ring bite, hence lethal exposures are fewer and further between. I know quite a few people who have poisoned themselves handling zoanthids... and I haven't heard of anyone being tagged by a blue ring (at least not around here and not recently).
I don't carry Moorish Idol, but if somebody with a large reef tank wanted one, aware that they are a challenging creature, why shouldn't I be able to order them one?
What about Mandarins? They are "challenging" too, but provided a larger tank with well-established fauna, they thrive for years... but I didn't see those on your list, even though they die by the hundreds or even thousands at the hands of ignorant hobbyists. Should I not have been able to keep one for the past 3 years, because some dummies put them in a barren 10-gallon?
If "hobbyist ignorance" is a reason to ban many of these fish, then you may as well shut down the entire industry because the ignorant hobbyists far outnumber the educated ones. This is NOT a potshot at hobbyists - it's an unfortunate fact. And for anyone that doubts me on this, there's an open invitation to spend a day or three with me at my shop, fielding questions like, "Will this blue one (P. hepatus) go with my goldfish?" (A man asked that Saturday). Responsible LFS spend time educating people and encouraging them to educate themselves, but you can't make the horse drink the water. Even when I refuse to sell to them on the basis of inappropriateness of the tank they provide, or bad water quality or whatever, the most ignorant ones just go someplace else, or online, where people don't ask questions. Then they're back in to see me when they have big problems, because they *know* I care enough to help them fix them, even if they're embarrassed about their own ignorance - and half the time they aren't even ashamed of their own stupidity. It's a curse really, but it happens all the time. Wayne, I invited you to come and experience this for yourself a long time ago, but you've never taken me up on the invite. It still stands. Come on down and see for yourself.
And people here have blasted me for requesting a sample of people's tank water to test before I blindly bag up a fish :roll: Ask some people if they have freshwater or saltwater tank, and they aren't sure. Sometimes it's necessary to test just to find out. WalMart and PetsMart and PetCo generally don't ask before they bag up a fish, now do they?
Wayne, I know that somehow your heart is in the right place, but unless you have personally spent time in this trade, dealing with its issues firsthand, you really cannot presume to know its nuances.
Respectfully,
Jenn
One need not be a store owner, nor a wholesaler to know fish. I bet he spends nearly the same amount of time at his LFS tromping grounds then most employees of them :lol:
