Who needs wholesalers/LFS/etailers, let's do a group buy

[rudylbj]

As far as PAF and RM, it is well known despite his public denials that RM is Walt Smith's etail outlet for Fiji product and they also sell a few other items to make it appear to not be so directly connected. No problem there because he is no longer sole owner of PAF and RM does not undercut prices, although they do get a much higher percentage of cherries than anyone ordering from PAF will ever get, but that's just the way it goes. The confusion came when RM was at one time housed at PAF, they no longer are there.

Many wholesalers have there own etail outlets and while you could boycott them because in effect they are selling to your customers, think about who your boycott actually hurts---more likley you than them because once you cut them off as a supplier you no longer get the unique products that they have and every one has some things only they get. So, you wind up ringing your hands and grumbling while they count the cash from extra sales and are happy to empty a few more tanks. Let's face reality, it's a tough business, we deal in perishable stock and everyone has to move it in and move it out--Ok that's crude but it is after all the bottom line at some point, right. Wholesalers sell to retail stores and many will sell to whom ever has the cash, hobbyists included either through their front door or the back via their own web site under a different name or drop shipped for another etailer. That is just the way the business works and either you whine about it or get off your butt and do something unique to be profitable despite your perception of the injustices of the world.

I think we all are in this industry because it is in our blood, it is who we are, and along the way most of us are just making an average living by it. Despite our grumbling and ocassional cursing we wouldn't really trade it for anything else. Now, when you get someone like Race that likes to rub our noses in it and says he is doing it at a loss then you get a bit PO'd, since his actions can affect your bottomline at some point down the road.

 

[Raskal311]

The older gentlemen I see every time I’m at PAF who is always on his cell phone, would he be the cherry picker for RM? He seems to get a lot of the nice stuff put on hold for him.

 

[swsaltwater]

I keep business with PAF cause they have the best corals on 104th(as rudy said in some cases you got to bite the bullet) that I have found. though I spend a lot smaller amount then I would if RM did not get all the cherrys. Lupe is awesome but i wish he would get me a joker paly from time to time or some PPE. They seem to reserve them for RM, and larger shops. Keeping the larger shops happy I can see but you got to throw a bone to the smaller shops in smaller markets from time to time......

All is fair in business but as long as LFS's give business to those out to hurt them it will never change. I choose to speak with my money as a capitalist and support those that do it fairly. And yes their are those still out there doing it fairly for LFS's. SDC has questionable ties to TFO but I still feel they are fair. I wish their customer screening was better though. Oddly Quality has the best walk in screening of all the outfits I have seen. A login at the door etc......

I like the fact that some come in here to claim they have no connection to this or that, but on the web sites it is plain to see for all that there is. I would like to see proof to dispell the rumors, not claims from someone with a vested interest in keeping these assosiations secret. I have no vested interest in thinking Quality is DFS, SDC is TFO, or RM is PAF. I would like to be 100% sure with proof they are not so I can feel OK buying there.......

 

[Fish_dave]

The guy that you see on the phone all the time is a salesman for PAF. None of what he has held is for Reefer Maddness. All of the items in his section are being held for shipout to retail stores around the country. He tries hard to spread the cherries around to his customers.

Reefer Maddness does come in once or twice a week to pick items out of our tanks, they do not have anything held here for them. They pick out of the same items that are available to any walk in customer.

Dave

 

[swsaltwater]

Ok now I know who he mentioned. He is in the office mostly. Most of the cherrys I get are on walk in visits. Granted the cherrys I want are rare......Baribanki Acan, PPE, Blue Zoas, super red scolymias, etc......

 

[Race]

Rudy,

I agree with you; this is exactly why I am in this industry. If you really look at this close, it was noted a while back on this board that my retail prices on fish are not the lowest or even close. The reason I do not make money in LiveAquaria.com is because I am willing to pay "more than list price" to secure good livestock as well as rare species. I have never received a discount from any wholesaler or livestock distributor that was any different than offered to the general retail sector. I would be leary of any wholesaler that would do that.

If you dissect what I am saying, the fact that retail may be losing business to me, is not because I am undercutting them on price. It is simply a matter of changing consumer buying habits that has also affected other industries such as banking, travel, hotel accomodations, etc. I'm simply giving the customer what they want - another venue to order livestock. Unfortunately it takes a very high overhead and unprofitable business model to accomplish this.

I do this because I enjoy the industry and it will change with or without me. Remember Flying Fish Express and Pet Warehouse were shipping livestock through the mail four years prior to me entering the aquatics business. Petco has also recently entered this venue.

In regards to AMDA, if you read my recent RC posting, you will see that I am really for an AMDA that represents the entire livestock community. I am against an AMDA or any other organization that divides the industry and accuses other segments of killing more than their share of livestock. To me this lack of unity is clearly the beginning of the end of the hobby. We are already on thin ice.

Perhaps we should all take a deep breath and focus more on what we would like our industry to represent for the future. It should not be etail vs retail, wholesaler vs dropshipper, etc. I really think we are all part of the same industry.

Thanks,

Race

 

[Raskal311]

IC, thanks for clarifying. I do agree PAF does do a great job spreading the good stuff to all of the stores but they probably have more hobbyists shopping there then any of the other 104 boys. It never amazes me how often I get customers telling me they shop at the “LA stores”. Again, been there done that so I know how it works.

 

[JennM]

I think that happens everywhere. Several of my customers have boasted about having been to the Sun Pet. I guess they go with whatever store owner or maintenance guy they are buddy-buddy with at the time - because they can't buy without an account number. I don't take customers there, but a friend of mine has gone with me to help me get freshies - she doesn't even have a tank

Jenn

 

[rudylbj]

I don't belong to AMDA, nor any other industry org. so i do not know their policies. If they do not allow for everyone in this industry to be a member then they obviously can in no way represent the industry because they will not hear the voices of all the segments of the industry. Race, why use your valuable time and energy in a negative rant and fashion in trying to destroy the AMDA? Why not work toward building a new org that would in fact represent the entire industry in the political arena. You could be the founder and then have others in the industry as members of the BOD, etc. But, you would have to be a bit more diplomatic and not come on forums such as this saying things such as write me into your business plans, etc. Do you not see how that would get someone a bit PO'd? You may in fact be correct in thinking that, and that may in fact be the reality, but being a bit more diplomatic and not saying it as though you are rubbing it into our faces would really go a long way into others wanting to maybe join forces with you so that the industry would have a unified voice as far as political issues that could affect us all in the future. We can still be competitors, but can also work together to be sure we have an industry to compete in. If the next new Mr. Smith that goes to Wash. DC decides to shut down the importation of fish and or corals and by some fluke his bill becomes law then we will all be crying in the unemployment line together. Maybe there already is such an org and I am not aware so forgive me if that is so.

Oh, Race, if you are paying more than list for "the best stock" then you are being taken, IME. Just as you would be leary of a wholesaler that discounts, so also be leary of the one willing to charge you more for so- called better stock. Better stock can be had without having to pay extra. Maybe they do that to you because they know you are willing to pay and you are unknowing of the ways to get around it, aka "they see you coming".

 

[Raskal311]

It goes well beyond that at PAF. But this doesn’t affect me much since the customers I target aren’t the type that would go out of their way to shop at a wholesalers.

 

[Race]

Rudy,
I agree with you. If you read my RC AMDA post you would see that I did want to join AMDA simply as a dues-paying, participating member. It is tough to participate though, when they return your check along with a message that etailers are not welcome. Then they went on to form a coalition of retailers against etailers.

Again, I agree with your thoughts, but I do not know how to proceed. I have no desire to try to lead such an organization, but I would willingly offer financial support and my limited expertise in such a way as to make the hobby and industry better for everyone involved.

My plan is to not let AMDA resurface as an industry divider, but rather hope it reforms with all of our interests in mind.

Race

 

[Anonymous]

There is such a group in the works. I'm sure once they get ready to get off the ground, they'll be knocking on your door Race

BTW, the above was by far your best post on this subject. I understand more clearly now where your coming from. Thanks

 

[swsaltwater]

So whats wrong with a "coalition of retailers against etailers". Seems fair to fight back since you are not charging fair market price for livestock. Maybe a coalition of retailers could team up ands split tranships so we can match your prices and pay the rent....... Is that what you are against?

 

[Race]

Gresham,
I am aware of this organization and I am all for it. A seat from each representative area of the industry would be great.

Swsaltwater, On this very board it was mentioned that my livestock prices were not cheap and they are not. Like you, I am also a satisfied customer of PAF.

Thanks, Race

 

[RichardS]

So whats wrong with a "coalition of retailers against etailers".

Because it is naive to think that internet shopping is something you can fight against. It's a new world and consumers are going to take advantage of the choices offered to them. If Race can provide better service to my customers using the phone or email than I can standing in front of them, then he deserves their business. I would only have myself to blame.

 

[rudylbj]

A coalition of retailers fighting against etailers is like a coalition of buggy whip manufacturers fighting those dang new fangled automobiles.

 

[Race]

Perhaps we are heading in the right direction.
I would like to offer a perspective based on my early years of inexperience.
As I mentioned, today I purchase fish and corals from almost all, if not all of US Fish and Coral Suppliers and Wholesalers. No one supplier can do it all. I make it a point to never boycott one or burn bridges and the reason is because of the impending consolidation of Wholesalers/Importers. My competitor today, I may need as my supplier tomorrow. There are people right here on this board that I exchanged heated cyber words with last year, but I buy fish and coral from the company that he is affiliated with today. No grudges on my end. We need each other in order to serve the hobbyist with livestock.
My point is, if you want to boycott SDC, Quality Marine, ERI, PAF and the others, do not expect them to be there for you when your supplier gets lost in the consolidation. They will not be. I know that it is a two way street and therefore I have supported them all.

I think that it is best for the hobby and all of us within the industry to have strong Wholesalers/Importers-- without them we will have no fish or coral. I do not know who will survive the consolidations and therefore I am going to support them all. I am keeping my options open and you may want to as well.


Race

 

[dizzy]

Rudy,
I agree with you. If you read my RC AMDA post you would see that I did want to join AMDA simply as a dues-paying, participating member. It is tough to participate though, when they return your check along with a message that etailers are not welcome. Then they went on to form a coalition of retailers against etailers.
Race

Race,
Read the AMDA standards of practice. Members of AMDA were supposed to adhere to those standards. There is no way you could be dropshipping fish sight unseen and living up to the standards. I guess I'm one of the snakes you referred to and you can call me anything you like, but we didn't see fit to exempt you from the standards. I decided not to rejoin AMDA. BTW if your feelings got hurt my advice would be to get over it, as it really wasn't anything personal.
Mitch


Presented by the
American Marinelife Dealers Association

First Edition compiled and submitted by Rick Oellers
MACNA X Conference, Long Beach, CA
25 September 1998


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following are the standards that the American Marinelife Dealers Association members
pledge to abide by, in order to promote environmentally responsible marine aquarium keeping.

Techniques of captive husbandry to insure welfare of fish and habitat - Routine care of fish (applies to all establishments holding marine fish):

Records of mortalities should be maintained relating to particular batches where reasonably practical.
Animals shall at all times be kept in accommodations that are adequate in construction, size, amenities and position in the premises:
No fish should be exposed to excessive light or heat, or lack of adequate warmth.
No fish or other organism should be subject to rapid fluctuation in light, heat or chemical composition of their water, other than for the controlled treatment of disease or part of a controlled breeding program.
All holding systems should be sized so that visual inspections are easily carried out.
Holding systems are checked daily and cleaned as often as necessary to maintain good hygiene standards, consistent with the rate of stock turnover and consequent stocking densities.
Particular attention should be paid to removal of uneaten food and moralities, as both of these can release ammonia as they decay.
The filtration system, whether internal or external, should be maintained in efficient order. The performance of the filter should be checked by chemical analysis using commercially available test kits to meet water quality standards.
Fish and other aquatic organisms should be displayed in a manner which precludes interference by unauthorized people as far as is reasonably practical.
Food should be offered to fish on a regular basis, taking into account the water temperature and the biology of the species concerned. Food should be stored in impervious closed containers which can, when necessary and appropriate, be cleaned easily. Good hygiene, in this area will minimize the risk of insect or rodent infestation.
Stocking densities: it is virtually impossible to determine the quantity of fish to be kept in a system purely on a weight or number of fish per unit volume or area of water surface area. The variation in holding systems used quality of husbandry and types of fish stocked vary so greatly that it would render any such system to complicated to be useful. The maintenance of water quality standards can be used to determine working stocking densities.
Water quality should be assessed regularly and managed so that the following criteria can be maintained.
Dissolved oxygen:
Free ammonia (NH3):
Nitrite (NO2):
Nitrate (NO3):
PH: 6.9 mg/l min
0.01 mg/l max.
0.125 mg/l max.
40 mg/l absolute
8.1 min. Systems should be designed to maintain these criteria irrespective of stocking and husbandry functions.


Collectors

Specimens from the wild have been collected using legal, ethical techniques which do not damage the ecosystem.
The use of hand nets, barrier nets and tickler sticks, if expertly used are acceptable. Collectors should be able to demonstrate appropriate training and/or skill in these captive techniques. Training in the use of scuba, hook or other diving gear should be provided.
Illegal destructive fishing techniques include the use of sodium cyanide shall not be applied. Nor will AMDA collectors knowingly purchase specimens collected in an illegal manner for resale.
Verifiable "Chain of Custody." A record of fish bought and sold, except retail sale, including information on source and destination should be maintained. This may be in the form if invoices and orders. Techniques to provide a supply chain should include:
legal aspects of captive holding, transport and sale of fish
use of diving equipment
water quality: fish health handling, disease identification and remedies
advice on the biology and care of species sold
Marine specimens shown not to survive in captivity should not be caught, unless for research.
Importer/Carrier Responsibilities

Wholesalers and retailers importing directly (transshipped) should be able to demonstrate that they have taken steps to ensure that minimal guidelines are followed, as in the following:

Fish are packed so that they will survive 48 hours in transit, once accepted by the airlines (carrier)
The importer must accept primary responsibility for any consigned order, once it has been sent, in good faith, under all circumstances. Late arrival does not absolve the importer from this responsibility.
Make all efforts to expedite the shipment
Delays should be avoided
Packages should not be opened in transit unless survival of the fish is threatened
If they must be opened do so in dim light, with appropriate temperature, any top off water should be consistent with the packing water (test it first).
Importers will try to not purchase marine specimens shown to not survive in captivity, unless for research.
Wholesalers Responsibilities

Unpacking imported fish applies in various situations, any facility directly importing fish should be able to provide the appropriate conditions and staff to care for the fish as needed.

Unpack the shipment promptly on arrival.
Suitably trained or experienced staff should be available to unpack the new shipment.
Unpack in dim light conditions.
Acclimate to the physical and chemical water conditions on the holding facility using all practical means, with special attention to pH, temperature and ammonia (NH3).
Fish showing overt signs of distress, injury or disease should be treated as appropriate. These fish should not be sold, and should be removed from public view.
All reasonable precautions must be taken to prevent the outbreak and spread of disease, including disinfecting nets, using separate nets for different tanks, UV filtration, and/or tank isolation.
Record of disease outbreak, treatments and moralities should be kept, and related to particular batches when possible.
Packing materials should be disposed of hygienically or disinfected if being re-used.
Newly received fish should be held separate from previously held stock, clearly marked and rested for a minimum of 48 hours, or until normal behavior and feeding patterns return.
Routine care of fish: applies to all establishments holding fish.
Wholesalers will try to not purchase marine specimens shown to not survive in captivity, unless for research.
When possible, wholesalers will purchase tank raised (captive bred) fish and invertebrates, rather than purchasing wild caught specimens.
Fish should be transported by the quickest practical means, packed to survive at least 150% of the estimated travel time.
Retailers Responsibilities

Accept responsibility for any fish ordered, even if delayed. After hours contact should be made available.
Unpack fish promptly, in dim light, and acclimated as previously designed.
Hold new fish separately from currently "in stock" fish, clearly marked and rested 48 hours or until normal behavior and feeding resumes..
Dispose of used packing materials, properly or disinfect used materials if they are to be re-used.
Acclimate new fish to holding system water and feed with appropriate food prior to selling.
Regard to the physical and behavior needs of each fish.
Use all reasonable precautions to prevent disease outbreak and spread, including the above mentioned means.
Treat appropriately any fish showing signs of disease and/or distress.
Utilize antibiotics with the guidance of a veterinarian.
Assess the water quality on a regular basis.
Keep records of fish purchased.
Keep records of fish moralities.
Not offer marine specimens shown to not survive in captivity, unless for research.
Offer captive raised specimens (when available) rather than sell wild stock.
Make available the special dietary needs for the fish to the hobbyist (consumer) to purchase.
Have their unsupervised staff to take and pass the AMDA Knowledge Assessment Test in order to provide the information the consumer needs to maintain a healthy aquarium and to reach a standard of consistency within the hobby and industry.
Retail Sales

All fish should be in good health, i.e. eating and swimming normally and not be exhibiting external signs of disease. Before sale a careful visual examination of fish should be done, with any abnormalities noted and treated. Records should be kept.
Any specimen with obvious abnormality(s), which could affect its quality of life, should not be offered for sale.
Fish should be caught in a manner to reduce stress and avoid physical damage.
Ensure that the customer purchases fish suitable for the aquarium intended.
Enable the staff a full range of books to be available for reference and senior staff should be available for consultation to the staff and customer.
Customers should be informed of risks associated with venomous or harmful species, including first aid measures.
Regarding transportation of the fish by the customers:
The fish should be placed in appropriate containers (bags large enough for the fish to turn around) with sufficient oxygen, water and if necessary insulation to protect from temperature variations.
Instructions for proper acclimation for the fish upon arrival of it’s new home.
After sales advice and support should remain available to the customer.
The customer should be given accurate instructions for the care and welfare of the animal purchased.
Records of moralities should be kept to track trends in location, species and disease problems for future reference.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

American Marinelife Dealers Association
Copyright © 2002 All rights reserved
Last modification: 09 April 2001

 

[Race]

Mitch, My point is if AMDA is going to represent the livestock industry then it's name is O.K. If it is not, then it should be "The American Retail Livestock Association". In reality, I think that it's standards were developed before consumers started purchasing online in mass. It should simply adapt it's standards so that all who sell livestock can participate. It cannot and has not survived and now the industry has no representation at a time when we need it the most.

I also will state that although we spar in the business world, I have the utmost respect for you. I know that you are one of the best in the retail industry and I have never thought otherwise.

Race

 

[dizzy]

It cannot and has not survived and now the industry has no representation at a time when we need it the most.
Race

Race we got MAC and MAMTi. Who could ask for anything better than that?