Twilight Aquatics
- Thread starter kevin b
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clarionreef
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Gentleman,
This is perhaps too obvious to point out but the Hawaiian producer of the fish is the source and the Retailer in Texas has to buy it, incur infrastructure and risk and then move it to the public.
The only thing thats odd is why the guys at Twilight would want to cheapen the public price perception of a deepwater fish that can kill you while you go after it. Once they lowball it to the public...the new benchmark is set and the fish is much harder to move thru the system.
Lobsters are cheap off the beach in Mexico as well....then those restaurant prices in LA...my goodness! But no one would find that odd.
Steve
This is perhaps too obvious to point out but the Hawaiian producer of the fish is the source and the Retailer in Texas has to buy it, incur infrastructure and risk and then move it to the public.
The only thing thats odd is why the guys at Twilight would want to cheapen the public price perception of a deepwater fish that can kill you while you go after it. Once they lowball it to the public...the new benchmark is set and the fish is much harder to move thru the system.
Lobsters are cheap off the beach in Mexico as well....then those restaurant prices in LA...my goodness! But no one would find that odd.
Steve
I don't know Brian's motives but I can see what you're getting at. All I know is this: Twilight sells fish cheaply and the healthiest I have ever seen fish anywhere. As a consumer, it's a mighty convincing reason to buy.
IMHO, Marine Center's fish are sold at too over-inflated a price tag. I know the common defense is they sell high quality fish due to their careful custody; I've bought many times from them before. However, Twilight's fish are MUCH MUCH healthier upon arrival. This is a huge selling point for someone like me buying $$$$ fish.
IMHO, Marine Center's fish are sold at too over-inflated a price tag. I know the common defense is they sell high quality fish due to their careful custody; I've bought many times from them before. However, Twilight's fish are MUCH MUCH healthier upon arrival. This is a huge selling point for someone like me buying $$$$ fish.
I agree with you Len. The bottom line is this, the hobbiest is looking for healthy, inexpensive livestock/products, and well if store A sells it for $100 and store B sells it for $200 and they are both healthy... Hmmm.... Someone do the math for me.... :roll:
Yes I know about the eco system and why we have wholesalers and the whole chain of organization. But to the average person, do you honestly think they care? I think the quality and price speaks for itself. Its just reality.
Yes I know about the eco system and why we have wholesalers and the whole chain of organization. But to the average person, do you honestly think they care? I think the quality and price speaks for itself. Its just reality.
clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
Well guys,
Thankyou for enunciating the core philosophy of Walmart....
I think McDonalds also has a similar corporate philosophy on their brochures next to the catsup and pickle relish.
Consumers will of course play ball with a low baller if he will lay down for them and deal with them. I could sell to the public in the parking lot I guess for some quick cash but it just wouldn't be cricket would it?
Then again...there are wholesalers who sell to their customers customers often...and hope they don't find out. Still doesn't make it right and they do risk ostracism from their own brotherhood.
I am somehow restrained by that which makes us walk upright....
Working against the dealers and selling out the back door cheap is a very Hawaiian and Florida keys thing.
Steve
wholesale ...extremely
Pssssstt...wants some xxl lg male scotts fairy wrasses or ventralis....cheap??? 8)
Thankyou for enunciating the core philosophy of Walmart....
I think McDonalds also has a similar corporate philosophy on their brochures next to the catsup and pickle relish.
Consumers will of course play ball with a low baller if he will lay down for them and deal with them. I could sell to the public in the parking lot I guess for some quick cash but it just wouldn't be cricket would it?
Then again...there are wholesalers who sell to their customers customers often...and hope they don't find out. Still doesn't make it right and they do risk ostracism from their own brotherhood.
I am somehow restrained by that which makes us walk upright....
Working against the dealers and selling out the back door cheap is a very Hawaiian and Florida keys thing.
Steve
wholesale ...extremely
Pssssstt...wants some xxl lg male scotts fairy wrasses or ventralis....cheap??? 8)
clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
Thanks Gresham...
but I see he role as more of a good mother.
I remember in the Philippines; once a mother had 3 eggs and 5 children to feed at breakfast.
She cut the eggs up into 5 portions and the portions were in proportion to each childs size.
Selling everything to the first cherry-picker w/ the most nerve in the door first means that the other 4 kids get nothing to eat at all.
No mother could do such a thing.
Its not so much as anti-cherrypicker but pro customer, pro dealer, pro supporter, pro out of towner and pro all the childred....not just the bigger one who comes to the table first.
The cherrypicker may feel special, entitled and proprietary about the supply before him but thats because of his intense focus on himself to the exclusion of all other concern.
Those of us who care about the other 95% of the customer base are sometimes ridiculed for this higher, fairer thinking.
All the cherries get sold of course. What could be easier then selling the hottest, coolest stuff around? But doesn't it make more sense to make 5 customers happy rather then one ungrateful one?
A baby can choose redder red, bluer blue and oranger orange. Suely the professional cherrypicker has more talent then that.
Ya know what it is?
He gets up earlier then the rest. [ so do babies...and fisherman]
Steve
but I see he role as more of a good mother.
I remember in the Philippines; once a mother had 3 eggs and 5 children to feed at breakfast.
She cut the eggs up into 5 portions and the portions were in proportion to each childs size.
Selling everything to the first cherry-picker w/ the most nerve in the door first means that the other 4 kids get nothing to eat at all.
No mother could do such a thing.
Its not so much as anti-cherrypicker but pro customer, pro dealer, pro supporter, pro out of towner and pro all the childred....not just the bigger one who comes to the table first.
The cherrypicker may feel special, entitled and proprietary about the supply before him but thats because of his intense focus on himself to the exclusion of all other concern.
Those of us who care about the other 95% of the customer base are sometimes ridiculed for this higher, fairer thinking.
All the cherries get sold of course. What could be easier then selling the hottest, coolest stuff around? But doesn't it make more sense to make 5 customers happy rather then one ungrateful one?
A baby can choose redder red, bluer blue and oranger orange. Suely the professional cherrypicker has more talent then that.
Ya know what it is?
He gets up earlier then the rest. [ so do babies...and fisherman]
Steve
Okay, let's wax academic 
Walmart is generally criticized for the way they treat their employees, their health care policies (or lack thereof which isn't paid for by taxpayer medicare), discrimination by woman (usually discrimintation within) and minorities, their lack of environmental consciousness, and their severe impact on local small economies. I'm not convinced Twilight is guilty of any of these
We may argue Twilight's direct selling hurts the hobby - same as brick and mortars lobby the same argument against mail order vendors. I've heard arguments from both sides and no supporting evidence from either. I only see one unifying factor: people defending practices that improve their own bottom line.
There are many market paradigms. The status quo is best for those profiting the most from it.
If Indonesians, Fijians, Australians, et al had the accessibility and logistics to readily market their goods stateside directly to the consumer, I'm confident the issue wouldn't be confined to Hawaiians and Floridians. You may successfully argue that a middleman is buerocratic waste for specialized Hawaiian and Floridan collectors - particularly for those that prefer to deal in low volume, high(er) profit.
Walmart is generally criticized for the way they treat their employees, their health care policies (or lack thereof which isn't paid for by taxpayer medicare), discrimination by woman (usually discrimintation within) and minorities, their lack of environmental consciousness, and their severe impact on local small economies. I'm not convinced Twilight is guilty of any of these
We may argue Twilight's direct selling hurts the hobby - same as brick and mortars lobby the same argument against mail order vendors. I've heard arguments from both sides and no supporting evidence from either. I only see one unifying factor: people defending practices that improve their own bottom line.
There are many market paradigms. The status quo is best for those profiting the most from it.
If Indonesians, Fijians, Australians, et al had the accessibility and logistics to readily market their goods stateside directly to the consumer, I'm confident the issue wouldn't be confined to Hawaiians and Floridians. You may successfully argue that a middleman is buerocratic waste for specialized Hawaiian and Floridan collectors - particularly for those that prefer to deal in low volume, high(er) profit.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
"If Indonesians, Fijians, Australians, et al had the accessibility and logistics to readily market their goods stateside directly to the consumer, I'm confident the issue wouldn't be confined to Hawaiians and Floridians."
Uh uh,
Only in domestic commerce can you ship tiny, picky orders.
Exporting requires a much larger economy of scale by definition.
Customs and wildlife clearance alone can total several hundred dollars per shipment.
Frieght cost a lot if not exceeding 300 kilos...500 or 1,000.
Taking the risk in all this is what importers do, not hobbyists who look for more sure things without supporting the mass of product that enables their luxury to pick and choose a few items.
The fact is...giving it away Walmart-cheap is a domestic affair and only ruins Hawaiian and Florida fish values for the most part.
My reference to Walmart had to do with the great reliance on cheap Chinese products as a basis of product to then compete with the rest of America.
They have put 1,000's out of business but the customer is of course happy as he is not expected to reason why...his is a simpler mission...to buy, buy, buy.
Steve
Uh uh,
Only in domestic commerce can you ship tiny, picky orders.
Exporting requires a much larger economy of scale by definition.
Customs and wildlife clearance alone can total several hundred dollars per shipment.
Frieght cost a lot if not exceeding 300 kilos...500 or 1,000.
Taking the risk in all this is what importers do, not hobbyists who look for more sure things without supporting the mass of product that enables their luxury to pick and choose a few items.
The fact is...giving it away Walmart-cheap is a domestic affair and only ruins Hawaiian and Florida fish values for the most part.
My reference to Walmart had to do with the great reliance on cheap Chinese products as a basis of product to then compete with the rest of America.
They have put 1,000's out of business but the customer is of course happy as he is not expected to reason why...his is a simpler mission...to buy, buy, buy.
Steve
Regardless of all these points, Twilight does not have the selection to make any dent in The Marine Center's bottom-line. I have not purchased from Twilight (yet), but the experiences of Len and Nico (NKT) are very high praise. I have purchased from The Marine Center a few times, and product & customer service were top-notch there.
I see no problem in buying the few species Twilight offers due to the drastic difference in price. If TMC wants to compete on those species, then lower the price or get out of the way.
Peace,
Chip
I see no problem in buying the few species Twilight offers due to the drastic difference in price. If TMC wants to compete on those species, then lower the price or get out of the way.
Peace,
Chip
cortez marine":1luyx9nw said:
Heaven forbid people actually knew what wholesale prices really were or there would be an uproar. My LFS could buy a male Wantanibi angel for $75 from Quality Marine in LA. Even if we doubled the price to cover shipping and make a profit it would still fall short from the Marine Center by $200! We were able to support the buisness and go lower than everyone That includes covering any loss of livestock. Besides, if you run it right and buy from quality collectors few fish have to die and this increases your profit and your ability to lower prices. Power to the collectors for being able to sell direct to customers. They are making more by doing that then they EVER could selling to a wholesaler because if my employer could buy a Wantanibi angel for $75 think how much the collectors are getting? Not a whole lot for "risking their lives." I wish ALL collectors could ship direct because it would help the poor nations shift from logging and stripping other resources from their lands to this sustainable source of income that could be so comparitively profitable.
cortez marine":302cum5f said:
This is precisely my point. If Indonesians (for example) didn't have to go through so much red tape to get their goods to the end user, you'd see them sell directly more often. Hawaiians and Floridians have this option and some choose to take advantage of their position. I fail to see what is wrong with this business model.
My purchases with Twilight is not mutually exlusive of my support for the mass of other products. I can do both. And as a hobbyist, I am willing and fully aware of the risk in buying directly from the collector. But the truth of the matter is, Twilight offers higher quality fish and better customer service at better prices then the vast majority of wholesalers and retailers out there. Ask Nico how well his DOA was handled.
I very much doubt that a small, single collector (or a handful of them) can replicate the kind of effect you are describing. Brian sells speciality high-end goods. The flame wrasse is probably his most bread-and-butter product. Does a single collector's cheaper asking price for Rhomboid wrasses really have any significant impact on your bottom line?
You're using Walmart as an example because you know the negative social conations people associate with that company. Twilight's business practices and their scale of business are not analogous. Many economists argue that the overall economic impact of Walmart is positive to economies. Walmart certain erodes old-fashioned community values and establishments, but from purely an economic perspective, it's very much a debatable issue.
I must say I am confused about what is so rockbottom/walmartesque about his prices? The $1000 C. earlei? The $1350 goldenback trigger? Thee $3000 Dr. Seuss fish? The $125 multicolor? Seems to me that the vast majority of Brian's prices are on par with what I have seen locally (and YES, I have seen all of these fish at one LFS (except for the Dr. Seuss fish) at one time or another).
I with Len, I don't know Brian's motivations but I have been very pleased with what I have gotten from him. I think this is just a side business for him while he is doing doctoral work.
And you know what, he is the one with the expensive rebreather who does ALL of the hard work, and takes on all of the personal risk so why shouldn't he reap most of the profit? Who makes the most in the "standard model" collector-exporter-wholesaler-store distribution process anyway? I know its not the collector. And to me, the guy who actually produces the product making the least is more on par with the Walmart business model than what Brian is doing. He is a specialty collector selling to a specialty hobbiest. Leave him alone.
john
I with Len, I don't know Brian's motivations but I have been very pleased with what I have gotten from him. I think this is just a side business for him while he is doing doctoral work.
And you know what, he is the one with the expensive rebreather who does ALL of the hard work, and takes on all of the personal risk so why shouldn't he reap most of the profit? Who makes the most in the "standard model" collector-exporter-wholesaler-store distribution process anyway? I know its not the collector. And to me, the guy who actually produces the product making the least is more on par with the Walmart business model than what Brian is doing. He is a specialty collector selling to a specialty hobbiest. Leave him alone.
john
I see no problem with what Brian is doing either. He's not offerring ultra cheap bread and butter group buy junk. his stuff is high end, and comes with a price tag that proves it. Have you EVER see any of these on you stocklists Steve, and have ANY past thru ASAP's doors? He's not some yahoo selling FLA fish for next to nothing.
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