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Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You
- Thread starter Race
- Start date
Race":1rcd85pj said:For whatever it is worth, we have thousands and thousands and thousands of visitors EACH day at our websites. Through Coremetrics we track their behavior. 95 % simply read information but do not purchase. There is a reason that I have a staff that does nothing but research and write.
LiveAquaria.com alone has several thousand unique readers EVERY single day. Not sure why they are reading--- but we know what. Naturally my assumptions will be different than yours. Perhaps they are all ignorant and do not actually learn anything about the hobby. Just for kicks you may also keep an eye on our forum at RC. Oftentimes more users browse and learn there than some other areas.
I will again state that we believe most people visit the web to learn before they decide to enter a hobby. Do any of you have nonaquatic hobbies? Did the web play a role? Did you research the web BEFORE you obtained a new puppy or kitty? I bet more than a few of you did. If you did not--you probably should have. Education is key.
I think you are right in many respects.
When I visit a LFS and see potential reefers browsing around, I always take the time to tell them it is a huge mistake to impulse buy on the spot.
They will be sold useless equipment and eventually fish, inverts and coral that have no chance of survival in a newbie tank..
I give them the names of the forums and advise them to google if they forget the names. I recommend books to them.
90% walk out without buying. You cannot deal with the ignorant few.
Gee Naesco, that's an awfully broad brush you're using to tar retailers with.naesco":w1ijk319 said:Race":w1ijk319 said:For whatever it is worth, we have thousands and thousands and thousands of visitors EACH day at our websites. Through Coremetrics we track their behavior. 95 % simply read information but do not purchase. There is a reason that I have a staff that does nothing but research and write.
LiveAquaria.com alone has several thousand unique readers EVERY single day. Not sure why they are reading--- but we know what. Naturally my assumptions will be different than yours. Perhaps they are all ignorant and do not actually learn anything about the hobby. Just for kicks you may also keep an eye on our forum at RC. Oftentimes more users browse and learn there than some other areas.
I will again state that we believe most people visit the web to learn before they decide to enter a hobby. Do any of you have nonaquatic hobbies? Did the web play a role? Did you research the web BEFORE you obtained a new puppy or kitty? I bet more than a few of you did. If you did not--you probably should have. Education is key.
I think you are right in many respects.
When I visit a LFS and see potential reefers browsing around, I always take the time to tell them it is a huge mistake to impulse buy on the spot.
They will be sold useless equipment and eventually fish, inverts and coral that have no chance of survival in a newbie tank..
I give them the names of the forums and advise them to google if they forget the names. I recommend books to them.
90% walk out without buying. You cannot deal with the ignorant few.
I think there's a chance those customers might have learned something from the people working at the store. Maybe even something more useful than the mythinformation that runs rampant on public BB's. You know, stuff like
"They will be sold useless equipment and eventually fish, inverts and coral that have no chance of survival in a newbie tank.."
LOL!!
As to the other point: I think most hobbyists these days started due to nature documentaries on TV. IMO.-Jim
Through all of the comments I have yet to hear a solution. Who really cares what motivated someone to join the hobby? My solution is to do the internet CORRECTLY. It will not go away. The solution for the retail segment is to run CLASS stores with an EDUCATED service staff. Both segments will add people to the hobby.
Some will prefer to shop at retail, other customers like etail and many do both. Does anyone actually think we have the power to change that ? Marketing in this venue is not to change buying habits----but rather cater to them. If they want a quality LFS, give them one. If they want a good web site, provide one.--- "Give the customers what they want".--- By the way, that is actually our slogan at the F&S call center.
That is how simple it really is. Anything else is a failed business plan.
Some will prefer to shop at retail, other customers like etail and many do both. Does anyone actually think we have the power to change that ? Marketing in this venue is not to change buying habits----but rather cater to them. If they want a quality LFS, give them one. If they want a good web site, provide one.--- "Give the customers what they want".--- By the way, that is actually our slogan at the F&S call center.
That is how simple it really is. Anything else is a failed business plan.
I see a problem in the fact that etailers make money off drygoods and undercut livestock, and most LFS's sell drygoods with little profit (or not much at all) and rely on Livestock sales. Obviously this is the issue as customers look to cheaper prices. I feel the solution lies at the manufacturing drygood level and the wholesale livestock levels from a LFS's point of view.
Drygood products I prefer to deal with set min MSRP's to their dealers and enforce them. Bulk discounts should not be given to allow a company to sell it cheaper at retail but for that bulk company to make more money. If a dealer gets a Corvette cheaper due to bulk discounts they still sell it at the same MSRP set at the manufacturer. I really feel this could help level the playing feild a bit in our industry.
At the wholesale level they really need to evaluate the same issue with etailers that dropship, since the wholesalers are doing all the work they should charge more, even double the normal wholesale price. Since a lot of etailers seem content to make smaller mark ups then LFS's and easily live on them with little to no overhead then I don't see why the wholesalers can't charge or take a bigger slice of that profit. The etailer can still make the item cheaper then most LFS's but the wholesaler would make more money and hopefully allow them to stay in business with a little more profit to boot.
I also feel that the wholesaler should also add a slip to explain the item was dropshipped with QT instructions and medical treatment information. I see a lot of parasite issues from dropshipped corals and fish when I am paid to evaluate a tank that utilize the net as a source. In fact I don't think you can claim High quality livestock if even 10% is dropshipped, cause the wholesalers turn it so quick that any meds they use won't kill everything on the fish, and I don't think most wholesalers dip or medicate corals. Your livestock is only higher quality then the competition if you actually house it and treat it IMO.
Drygood products I prefer to deal with set min MSRP's to their dealers and enforce them. Bulk discounts should not be given to allow a company to sell it cheaper at retail but for that bulk company to make more money. If a dealer gets a Corvette cheaper due to bulk discounts they still sell it at the same MSRP set at the manufacturer. I really feel this could help level the playing feild a bit in our industry.
At the wholesale level they really need to evaluate the same issue with etailers that dropship, since the wholesalers are doing all the work they should charge more, even double the normal wholesale price. Since a lot of etailers seem content to make smaller mark ups then LFS's and easily live on them with little to no overhead then I don't see why the wholesalers can't charge or take a bigger slice of that profit. The etailer can still make the item cheaper then most LFS's but the wholesaler would make more money and hopefully allow them to stay in business with a little more profit to boot.
I also feel that the wholesaler should also add a slip to explain the item was dropshipped with QT instructions and medical treatment information. I see a lot of parasite issues from dropshipped corals and fish when I am paid to evaluate a tank that utilize the net as a source. In fact I don't think you can claim High quality livestock if even 10% is dropshipped, cause the wholesalers turn it so quick that any meds they use won't kill everything on the fish, and I don't think most wholesalers dip or medicate corals. Your livestock is only higher quality then the competition if you actually house it and treat it IMO.
Now as for the hobbyist, I think more can be done via recruitment by setting up more public aqauriums, such as in schools, malls, doctors offices, etc. This can only be done by LFS's though for the maintanace aspect. I get more referals from people that have seen a tank in a business then anything else. Seeing a nice tank will get someone hooked.....Since a lot of my customers don't do much on the web especially the older crowd I can't see the web getting the needed recruitment yet, it will take the current generation that is web savvy to age and make money first. Of course all the jobs are going to India and China so you might want to recruit there, hehe..........
Of all the products in the entire pet industry which includes dog, cat, fish, bird, reptile and small pets,---- the fish hard goods have the least margin for profit. For that reason manufactures are pushing for more dropshipping so that they can eliminate the middle person markup. We have had extensive high level personal discussions with some of the biggest and they all tell us the same " to stay in business they must find a better margin ". I mentioned earlier to Mitch that I do not like dropshipping as customer service and delivery tends to suffer. Despite that, since my comment to him, we are dropshipping more than ever as the manufactures push it in an attempt to stay profitable. This concept is not new as Cabelas has done it for years. The real fact is the good LFS cannot move enough product, the big box tend to carry low level SKU's and manufacturers are searching for alternatives to move the mid to high end items, which tend to be low margin. What I am attempting to say is, do not expect any change soon.
On top of all of this do not forget that aquatics is teeny tiny as an industry. Today, sales are soft at all levels and there may be major consolidation. This is not a growth industry. In fact I believe we should focus not on growing the industry but rather improving it. Growth will do nothing but be more cause for concern and regulations by John Q. Public and policy makers. There is absolutely no way to convince anyone that taking fish and coral from the reef is a good thing. Read RDO, there are plenty of PUBLIC posts from past AMDA members and others verifying that death and destruction is inherent to the industry. What is lacking is a cohesive attempt by the industry to improve it.
I feel that I have done some things in constructing a very high quality aquatics facility, promoting aquaculture and helping to expand the fragging concept. That is improving the hobby without expanding it. Does anyone here actually believe that expanding the industry is a good thing ? Seems to me that expansion means more fish and coral will be taken from the ocean. I cannot argue that as a positive.
In conclusion, what I think the industry needs is a major shake down. In a business way, I could care less if some wholesalers, poorly run lfs and etailers go by the way side. Those that will not change should go and the rest will pick up the pieces. I do not want the livestock industry to expand, I want it to consolidate and improve. All of the comments to date have really been arguing who is stealing livestock sales from whom and which group causes the most disease, death and destruction. We should be discussing how to improve the hobby. Does anyone care how we are viewed by the public and policy makers ?
Final thought--- Promote improving the existing industry, growth will be viewed as a negative. Harvesting more wild corals and marine fish to the public is similar to promoting the killing of more wolves, whales, elephants and grizzly bears. Not saying I agree with it, but telling you how I view the public sentiment. If the public needs reason for concern, all they need to do is read 3 years worth of public aquatics forum slander amongst the industry groups.
Promote coral aquaculture and fragging-- Race
On top of all of this do not forget that aquatics is teeny tiny as an industry. Today, sales are soft at all levels and there may be major consolidation. This is not a growth industry. In fact I believe we should focus not on growing the industry but rather improving it. Growth will do nothing but be more cause for concern and regulations by John Q. Public and policy makers. There is absolutely no way to convince anyone that taking fish and coral from the reef is a good thing. Read RDO, there are plenty of PUBLIC posts from past AMDA members and others verifying that death and destruction is inherent to the industry. What is lacking is a cohesive attempt by the industry to improve it.
I feel that I have done some things in constructing a very high quality aquatics facility, promoting aquaculture and helping to expand the fragging concept. That is improving the hobby without expanding it. Does anyone here actually believe that expanding the industry is a good thing ? Seems to me that expansion means more fish and coral will be taken from the ocean. I cannot argue that as a positive.
In conclusion, what I think the industry needs is a major shake down. In a business way, I could care less if some wholesalers, poorly run lfs and etailers go by the way side. Those that will not change should go and the rest will pick up the pieces. I do not want the livestock industry to expand, I want it to consolidate and improve. All of the comments to date have really been arguing who is stealing livestock sales from whom and which group causes the most disease, death and destruction. We should be discussing how to improve the hobby. Does anyone care how we are viewed by the public and policy makers ?
Final thought--- Promote improving the existing industry, growth will be viewed as a negative. Harvesting more wild corals and marine fish to the public is similar to promoting the killing of more wolves, whales, elephants and grizzly bears. Not saying I agree with it, but telling you how I view the public sentiment. If the public needs reason for concern, all they need to do is read 3 years worth of public aquatics forum slander amongst the industry groups.
Promote coral aquaculture and fragging-- Race
SW,
Of all of the pet industry groups, the aquarium hobbyist is by far the most web savvy. All of our in house statistics prove that. House pet product buyers are about 10 years older than livestock purchasers. Dogs and cats tend to appeal to the mid to older crowd while aquatics is for the younger, more tech proficient. These are facts from our own database. Naturally, there is some cross over.
Of all of the pet industry groups, the aquarium hobbyist is by far the most web savvy. All of our in house statistics prove that. House pet product buyers are about 10 years older than livestock purchasers. Dogs and cats tend to appeal to the mid to older crowd while aquatics is for the younger, more tech proficient. These are facts from our own database. Naturally, there is some cross over.
Nice post Race.
Most of the in the know hobbyists I know feel the same way about expanding the industry vs improving the industry, but are at a loss as to how to move forward or where to put any effort. Since the industry is made up of independents at all levels (from collector to B&M), and since all those independents don't seem to want the same things, it seems impossible to nudge any change that will make any real difference. Our local club has extra money but can't find a place to send it to help make a difference in the hobby industry and it is incredibly frustrating to people (though we are working on internal programs).
If a paradigm shift is needed, how can people make it happen besides hoping it will happen by itself?
Most of the in the know hobbyists I know feel the same way about expanding the industry vs improving the industry, but are at a loss as to how to move forward or where to put any effort. Since the industry is made up of independents at all levels (from collector to B&M), and since all those independents don't seem to want the same things, it seems impossible to nudge any change that will make any real difference. Our local club has extra money but can't find a place to send it to help make a difference in the hobby industry and it is incredibly frustrating to people (though we are working on internal programs).
If a paradigm shift is needed, how can people make it happen besides hoping it will happen by itself?
I don't think recruiting is expanding the trade. We have to replace the people leaving the trade. I see real estate agents leaving in droves due to the housing market, so someone has to replace them.
As for your stats Race, I can see how you think the younger crowd is in the trade, They are more tech savvy and have less money so they go online. I assure you at least in Tucson the older crowd is more into the hobby. 30-60 seem to be the demographics with some younger folks most of which can not afford the hobby and I worry since they skimp on equipment and buy cheap Petco fish then call me to ask how to fix the fallout.........50 gallon, sea clone skimmer, 5 pounds of LR, and no water movement is being seen far to often with the young crowd for my taste. Also they don't spend the money to fix issue, instead they allow all the fish to die off from ick and start over.....
As for your stats Race, I can see how you think the younger crowd is in the trade, They are more tech savvy and have less money so they go online. I assure you at least in Tucson the older crowd is more into the hobby. 30-60 seem to be the demographics with some younger folks most of which can not afford the hobby and I worry since they skimp on equipment and buy cheap Petco fish then call me to ask how to fix the fallout.........50 gallon, sea clone skimmer, 5 pounds of LR, and no water movement is being seen far to often with the young crowd for my taste. Also they don't spend the money to fix issue, instead they allow all the fish to die off from ick and start over.....
Thanks Rich,
I do not know the answer but suspect that it will come in baby steps with no real revolution. From the coral perspective, aquaculture and fragging amongst the private hobbyists will help. I realize this will not eliminate wild harvesting but it may help it. Right now the public is simply under the assumption that all corals (Nemos too) in a tank are wild harvested. I gave a presentation to about 400 preveterinary students at Michigan State University and they were quite surprised that coral were not on the endangered list. We have our work cut out. I convinced a few but we need more public education. SW made a good point about school participation. The web can help here too. If one does a google search you will be surprised at how many teaching institutions, of all levels, link to our PetEducation web site. PetEducation.com was created as we knew that colleges and schools would not link to a commerce site such as DrsfosterSmith.com. A viral kind of marketing if you will. What we cannot do is take care of school tanks and people like SW may have a niche there.
Kevin Kohen and I with a California PR firm are preparing some TV scripts to showcase our aquaculture facility on cabel T.V. We will utilize a celebrity sympathetic to the aquarium trade. This show series will mostly be PR for our company but it will also project the hobby and aquaculture in a positive light. This will be a small step as we cannot afford much air time. The fallout in post broadcast interviews may do more, not sure.
Kevin has also been asked to be on the Department of Natural Resource board for invasive species. The bad thing is they are obviously looking more closely at the aquarium trade than ever before. They have inspected our aquaculture facility twice I believe, and we welcome that. The good news is we may have a very professional representative in Kevin.
I have been supportive of MASNA as I think they are a voice and I believe that we need strong hobby club membership.
My staff and I also write the veterinary content for AnimalPlanet.com and we may be able to develop some opportunities there. We also supply the educational content for Purine O.N.E.. Kind of odd when I am one of their direct competitors in the dog food industry. I do not worry about competition as press is press.
To be perfectly honest I do not know the real benefits of any of these ventures nor do I have answers. It is easy to see what not to do and that was the gist of my previous post. I am still in the learning phase and will keep thinking.
Thanks, Race
I do not know the answer but suspect that it will come in baby steps with no real revolution. From the coral perspective, aquaculture and fragging amongst the private hobbyists will help. I realize this will not eliminate wild harvesting but it may help it. Right now the public is simply under the assumption that all corals (Nemos too) in a tank are wild harvested. I gave a presentation to about 400 preveterinary students at Michigan State University and they were quite surprised that coral were not on the endangered list. We have our work cut out. I convinced a few but we need more public education. SW made a good point about school participation. The web can help here too. If one does a google search you will be surprised at how many teaching institutions, of all levels, link to our PetEducation web site. PetEducation.com was created as we knew that colleges and schools would not link to a commerce site such as DrsfosterSmith.com. A viral kind of marketing if you will. What we cannot do is take care of school tanks and people like SW may have a niche there.
Kevin Kohen and I with a California PR firm are preparing some TV scripts to showcase our aquaculture facility on cabel T.V. We will utilize a celebrity sympathetic to the aquarium trade. This show series will mostly be PR for our company but it will also project the hobby and aquaculture in a positive light. This will be a small step as we cannot afford much air time. The fallout in post broadcast interviews may do more, not sure.
Kevin has also been asked to be on the Department of Natural Resource board for invasive species. The bad thing is they are obviously looking more closely at the aquarium trade than ever before. They have inspected our aquaculture facility twice I believe, and we welcome that. The good news is we may have a very professional representative in Kevin.
I have been supportive of MASNA as I think they are a voice and I believe that we need strong hobby club membership.
My staff and I also write the veterinary content for AnimalPlanet.com and we may be able to develop some opportunities there. We also supply the educational content for Purine O.N.E.. Kind of odd when I am one of their direct competitors in the dog food industry. I do not worry about competition as press is press.
To be perfectly honest I do not know the real benefits of any of these ventures nor do I have answers. It is easy to see what not to do and that was the gist of my previous post. I am still in the learning phase and will keep thinking.
Thanks, Race
Sw,
Doesn't that mean then that we are marketing to a different segment ? I guess we are not really direct competitors. I will turn my segment on to the hobby and you do yours. Talk about win-win. That has been my point all along. It takes all of us to serve the trade.
Doesn't that mean then that we are marketing to a different segment ? I guess we are not really direct competitors. I will turn my segment on to the hobby and you do yours. Talk about win-win. That has been my point all along. It takes all of us to serve the trade.
Sw,
In response to your previous post:
If people are leaving real estate because of the housing market, why do we need more agents to replace them ? The problem is not--- not enough agents, it is--- not enough buyers. All of the marketing in the world will not create buyers. Marketing can only sell houses to those willing to buy. By the way, the internet plays a major role in the housing market too. Fewer buyers means we need fewer sellers, not more! The fact is that in good years the number of selling agents increases to match the market. In lean years they find another job and the survivors continue on. I am perfectly fine with that. Simple supply and demand. Does anyone out there in business actually think that things would-- or should-- proceed differently?
As I mentioned, I could care less if we have an industry flush out. We need it at all levels. The demand for fish and coral is down and therefore we have more livestock and sellers--- than buyers. Something has to give.
In response to your previous post:
If people are leaving real estate because of the housing market, why do we need more agents to replace them ? The problem is not--- not enough agents, it is--- not enough buyers. All of the marketing in the world will not create buyers. Marketing can only sell houses to those willing to buy. By the way, the internet plays a major role in the housing market too. Fewer buyers means we need fewer sellers, not more! The fact is that in good years the number of selling agents increases to match the market. In lean years they find another job and the survivors continue on. I am perfectly fine with that. Simple supply and demand. Does anyone out there in business actually think that things would-- or should-- proceed differently?
As I mentioned, I could care less if we have an industry flush out. We need it at all levels. The demand for fish and coral is down and therefore we have more livestock and sellers--- than buyers. Something has to give.
I agree with Race that more needs to be done to advertise aquacultured products. Of course I am a little biased because I am in aquaculture, but it still surprised me how few people realize that "nemos" and seahorses etc. can be cultured and don't have to be taken from the wild. I think the main problem is that there is very little support for aquaculture in this county. The public thinks that aquaculture does more harm than good to the environment. If it is managed properly, this does not have to be the case. Aquaculture is where it's at, for food and for aquarium products in my opinion. The rate at which the world is harvesting fish for food and for the aquarium industry scares me. I applaud Race for his efforts and I wish more people in the industry would spread the word about aquacultured fish and corals.
Bookfish I did not mean to paint every LFS employee with the same brush.
For the record I buy all my stuff from an LFS. The owner is informed, experienced and up to date.
No bioballs, cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol or dendro in his tanks.
But I enjoy visiting all stores and look forward to educating potential reefers about studying before they make the plunge and cautioning them about taking advice from the LFS that display dying Moorish Idol, shrivelled dendros etc.
Wayne
For the record I buy all my stuff from an LFS. The owner is informed, experienced and up to date.
No bioballs, cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol or dendro in his tanks.
But I enjoy visiting all stores and look forward to educating potential reefers about studying before they make the plunge and cautioning them about taking advice from the LFS that display dying Moorish Idol, shrivelled dendros etc.
Wayne
croaker":un73upvg said:I agree with Race that more needs to be done to advertise aquacultured products. Of course I am a little biased because I am in aquaculture, but it still surprised me how few people realize that "nemos" and seahorses etc. can be cultured and don't have to be taken from the wild. I think the main problem is that there is very little support for aquaculture in this county. The public thinks that aquaculture does more harm than good to the environment. If it is managed properly, this does not have to be the case. Aquaculture is where it's at, for food and for aquarium products in my opinion. The rate at which the world is harvesting fish for food and for the aquarium industry scares me. I applaud Race for his efforts and I wish more people in the industry would spread the word about aquacultured fish and corals.
I think the time has come to prohibit the import of fish, coral and inverts that have proven to be sucessfully aquacultured.
Industry has a moral duty to stop the import of wild specimens where aqua cultured are available.
Perhaps instead of "Give the customer what they want." a better motto would be "Get the customer to want what they need."
A difficult concept to enact at the retail level when serving the customers desires are preeminate but one that should be in all our minds with the scrutiny that the hobby is under.
A difficult concept to enact at the retail level when serving the customers desires are preeminate but one that should be in all our minds with the scrutiny that the hobby is under.
swsaltwater":2v3xh9mn said:I see a problem in the fact that etailers make money off drygoods and undercut livestock, and most LFS's sell drygoods with little profit (or not much at all) and rely on Livestock sales. Obviously this is the issue as customers look to cheaper prices. I feel the solution lies at the manufacturing drygood level and the wholesale livestock levels from a LFS's point of view.
Drygood products I prefer to deal with set min MSRP's to their dealers and enforce them. Bulk discounts should not be given to allow a company to sell it cheaper at retail but for that bulk company to make more money. If a dealer gets a Corvette cheaper due to bulk discounts they still sell it at the same MSRP set at the manufacturer. I really feel this could help level the playing feild a bit in our industry.
At the wholesale level they really need to evaluate the same issue with etailers that dropship, since the wholesalers are doing all the work they should charge more, even double the normal wholesale price. Since a lot of etailers seem content to make smaller mark ups then LFS's and easily live on them with little to no overhead then I don't see why the wholesalers can't charge or take a bigger slice of that profit. The etailer can still make the item cheaper then most LFS's but the wholesaler would make more money and hopefully allow them to stay in business with a little more profit to boot.
I also feel that the wholesaler should also add a slip to explain the item was dropshipped with QT instructions and medical treatment information. I see a lot of parasite issues from dropshipped corals and fish when I am paid to evaluate a tank that utilize the net as a source. In fact I don't think you can claim High quality livestock if even 10% is dropshipped, cause the wholesalers turn it so quick that any meds they use won't kill everything on the fish, and I don't think most wholesalers dip or medicate corals. Your livestock is only higher quality then the competition if you actually house it and treat it IMO.
my experience working in the retail field says quite differently-most lfs's do not make margin, or make very little above it, on livestock, (due to combos of either mortality and/or overhead )and use their dry goods to make back their actual overhead/livelihood, for the most part
(tanks/stands being the exception)
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