If you believe in your livestock, why not guarantee it ?
- Thread starter Race
- Start date
Race,
Does your 14 day guarantee include sending your legal team after someone who reports losses?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... id=1363010
I do find this humorous given all your criticism of those who don't offer guarantees.
Does your 14 day guarantee include sending your legal team after someone who reports losses?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... id=1363010
I do find this humorous given all your criticism of those who don't offer guarantees.
You could probably fill a book with the stuff that has been deleted or hidden over the years.. some of it deservingly, some of it just because it involved paying sponsors. You don't truly have freedom of speech on internet boards, the owners are free to remove your posts as they see fit, and often do if it's of a controversial nature.
For those who were snoozing in, I actually did get up in time to follow the links. In a nutshell someone turned in a claim for a lot of DOA. They were basically informed the claim appeared excessive and were asked for some proof. Apparently they (Drs. F&S) decided to just go ahead and replace the stuff to quell the bad PR. In the thread a lot of people chimed in with their experiences. It turns out most people have better luck with the stuff shipped from Diver's Den, than the stuff dropshipped from Quality. Several of the posters indicated they would not buy the dropship anymore, but would continue to buy from Diver's Den. The thread was turning into a mild bashing of Quality Marine so in comes the damage control. (I guess)
What I find ironic is that Race is learning the fish and corals do benefit from a rest stop at the retailers place, as compared to the turn and burn at the wholesaler. This is completely opposite of what he was claiming a while back, when he/they were claiming it was less stressful for the fish and corals to be shipped direct from the wholesaler to the hobbyist, bypassing the retailer. Good to see the public teaching Race this lesson that others tried to explain to him.
Mitch
What I find ironic is that Race is learning the fish and corals do benefit from a rest stop at the retailers place, as compared to the turn and burn at the wholesaler. This is completely opposite of what he was claiming a while back, when he/they were claiming it was less stressful for the fish and corals to be shipped direct from the wholesaler to the hobbyist, bypassing the retailer. Good to see the public teaching Race this lesson that others tried to explain to him.
Mitch
dizzy":3gjnciih said:
Definately! Picking a fish at a pet store that looks healthy and only has a short 20 min ride home has a much better then the pickers at a wholesale outfit that might or might not be qualified to pick a healthy fish sending you something via 24 hr pickup. My fish from LA usually arrive in 4-6 hours and I pick em up at 11 pm instead of waiting till morning. I never saw any thing that made me believe QM was any better then the others on 104th.
Golden Gen before moving was the cleanest shop on the block IMO, you could have eaten off the floor and the tanks were spotless. I always wondered why that did not amount to better fish....
Because if you buy the cyanide special, it doesn't matter how clean your tanks/facility are. You can only do so much to make garbage smell good but it's still garbage.
I have only been to QM once, 3 or 4 years ago. At the time I thought it was a dump, I have no idea what it's like now with all the dfs money. SDC had a much nicer facility at the time. Haven't been to the other 104th places.
I have only been to QM once, 3 or 4 years ago. At the time I thought it was a dump, I have no idea what it's like now with all the dfs money. SDC had a much nicer facility at the time. Haven't been to the other 104th places.
I want to respond to this thread personally to dispel some misconceptions and try and provide some insight for some of the folks here. I am sorry that I was unable to do so sooner but I have been traveling quite a bit lately and just returned from Penn State University.
I was honored to be invited by Sanjay Joshi and the North Central Pennsylvania Aquarium Reef Society (NCPARS) to be their guest speaker at the spring frag swap held on campus. I can honestly say that this was an incredible event! It was great to have the opportunity to talk to so many enthusiastic and dedicated hobbyists who are so passionate about their fish and coral.
Sanjay’s 500 gallon reef aquarium in his basement is a sight to behold and is one incredible aquarium. The Penn State Aquarium, a 96” x 42” SPS dominated reef aquarium in the HUB-Robeson student union donated by the graduating seniors of the class of ’99, is another fantastic display with coral, fish and invertebrates. What better way to show the 10,000 students who walk by the tank every day what is possible?
For those of you who have been watching and participating in this thread I would like to respond to some of your comments, and provide my opinion on some of the issues brought to light recently.
Drs. Foster and Smith/LiveAquaria.com ships tens of thousands of aquarium animals each year, and we have a proven track record of successfully doing so for many years. If this were not the case I would not be employed here at DFS and this sector of our business would cease. I feel we have been successful in providing quality fish to the consumer’s who do not have access to purchase locally from a retail store that sells quality animals with knowledgeable staff that are able to care for the animals properly. I have always encouraged and support customers who support their local stores if they are fortunate enough to actually have one.
Unfortunately on rare occasions there are problems, and no one that operates B&M retail store or etail storefront in the aquarium industry is immune to this as we are dealing with live animals. I have worked in this industry which I am so passionate about for over 25 years in B&M retail, wholesale/import/export, and in the catalog/etail sector. No where during my tenure at any of these places did things work out perfectly 100% of the time; problems can and do happen from time to time. It is important for us here at DFS to question customers who report what we deem as excessive mortality. We stand behind everything we offer, but when something is amiss, it’s important that we investigate the situation so that we can make improvements and try and help customers. This is true for any responsible company in the aquarium industry, weather it be B&M retail or etail.
The bulk of our business is direct shipped from California, Florida, and Illinois and what we bring in and handle at our Rhinelander facility consists of specific animals that our customers want to see the exact specimen being offered, which is why we have chosen to offer WYSIWYG livestock.
I feel strongly about purchasing quality animals from quality suppliers, and the chain of custody plays a major role in the health and well being of aquarium animals. When working with experienced supply chains and operators, the less a fish is transported, handled, bagged, shipped, and acclimated into different environments, the better chances that these animals will do well once they arrive in the hands of the educated aquarist.
Its sad to see so many experienced store owners and internet providers here on Reefs.org who have posted in this thread fail to recognize, appreciate, or even care for that matter, about companies that do things right. I have purchased fish from Quality Marine since 1983 when I worked in B&M retail, and with the exception of a few years during transitional stages of my career in this industry, still do so today 25 years later. I can honestly say that QM has the best quality, variety, and most consistent livestock 365 days a year.
The owner and most of the staff at Quality Marine are some of the most experienced veterans in the marine ornamentals trade. These folks work diligently and have a complete understanding of what it takes to provide a quality animal. The reason I have a great deal of respect for Quality Marine is they have worked diligently to continuously refine their operation, from their handling and holding systems all the way back to their exclusive supply lines with short chains of custody.
One thing that is overlooked these days is the chain of custody overseas, and how this has a major impact on the overall health of fish offered in the marine ornamentals trade. Most fish change hands far too many times and held in less than ideal conditions for days or weeks before they even see an export station. Some of these fish from certain areas of the world can be bouncing up and down on a ship for well over a week at sea before they even hit land. Once there hopefully they are screened, held, and then packaged properly before export. This very long chain of custody is the reason there is so much inconsistency in the quality of animals offered in the marine ornamentals trade today. Almost every wholesaler these days is competing with the same fish, and using price as their competitive edge. All of you here that read these threads and have been in the business for a while, know what I am referring to. You see this more than ever now, week in and week out, on most suppliers stock lists.
Quality Marine is the only company I know of that has developed exclusive supply lines from more areas around the world with short chains of custody. These fish are hands down superior in quality and consistency. Fiji is one such area where QM’s exclusive supply line is owned and operated by one of the most experienced collectors in the marine ornamentals trade. This station employs skilled, well trained divers that harvest responsibly, don’t cut corners, and know how to properly handle and ship marine animals. The collection areas utilized at this station in Fiji are in very close proximity to where the fish are held, so the animals are sitting in a modern holding system, with filtered water within hours of being harvested. To me, having the ability to offer a superior product to customers, and knowing the facts about how the fish got here is worth a little more as far as cost is concerned.
I have seen numerous wholesalers and have looked at all kinds of acclimation, quarantine, and holding systems over the years. Not one that I know of even comes close to the sophistication, design, layout, and construction of Quality Marine’s warehouse. This facility, combined with their feeding protocols and treatment of the animals by their experienced husbandry staff is why I purchase fish from QM.
Regards,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
I was honored to be invited by Sanjay Joshi and the North Central Pennsylvania Aquarium Reef Society (NCPARS) to be their guest speaker at the spring frag swap held on campus. I can honestly say that this was an incredible event! It was great to have the opportunity to talk to so many enthusiastic and dedicated hobbyists who are so passionate about their fish and coral.
Sanjay’s 500 gallon reef aquarium in his basement is a sight to behold and is one incredible aquarium. The Penn State Aquarium, a 96” x 42” SPS dominated reef aquarium in the HUB-Robeson student union donated by the graduating seniors of the class of ’99, is another fantastic display with coral, fish and invertebrates. What better way to show the 10,000 students who walk by the tank every day what is possible?
For those of you who have been watching and participating in this thread I would like to respond to some of your comments, and provide my opinion on some of the issues brought to light recently.
Drs. Foster and Smith/LiveAquaria.com ships tens of thousands of aquarium animals each year, and we have a proven track record of successfully doing so for many years. If this were not the case I would not be employed here at DFS and this sector of our business would cease. I feel we have been successful in providing quality fish to the consumer’s who do not have access to purchase locally from a retail store that sells quality animals with knowledgeable staff that are able to care for the animals properly. I have always encouraged and support customers who support their local stores if they are fortunate enough to actually have one.
Unfortunately on rare occasions there are problems, and no one that operates B&M retail store or etail storefront in the aquarium industry is immune to this as we are dealing with live animals. I have worked in this industry which I am so passionate about for over 25 years in B&M retail, wholesale/import/export, and in the catalog/etail sector. No where during my tenure at any of these places did things work out perfectly 100% of the time; problems can and do happen from time to time. It is important for us here at DFS to question customers who report what we deem as excessive mortality. We stand behind everything we offer, but when something is amiss, it’s important that we investigate the situation so that we can make improvements and try and help customers. This is true for any responsible company in the aquarium industry, weather it be B&M retail or etail.
The bulk of our business is direct shipped from California, Florida, and Illinois and what we bring in and handle at our Rhinelander facility consists of specific animals that our customers want to see the exact specimen being offered, which is why we have chosen to offer WYSIWYG livestock.
I feel strongly about purchasing quality animals from quality suppliers, and the chain of custody plays a major role in the health and well being of aquarium animals. When working with experienced supply chains and operators, the less a fish is transported, handled, bagged, shipped, and acclimated into different environments, the better chances that these animals will do well once they arrive in the hands of the educated aquarist.
Its sad to see so many experienced store owners and internet providers here on Reefs.org who have posted in this thread fail to recognize, appreciate, or even care for that matter, about companies that do things right. I have purchased fish from Quality Marine since 1983 when I worked in B&M retail, and with the exception of a few years during transitional stages of my career in this industry, still do so today 25 years later. I can honestly say that QM has the best quality, variety, and most consistent livestock 365 days a year.
The owner and most of the staff at Quality Marine are some of the most experienced veterans in the marine ornamentals trade. These folks work diligently and have a complete understanding of what it takes to provide a quality animal. The reason I have a great deal of respect for Quality Marine is they have worked diligently to continuously refine their operation, from their handling and holding systems all the way back to their exclusive supply lines with short chains of custody.
One thing that is overlooked these days is the chain of custody overseas, and how this has a major impact on the overall health of fish offered in the marine ornamentals trade. Most fish change hands far too many times and held in less than ideal conditions for days or weeks before they even see an export station. Some of these fish from certain areas of the world can be bouncing up and down on a ship for well over a week at sea before they even hit land. Once there hopefully they are screened, held, and then packaged properly before export. This very long chain of custody is the reason there is so much inconsistency in the quality of animals offered in the marine ornamentals trade today. Almost every wholesaler these days is competing with the same fish, and using price as their competitive edge. All of you here that read these threads and have been in the business for a while, know what I am referring to. You see this more than ever now, week in and week out, on most suppliers stock lists.
Quality Marine is the only company I know of that has developed exclusive supply lines from more areas around the world with short chains of custody. These fish are hands down superior in quality and consistency. Fiji is one such area where QM’s exclusive supply line is owned and operated by one of the most experienced collectors in the marine ornamentals trade. This station employs skilled, well trained divers that harvest responsibly, don’t cut corners, and know how to properly handle and ship marine animals. The collection areas utilized at this station in Fiji are in very close proximity to where the fish are held, so the animals are sitting in a modern holding system, with filtered water within hours of being harvested. To me, having the ability to offer a superior product to customers, and knowing the facts about how the fish got here is worth a little more as far as cost is concerned.
I have seen numerous wholesalers and have looked at all kinds of acclimation, quarantine, and holding systems over the years. Not one that I know of even comes close to the sophistication, design, layout, and construction of Quality Marine’s warehouse. This facility, combined with their feeding protocols and treatment of the animals by their experienced husbandry staff is why I purchase fish from QM.
Regards,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
Kevin I think that post is quite misleading in favor of QM, I know of more then one or two other wholesalers with the same small supply chains. Your post implies QM does but no one else has the same process. Isn't Cortez setting up direct in Papua ???? PAF on corals is one that is direct from Walt Smith......For that matter Transhipping direct from the collectors is a much better way to go if hops along the supply are what you are trying to shrink. QM does not screen for Flat worms, nudibranch, and other pest as I have treated tanks infected via Live Aquaria, yet I see no warnings on the items you dropship from them. Most people I talk to assume all stuff comes from Rhinelander. There is no way a wholesaler can afford to flatworm exit every shipment and inspect for nudis on every coral.
Mitch,
The Sponsors Forum Section located at the bottom of the home page titled Drs. Foster and Smith/LiveAquaria.com is provided by RC to all paying sponsors. This section is an area that can be utilized by any paying sponsors to host forums for product or technical questions, promotions etc.
The Drs. Foster & Smith/LiveAquaria.com paid forum section contains some very positive comments, answers to specific questions asked by RC members, as well how we handle more difficult situations when they arise. On rare occasions, when we are unable to validate the legitimacy of a claim made against our company in our paid forum section, where we have no documentation to validate this claim, we have asked a moderator to remove the post from our paid section. There have been countless occasions over the years when a competitor has actually made false accusations against DFS so we are always cognizant of this fact.
Reefcentral.com has policies that differ from Reefs.org a bit, and it is my understanding that the moderators can and will remove posts they deem is in violation of the user agreement. If you have specific questions about ReefCentral.com or their policies I would encourage you to email them directly.
Robert,
I agree with you that there are other wholesalers who utilize a supply chain out of Fiji, but none of these exporters’ from that locale have an exclusive relationship with any one importer here in the US. Furthermore, none of the other exporters operating in Fiji ship fish in any significant volume or quantity to meet the current demand as far as I know. Coral on the other hand is a different story. I think all marine organisms are affected by the chain of custody scenario, but unfortunately the fish themselves are the animals that are impacted the most.
If you have some time please review my post again where I stated: “Quality Marine is the only company I know of that has developed exclusive supply lines from more areas around the world with short chains of custody.”
Steve Robinson has posted here on his involvement in Papua New Guinea. To the best of my knowledge this locale has a long way to go before it’s is a viable and working supply region. I think it’s hard to say who will purchase these fish when they get things in order and start harvesting and shipping, so we will have to wait and see. This question may be better answered by Steve if you were to ask him directly in another thread.
There are a few really good transship companies that offer animals from a select group of sound regions around the world. Having a thorough understanding of how things work is critical. Some variables that affect transshipping includes: Who exactly are you are dealing with? What region are you actually buying from? What exporter or importer here in the states is the transhipper representing or utilizing? Who exactly is harvesting and handling the animals overseas? What type of systems or conditions are these animals being housed in before export? How experienced is the export station in regards to packaging and handling? If you know all of these answers, are willing to take the risk, and have experience and a thorough understanding of how to handle these fish on transship, then this may be a good option for you.
Unfortunately the sad reality is that there are numerous Transship companies here in the states who deal in freshwater and marine animals that are just in it to make a fast buck with little regards to the animals. A good percentage of these companies just transfer and move boxes of fish, shuffle paperwork, and slaps freight labels on these boxes to ship all over the country.
My philosophy with corals is trust no one and quarantine everything, even if you are receiving frags from the most experienced coral growers or suppliers. Anyone who has a great deal of experience in growing Acropora and Montipora spp. know how long it really takes before you can be assured that any coral is 100% pest free. We encourage everyone to properly quarantine any animal that you bring into your home weather it be, fish, coral, or inverts.
Flatworm exit has no affect on the species that prey on Acropora coral. You may have better luck using Tropic Marin Pro Coral Cure (TMPCC) or ReVive Coral Cleaner to identify Acropora spp. that are infested so you can take corrective action.
Regards,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
The Sponsors Forum Section located at the bottom of the home page titled Drs. Foster and Smith/LiveAquaria.com is provided by RC to all paying sponsors. This section is an area that can be utilized by any paying sponsors to host forums for product or technical questions, promotions etc.
The Drs. Foster & Smith/LiveAquaria.com paid forum section contains some very positive comments, answers to specific questions asked by RC members, as well how we handle more difficult situations when they arise. On rare occasions, when we are unable to validate the legitimacy of a claim made against our company in our paid forum section, where we have no documentation to validate this claim, we have asked a moderator to remove the post from our paid section. There have been countless occasions over the years when a competitor has actually made false accusations against DFS so we are always cognizant of this fact.
Reefcentral.com has policies that differ from Reefs.org a bit, and it is my understanding that the moderators can and will remove posts they deem is in violation of the user agreement. If you have specific questions about ReefCentral.com or their policies I would encourage you to email them directly.
Robert,
I agree with you that there are other wholesalers who utilize a supply chain out of Fiji, but none of these exporters’ from that locale have an exclusive relationship with any one importer here in the US. Furthermore, none of the other exporters operating in Fiji ship fish in any significant volume or quantity to meet the current demand as far as I know. Coral on the other hand is a different story. I think all marine organisms are affected by the chain of custody scenario, but unfortunately the fish themselves are the animals that are impacted the most.
If you have some time please review my post again where I stated: “Quality Marine is the only company I know of that has developed exclusive supply lines from more areas around the world with short chains of custody.”
Steve Robinson has posted here on his involvement in Papua New Guinea. To the best of my knowledge this locale has a long way to go before it’s is a viable and working supply region. I think it’s hard to say who will purchase these fish when they get things in order and start harvesting and shipping, so we will have to wait and see. This question may be better answered by Steve if you were to ask him directly in another thread.
There are a few really good transship companies that offer animals from a select group of sound regions around the world. Having a thorough understanding of how things work is critical. Some variables that affect transshipping includes: Who exactly are you are dealing with? What region are you actually buying from? What exporter or importer here in the states is the transhipper representing or utilizing? Who exactly is harvesting and handling the animals overseas? What type of systems or conditions are these animals being housed in before export? How experienced is the export station in regards to packaging and handling? If you know all of these answers, are willing to take the risk, and have experience and a thorough understanding of how to handle these fish on transship, then this may be a good option for you.
Unfortunately the sad reality is that there are numerous Transship companies here in the states who deal in freshwater and marine animals that are just in it to make a fast buck with little regards to the animals. A good percentage of these companies just transfer and move boxes of fish, shuffle paperwork, and slaps freight labels on these boxes to ship all over the country.
My philosophy with corals is trust no one and quarantine everything, even if you are receiving frags from the most experienced coral growers or suppliers. Anyone who has a great deal of experience in growing Acropora and Montipora spp. know how long it really takes before you can be assured that any coral is 100% pest free. We encourage everyone to properly quarantine any animal that you bring into your home weather it be, fish, coral, or inverts.
Flatworm exit has no affect on the species that prey on Acropora coral. You may have better luck using Tropic Marin Pro Coral Cure (TMPCC) or ReVive Coral Cleaner to identify Acropora spp. that are infested so you can take corrective action.
Regards,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith
Kevin,
I think you guys have every right to question an excessive claim and if I was you I wouldn't replace the stuff under fishy circumstances. And if people are making up stuff just to unfairly make you guys look bad, then I guess I see your point, but this wasn't simply a case where an offensive post got removed. The thread that got removed was actually quite informative. The posts I was reading were not so much from the person filing the bogus claim, but from other people who bought from live aquaria. People were relating their experiences regarding stuff shipped from WI and also stuff shipped out of LA. I'd be real surprised if Reef Central killed a thread like on their own accord, but if they did then I think you should get on their ass.
Mitch
I think you guys have every right to question an excessive claim and if I was you I wouldn't replace the stuff under fishy circumstances. And if people are making up stuff just to unfairly make you guys look bad, then I guess I see your point, but this wasn't simply a case where an offensive post got removed. The thread that got removed was actually quite informative. The posts I was reading were not so much from the person filing the bogus claim, but from other people who bought from live aquaria. People were relating their experiences regarding stuff shipped from WI and also stuff shipped out of LA. I'd be real surprised if Reef Central killed a thread like on their own accord, but if they did then I think you should get on their ass.
Mitch
Mitch, I think that RC has proven over time that they will kill AND delete any threads that may negatively affect advertisers. While I can, on the surface, understand why they do this, it is my opinion that this practice actually does more harm to the community as a whole. I don't see them changing this tactic anytime soon.
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