If you believe in your livestock, why not guarantee it ?

[Anonymous]

Eric, you can PM if you'd like...I'd like to know what good points you made.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Race]

Edited.

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. Foster
I looked at your fish availability and see you offer Moorish Idol.
I have to say that I was very impressed that you have advised prospective purchasers that they are a expert only fish and the reason why.

Wayne Ryan

Now I'm confused. After following your posts for all these years I gotta admit I am shocked to see that when someone stocks a species widely known not to do well in captivity except under rare circumstances, all they have to do to pacify you is say "expert only". "Sure, it's ok to bring them in from the wild because you warned them!!" By your very vocal stance on things it just doesn't make sense to me.

Wouldn't it be better if they weren't stocked at all and left in the wild where at least they have a shot? Isn't that much more admirable than collecting them in the first place when you can be pretty certain what their future holds? Afterall, just because you put expert only under their care information it doesn't keep joe schmoe from snapping up a half dozen because "they shure r purdy".

Yes I know they and other species with little chance of survival in captivity by the masses will continue to be collected until long after I am gone. But they don't have to be collected for me and I won't help moving them.

If education is the only thing you were throwing your kudos at then you'd think a page could be setup educated customers without actually offering any for sale.

 

[naesco]

Dr. Foster
I looked at your fish availability and see you offer Moorish Idol.
I have to say that I was very impressed that you have advised prospective purchasers that they are a expert only fish and the reason why.

Wayne Ryan

Now I'm confused. After following your posts for all these years I gotta admit I am shocked to see that when someone stocks a species widely known not to do well in captivity except under rare circumstances, all they have to do to pacify you is say "expert only". "Sure, it's ok to bring them in from the wild because you warned them!!" By your very vocal stance on things it just doesn't make sense to me.

Wouldn't it be better if they weren't stocked at all and left in the wild where at least they have a shot? Isn't that much more admirable than collecting them in the first place when you can be pretty certain what their future holds? Afterall, just because you put expert only under their care information it doesn't keep joe schmoe from snapping up a half dozen because "they shure r purdy".

Yes I know they and other species with little chance of survival in captivity by the masses will continue to be collected until long after I am gone. But they don't have to be collected for me and I won't help moving them.

If education is the only thing you were throwing your kudos at then you'd think a page could be setup educated customers without actually offering any for sale.

Don't be confused.
Whenever I see industry take small steps I am encourged and perhaps if these small steps are acknowledged by everyone they would be encouraged to do more.
I am encouraged by what Race and Eric have done.
I hope you read my post to Race. If he took that advice it would be closer to avoiding the problem with anxious reefers.
I would rather see Eric carry a couple of dendros and have him take a few minutes and determine what other difficult species he should cut back on and not promote.

I am encouraged by what I see Steve and Dr. Rubec doing. Undoubtedly there will be those criticize the manner or means but the good effort is there and should be acknowledged by everyone.

Sadly this is all taking far too long.
Your industry needs an organization that can promote a good industry and make the necessary changes to preserve the reefs and our hobby.
Are there any takers?
Wayne Ryan

 

[Race]

Hi Wayne,
Your post is a bit off topic as this thread is about " The Guarantee ". I would contact Kevin Kohen directly with this question. I know he sells a few, mainly to public aquariums.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't be confused.
Whenever I see industry take small steps I am encourged and perhaps if these small steps are acknowledged by everyone they would be encouraged to do more.
I am encouraged by what Race and Eric have done.
I hope you read my post to Race. If he took that advice it would be closer to avoiding the problem with anxious reefers.
I would rather see Eric carry a couple of dendros and have him take a few minutes and determine what other difficult species he should cut back on and not promote.

I am encouraged by what I see Steve and Dr. Rubec doing. Undoubtedly there will be those criticize the manner or means but the good effort is there and should be acknowledged by everyone.

Sadly this is all taking far too long.
Your industry needs an organization that can promote a good industry and make the necessary changes to preserve the reefs and our hobby.
Are there any takers?
Wayne Ryan

LOL you didn't answer my question. So it wouldn't be more admirable to educate the consumer by making the information available while not creating a demand for these proven difficult species at the same time? Seems like it would be a no brainer to me.

While it may go one step further than some places, just because I explain that they are difficult doesn't ethically excuse me for creating a demand. Just IMO I guess but like I said before, from your past posting history I am surprised you're not all over this.

 

[KKohen]

JP,
Education is the foundation of Drs. Foster and Smith, and drives our business. Encouraging customers to make an ethical decisions based on the information we provide is what we strive to do.

I am providing my opinion here so that you can try and better understand my point of view. I try and look at the big picture when it comes to the selection of fish we offer. Zanclus cornutus (Moorish Idol) are very abundant in Hawaii, Tahiti and Fiji in the South Pacific. The fish that we offer from these regions are collected and handled properly, and actually have a very good track record for us, or I would not offer them to anyone. These are the only locations around the world where we choose to purchase these fish from, and the limited collection of this species due to the relatively low demand in the marketplace makes them a very sustainable fishery. I can not say the same for these fish originating from the Indo Pacific or Indian Ocean, as we do not purchase this species from these regions. In my opinion the location of collection, handling and transport play is critical in the long term survival of this species, when the fish is finally maintained by the very experienced aquarist or biologist who provides this animal with the proper environment, and proper diet.

If moving forward we all had the narrow minded approach to some of the more challenging animals that are in no way threatened or pressured from overfishing, the advancements and knowledge gained by both the scientific community and the hobby itself over the years would cease. This would be detrimental to the understanding and long term survival of these species in the wild from our ignorance and lack of understanding. Just think if we all said back in the early 90’s that it is impossible to maintain reef building stony corals (Acropora spp., Montipora spp, etc), and they were banned or put on a "List" where would coral farming, reef restoration, and the hobby be today? I value the advancements we have made together, and wish to keep moving forward in a positive and sustainable way.

I do not wish to debate this topic but wanted to provide you with my opinion. Thank you.

Regards,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith

 

[dizzy]

For the record I agree with Kevin's logic completely on selling Moorish Idols and other "difficult" species. Provided they are collected in a sustainable manner and sold with the proper warnings, they should be allowed to be sold to people willing to accept the challenges of keeping them. Hopefully these people will share their success/failures with the people who are not risk takers by nature.
Mitch

 

[Kalkbreath]

Has anyone else with "a real and long guarantee" found livestock sales remaining strong, despite the economy? I have been pleasantly surprised and am crediting "the 14 day guarantee" for playing a major role in our good sales volume to date in 2008. Wise and safe spending concept for the consumer.

If you are not applying a real and honest guarantee to your livestock, now is the time to reconsider. Drive quality right up the line to improve the industry's livestock choices and handling, at all levels. Great for the hobby and public perception.

Hobbyist, never purchase livestock without a two week guarantee. Spend your money wisely and help improve the hobby by demanding excellence in customer service.

"Customers , don't settle for anything less then a 60 day livestock guarantee.
The longer the guarantee, the better product." its that simple.

 

[bookfish]

C'mon now. A 60 day guarantee on SW MO's going into unknown conditions? I suppose if all one sells is anthelia and damsels perhaps...

 

[PeterIMA]

Mitch,
Moorish Idols that are net-caught are not difficult to keep alive. People
should be allowed to buy them.

Peter

 

[Jaime Baquero]

8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

Peter, now you are talking as a business person. I prefer Peter the researcher.

Jaime

 

[Kalkbreath]

C'mon now. A 60 day guarantee on SW MO's going into unknown conditions? I suppose if all one sells is anthelia and damsels perhaps...

Well , It's my interpretation that an unconditional livestock guarantee makes the fish a "better fish" , but that it it does not really make for a better hobbyists.
(A product is only as good as the person using it, no matter how great the product)

But which is more important?

Creating a system which spawns a network of more able hobbyists or a system of importation and handling which yields less stress on the livestock before its sold to the consumer?

If extending a guarantee from the typical 24 or 48 hour LFS stint to a 14 day gig...somehow makes for a better product, why would this logic abruptly end at 336 hours

Does the hobbyists care and husbandry level change at this point in time or is it some time sensitive inherent issue within the fish itself?

Perhaps the caretakers abilities/inabilities might at this point begin to overshadow the fish's improved production status?

Reminds me of something I once heard:


"Give a customer a fish and they will have fish for two weeks."

"teach a customer to fish ..... and they will have fishy for much longer"

I bet when someone truly comes up with a better fish store, they will have so much faith in not only their product preparations but even more importantly the way in which they have prepared the customer to care for livestock!

A 60 day guarantee would reflect such an monumental accomplishment.

 

[Race]

Edited

 

[JeremyR]

Do you think posting incessantly about how much stuff costs you or how much money you have or how much money you do in business a year makes people like you more, or makes you a better person?

Someone definitely has an inferiority complex.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
Check out the new $350,000.00 LiveAquaria.com website. I know you like that type of thing. Just launched last evening. More to come, including " Bill me Later ". You do not even have to pay and we will send you a fish. "Kind of like " I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a fish today " O. K. Popeye and Wimpy. Have fun with that one.

Very nice!!..... but your prices are a bit steep!
Did you raise them to off set the cost of the website?
And what about the 60 day Guarantee?

Guess I'm going to have to stand above the crowed and launch a truly revolutionary website.
Stay tunned:

 

[naesco]

Race I like the new site.
I like the guarantee.
I like the aqua-cultured certificate.
I like the easy-moderate selection options.

Notwithstanding, Mr. Kohen's comments, I would like to see more 'honesty' (not implying dishonesty) with the difficulty issue of certain fish and coral that industry knows is in this category.

For example, Moorish Idols, cleaner fish etc.
In addition the caveat might include large adult angel fish.

More candidness separates your company from the others and puts you in the front of the pack in ethical issues which is an example for all to follow.

Thank you

 

[GCT]

I applaud most of the suppliers. They are trying to do their best. I have nothing to do with any aqua business, but wanted to add some of my knowledge to this fray.

There will be bad folks in all businesses.

I am retired military and have been stationed in alot of the mentioned places. I spent 7 years total in those parts. I have kept salt water fish in the early 70's and quit. I quit due to being moved all over the place. I am in my final place and got back into the hobby about a year ago.

It is easy for people to place blame on things based on TV and some sensationalism. If some of the folks complaining have ever lived in some of those mentioned areas they would understand that deforestation and the runoff covering the reefs is killing them.

What is even worse! Try watching them dynamite the reef to extract the lime to use in concrete. That is what is really going on, and it is destroying reefs so citizens in other countries can have roads and sidewalks.

Suppliers are teaching local people to net/handle fish, buying only net caught fish, excluding countries that do not comply. Even with those efforts there will be players in the supply game that will do whatever it takes to deliver a fish.

Think about that fisherman that needs to feed his or her family and if they do not deliver the goods, they starve. No welfare or food stamps over there.

I look and read everyday and see people buying pretty fish they know nothing about! Check some of the posts on this site. It does sadden me. How do you guarantee that! I love to investigate and gain knowledge on a living animal I intend to purchase. All of these internet sites and knowledge are possbile because of suppliers !

Sorry for the long post.

Gordon

 

[Race]

Kalk, my prices have never been cheap.

 

[swsaltwater]

So you are saying the wholesalers are holding the good stuff for you and selling LFS's the leftovers? Another reason I don't buy from you know who. Apparently by what you say it's only Quality to you. BTW when I bought there it was no better then anyone elses fish, only the prices were higher.