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PeterIMA

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Jaime, What is the source of this data? And what are you trying to say? The only thing I can see in this is that it does not make a distinction between food fish and aquarium fish.

Peter
 

Kalkbreath

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So at least two people have been holding onto data.....for a very long time.
I want to write a paper using Jamie's data.
Like I said , which data is used and which is held back CAN effect the results.

What if Peter used Jamies data ten years ago?\


MAC may have never even been formed.
 
A

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PeterIMA":3r6l518b said:
Gresham, The MAC's grant money and the fees they charge for certification are more profitable than selling fish.

Peter

You can dance all you want, but your movements don't tell me you can dance ;)


Again, if MAC was selling fish themselves, you'd be all over them like a fly to dung.

Anytime a "researcher" gets into the business they're "researching", the "research" aspect lays fallow to the "business" at hand. How can you approach any wholesaler now, and ask to do studies there? You can't, your a competitor. Mise well call you Peter Pratt now.
 

PeterIMA

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Gresham, Actually, I am selling mostly to wholesalers. Its not your opinion that matters, its the quality of the fish that they receive.

Peter
 

Jaime Baquero

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PeterIMA":1bwdb6fp said:
Jaime, What is the source of this data? And what are you trying to say? The only thing I can see in this is that it does not make a distinction between food fish and aquarium fish.

Peter

What I want to say is that there has been a weak link in this whole issue. That weak link has been the CDT and its implementation/ law enforcement. If we take a look of this data, I got from IMA Philippines (long time ago), it shows that there were 92 positive readings for cyanide (7.21%) from 1276 samples (January - May 16 1996). Meaning that the sources of those samples should had gone to jail. There were or is a system to track the source of the samples, meaning the collector and or the exporter. How many people went to jail during that period of time? How many people went to jail during 2005 because CN was found in fish they were holding/selling?

What about the number of middlemen/women that are in jail? Those are the cyanide pushers in the PI. They go from village to village buying fish and selling cyanide to the collectors. They buy collected fish but if the collector buys his/her cyanide.

How many businesses and industries that import, sell and use sodium cyanide in the Philippines have been found guilty and convicted for selling cyanide to the wrong people?

You have the same data. You can make the distinction between food and aquarium fish.
To me is irrelevant if are food or aquarium fishes. They were collected with cyanide period.

In short, little is going to change if the answer to the questions is none or very few. [/b]
 

PeterIMA

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Jaime, I completely agree with you. The CDT data needed to be used more to support law enforcement in the Philippines. Actually, most of the data in the database was considered Monitoring Data because it was collected by IMA's MIS samplers and was not tied to criminal cases (that needed to be filed by law enforcement officials). Only data collected in the presence of law enforcement officials was used to support criminal cases. BFAR (a federal agency) did not have law enforcement officials and did very little with the test results reported to them by the CTD laboratories run by the IMA.

The number of prosecutions was way too low. The CTD data gathered could have supported a much higher number of cases filed. It is also true that no cases were filed against middlemen or Filipino export companies. Too much emphasis was put on prosecuting fishermen and MAF collectors and not enough on apprehending the exporters and the middlemen involved with distributing cyanide to the fishers.

Responsability for law enforcement devolved from the federal and provincial levels to the Local Government Units (LGUs) The LGU consists of the municipality and its associated barangays. A barangay is similar to what we call neighbourhood associations in the USA. The CDT needs to be applied with law enforcement at the LGU level to be effective in curbing cyanide fishing.

Peter Rubec
 

PeterIMA

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Jaime, Some additional comments.
In addition to the laws against cyanide fishing there are also laws and Fisheries Administrative Orders (FAO) that are intended to prevent the sale of cyanide compounds (lke sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide) to fishers. Still, when I visited the Philippines last November I was told it is still possible to buy cyanide from chemical supply companies like Naeco Chemicals. I was told fishers/collectors can still go to these stores and buy cyanide. Steve Robinson first named Naeco Chemicals as a source of cyanide in the Philippines in his articles in FAMA published in 1984.

Peter
 

clarionreef

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...and since named primary...big named Manila exporters as the source.
As they became focused upon they shifted the burden and the risk onto their middlemen...contenting themselves to be just financiers of the middlemens purchases.
There were years of "secret" wharehouses in Binondo...[ North of the Pasig river that bisects Manila] where everyone went ot buy the stuff.
Steve
PS...
But, since the MAC era, the exporters have escaped the spotlight. Thats why they tolerate...not co-operate...but tolerate MAC.

Things getting clearer?
 

clarionreef

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Jaime,
The MAC country co-ordinator from 2000 to last year was the right hand man and career long confidant of the Director of Fisheries.
Thats why he got the job.
He resigned because he wouldn't pressure the boss to make certification a prerequisite for securing an export permit.
He stayed the hand of the boss allowing MAC to work their will for too long in the illusion of the mission statements paying off and for the expected consumer/certification revolution in the West.
It never came to pass and they never trained a fish supply even if it would have.
They bought time for the exporters, gave them a free pass for a paltry signing of a letter of commitment [ a joke] and played the flute while reefs burned.
The entire MAC staff is disgruntled and many will talk after hours.
Why not pm a few? I do.
Steve
 

clarionreef

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Would you like to know what else he did?
drum roll please... 8O ... ... ... .... ... ... [ three dots followed by interruption indicate drum roll cadence]

He kept coral farming and clam farming for export from happening as well as it was to be reserved for the certified ones as a reward for their fealty.
Now...the reward-project is lost...and director Sarmiento is denied his little legacy of reform.
In this strategy...how much good was denied there??
This drama is so much deeper then ever appears here....and it has been dangerous to allow it to appear here.
Now...as people in previously delicate positions move on to other things, it can come out.
Steve
 
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PeterIMA":cy6k4bex said:
Gresham, Actually, I am selling mostly to wholesalers. Its not your opinion that matters, its the quality of the fish that they receive.

Peter

To be fair, I do think that this should always be the bottom line once sustainability is proven.

Peace,

Chip
 
A

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PeterIMA":2i3r72a0 said:
Gresham, Actually, I am selling mostly to wholesalers. Its not your opinion that matters, its the quality of the fish that they receive.

Peter
Mostly doesn't include a person that starts with a J and one that starts with a B. Nether are wholesalers ;) The question is, did they buy more then once ;) That proves quality. Actually, them coming back, even if your prices are high, means you've got quality.

Are your LFS customers happy with the quality? Should we ask them to post their experiences? Wanna open that box?
 

JT

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GreshamH":20mtcz3u said:
Are your LFS customers happy with the quality? Should we ask them to post their experiences? Wanna open that box?
Well, you either got your info from Steve or Burton so seeing as the cat is now out of the bag, I will add my experiences. For the record, in the past four years the store has been in business, we have never, knowingly, ordered PI fish and would never have considered doing so. But, with this said, we have bought from one or two suppliers on a couple of occassions over the years where the origin of the fish wasn't specified on stocklist but known unsuitable species were avoided. However, I first met Ferdie four years ago when I visited a MAC facility in Manila for my own inspections prior to buying from them and liked his collection methods. When Peter informed us that Ferdie was now exporting his own fish, I decided to give him a try and wanted to take part in this study as a retailer.

We have so far received four shipments from Ferdie and couldn't be more pleased with the quality and variety. Additionally, I am able to keep my tanks filled on a regular basis because of the cost savings vs. ordering from LA. Our customers have noticed the difference in quality and variety as well, not to mention the effect that happens in their mind when they see more fish in the tanks. Prior to this, our buying was mostly centered around species from Hawaii, Fiji, Tonga, and Solomons. We still buy the same amount from these areas and now have additional variety.

We hold fish for five days after arrival before releasing them for sale and, so far, have seen less DAA mortality than typical shipments coming from LAX wholesalers. We had 2% DOA on our first two orders but slightly higher on the third and fourth but these were due to logistical problems.

On the third order, customs held up the shipment an extra long time in LAX. After about 50 hours or so in the box, we had Oscar at LAO tank the fish at his facility over the weekend but were pleased to find that the DOA numbers were not near as bad as we had feared. Even Oscar was impressed with the condition of the fish as he was tanking them. If I had ESP powers and could have seen the condition of the fish before Oscar unpacked them, I would have just had him forward the boxes directly on to me rather than tank them.

After the third order, I decided to no longer clear in LAX and I am now bringing direct into ATL. Our fourth shipment arrived with the highest DOA mortality yet, around 15%, and this, again, was due to delayed flights and much longer time in the bag than would normally be the case. The fish came into the US the same day last week that the UK terror threat was announced and, I suspect, it caused some flight delay issues into ATL. However, had I not ordered 150 Green Chromis and 20 Green Coris, my DOA's on this shipment would have been down around 2%. Green Chromis, as we all know, don't like being in the bag very long.

My order sizes, on average, are 8 boxes in size (about 300 fish) and, no, I don't normally order 150 chromis at once. One the third order, I didn't order chromis, nor do I ever order damsels. My order last week was 400 fish and 10 inverts.

I have no complaints. The only thing I had a real issue with was flukes on angel fish on the first order but I was able to clean this up in quarentine. After telling Ferdie about the problem, I have not seen the problem on any other orders.

Do I like Ferdie's fish? Yes, absolutely. Will I continue to buy from him? Definitely. However, I still buy from LA on a regular basis as I cannot, nor can anyone, get everything from one supplier. I still need inverts, corals, and fish from Fiji, Tonga, and Jakarta, and other areas.
 

Jaime Baquero

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cortez marine":1ni3zx83 said:
Jaime,
The MAC country co-ordinator from 2000 to last year was the right hand man and career long confidant of the Director of Fisheries.
Thats why he got the job.
He resigned because he wouldn't pressure the boss to make certification a prerequisite for securing an export permit.
He stayed the hand of the boss allowing MAC to work their will for too long in the illusion of the mission statements paying off and for the expected consumer/certification revolution in the West.
It never came to pass and they never trained a fish supply even if it would have.
They bought time for the exporters, gave them a free pass for a paltry signing of a letter of commitment [ a joke] and played the flute while reefs burned.
The entire MAC staff is disgruntled and many will talk after hours.
Why not pm a few? I do.
Steve

One thing for sure is that the situation in the Philippines regarding the cyanide issue has been a mess since the beginning. Poverty, corruption, lack of education to community level and else make of this country a very difficult place to work in. Many things happened during the IMA, OVI-Haribon years. Some good results were achieved but not enough considering the time and money spent.

As I have said before the Filipino central government is responsible for what is happening.

The Director of fisheries and his right hand (A.A) know about the problem before MAC got overthere. As a matter of fact A.A was working for IMA Philippines and knew very well the situation. If those two Filipino with the "power" to do something to protect their natural resources and help coastal communities do nothing....who else? The Director of fisheries with the assistance of filipino researchers should be the ones regulating and managing this fisheries.
 

clarionreef

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Jaime,
We knew they were corrupt.
Thats why we had a job to do.
If there were no corruption, injustice and unfairness here would never have been a cyanide trade to deal with in the first place.
The idea was to spark a revolt from the ground up and get the fisherman to change for their own reasons regardless of the people in business and government.
When we made the fisherman the centerpiece of the issue in the 80's we got more mileage out of it then when it got hijacked by the urban dwelling people who had little idea what to do....except control and spend money.
The fisherfolk can be the centerpiece again and change can occur without engineering a gravy train for richer people.
Steve
 

Jaime Baquero

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Fisherfolks are still the centerpiece. Seems to me that is not transparent when someone working with and NGO makes money by " helping to market fishcollectors products". One thing is to get contacts and really help to market the fish, without getting any compensation for it. It is even worse when the individual gets a grant, trains collectors, buys their fishes to finally export them making a profit at the expense of the collectors. By reading some of the previous posts one could think that something like that is happening. I hope that no one of the 'protagonist' of this saga is involved.
 

naesco

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Hi Jaime
You posted the cyanide test results here.
Are the names of the 'tested parties' that had possession of the cyanide tested fish available?

Do you know where these tested fish were to be sent to?

Thanks

Wayne
 

dizzy

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Jaime Baquero":3bfum8mv said:
Fisherfolks are still the centerpiece. Seems to me that is not transparent when someone working with and NGO makes money by " helping to market fishcollectors products". One thing is to get contacts and really help to market the fish, without getting any compensation for it. It is even worse when the individual gets a grant, trains collectors, buys their fishes to finally export them making a profit at the expense of the collectors. By reading some of the previous posts one could think that something like that is happening. I hope that no one of the 'protagonist' of this saga is involved.

Wow,
I thought I had seen everything, but now this. A MAC supporter worried about a group not being transparent and concerned they have mis-spent grant money. 8O I'm truly dumfounded
 
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