Borneman calls for boycott on wild Banggai cardinals

[dizzy]

http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com ... tm_content

 

[naesco]

Thanks for the post Dizzy.

We have a number of importers and LFS on this board.

Let us hear from you.

Post whether you will join this admirable grass roots effort
Thank you
Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: your so naive, you make me feel like I'm older then you and needing to guide you

Just committing in print isn't enough Wayne. They all signed the MAC petition a while back but almost none actually supported MAC when it came down to getting certified . What makes you think if they say YES online that they won't just keep on going doping the same ol same ol?

I wish it where just as easy as everyone posting yes and actually following through with it, I really do.

I was blown away they didn't make CITES, what a sham!!!!

 

[swsaltwater]

There is no doubt wild ones just have a crazy mortality rate. Not sure why anyone would not answer the call, helps the pocket book since you only buy dead fish with WC Bangaii.

 

[Anonymous]

Because customers demand them. They allow the sale of other fish, even if they are a lost leader. Lost leaders are not all that uncommon in wholesale, they make large sales happen

If you needed eggs and your grocery store didn't have them you'd probably go else where....100% lost leaders my friend

Same with manufacturing/product lines. The margin on one item my be good, while another is non existent but since that product allows others to move the margin is over looked.

 

[Fish_dave]

I am not going to boycott them. I don't see the mortality that everyone is talking about. I do not buy the bulk of mine from Bali, I buy them from another source that I have seen how they are handled. I am comfortable with my source and the fact that they are handling them properly. I pay more than the Bali prices and they are packed larger to me so I have more freight in them but with the low DOA and the higher than normal price that I charge it works out for me in the end. They feed well in my tanks so hopefully they continue to do well.

I don't sell many, under 50 per week and am not convinced of the need for a boycott. I am convinced of a need to pay more for them and as the price increases there will be more care taken that they survive the trip from collection to hobbyist. I would support a quota and a resultant increase in price.

Dave

P.S. I know that I will get flak for posting this but Hey, it is what I think about it.

 

[Anonymous]

They only ones that will give you flack are the ones that only see black, not even white. Your post goes illustrates just how many things others aren't privy to. There's a ton of fish like that in our trade. Treated wrong, they suck. Treated right and they thrive.

Thanks for posting Dave

 

[naesco]

Well, let us hear from the importers, eh

 

[Anonymous]

Well, let us hear from the importers, eh

And just what do you think Dave does, wash dishes? Try visiting his place, they're always active and my personal favorite as well as my first stop on 104th...nice, clean and quality livestock!!! He's got quite a crew there, always happy when I go by. Although I did smash my finger out in his parking lot once, some dude zipped by in a Lotus or something and I dropped a rock on my hand while gawking :lol:

While I haven't brought a shipment in myself in a few years, you kinda never leave once you are in. I keep getting pulled back quite often

What about the place your son was working at? Have you convinced them and if not what was their reason? I'm sure you're asking elsewhere then just in vapor space. What's the word on the ground?

 

[PeterIMA]

We discussed the high mortality on Banggai Cardinalfish previously. There are several published papers that estimated the population and demonstrated a very high mortality (about 50%). Most of this occurs BEFORE the fish get to export facilities in Bali or Jakarta.

Two speakers (Dr. Bruckner and Dr. Vagelli) discussed the problems and possible management solutions at a Sustainabity session I moderated as part of the Marine Ornamental 08 Conference held in Lake Bueno Vista FL last February.

The first solution discussed by Dr. Bruckner would be to put Banggai Cardinals on CITES Appendix 2. This would then allow quotas to be set by the Indonesian government. Unfortunately, CITES export quotas would have little effect on the overfishing and the high mortality BEFORE the fish reach the exporters. In any event, the Indonesians vetoed the idea of putting Banggai Cardinals into CITES Appendix 2 (prior to the MO08 meeting).

The second solution (or set of solutions) proposed by Dr. Vagelli would be to create Marine Protected Areas (MPAs) to protect habitats to help reduce overfishing of Banggai Cardinals. I have copies of proposals prepared by Dr. Vagelli and think his ideas make good sense. Unfortunately, Dr. Vagelli is not liked by the Indonesians.

The Indonesian government has a World Bank funded program (Coremap II). There are also other sources of funding available to the government (various levels) and to NGOs. So, I am optimistics that management measures will be implemented.

While, Eric Boreman's idea for hobbyists to stop purchasing wild-caught Banggai Cardinals is interesting. It is unlikely to have much impact on the world market or the world supply of this species.

It is better to have programs that work with the fishers/collectors that help to ensure sustainable harvesting. A lot of the problem has to do with poor holding and shipping practices. Ferdinand Cruz looked into this. Through the use of additives in bags, he was able to markedly reduce the mortality on Banggai Cardinals (and other species) shipped by boat from Sulawesi to Les in northern Bali.

Peter Rubec

 

[Caterham]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread.

Unfortunately, with absolutely zero past or current involvement in the trade of marine ornamentals there are some folks here is this community that might take your comments somewhat lightly.

I respect your efforts and hope that you continue to stay involved. All good teams have people cheering for them on the sidelines, out of play.

Warmest regards

 

[naesco]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread.

Unfortunately, with absolutely zero past or current involvement in the trade of marine ornamentals there are some folks here is this community that might take your comments somewhat lightly.

I respect your efforts and hope that you continue to stay involved. All good teams have people cheering for them on the sidelines, out of play.

Warmest regards

Instead of questioning my committment and involvement in the industry and hobby, why don't you gather the courage to post your credentials in the "Industry Who's Who thread at the beginning of the forum as I and others have done.

Thank you
Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

Take your off topic comment to another thread Wayne, we're talking about real issues here. I have far greater respect for Caterham then you, and he's got way loads more actual industry experience then you. In the scheme of things you are no where near even involved, it's just an annoying hobby for, or at least that's how it feels to those of us that LIVE this trade and have careers built around it. I spend nearly all waking hours involved in nearly every aspect of the trade. You, dabble.....you have to know how annoying that is when you actually have very little clue what your talking about. You belittle us with you lack of knowledge!@!

Rather then answer him, why not take a stab at what I asked you?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, let us hear from the importers, eh

And just what do you think Dave does, wash dishes? Try visiting his place, they're always active and my personal favorite as well as my first stop on 104th...nice, clean and quality livestock!!! He's got quite a crew there, always happy when I go by. Although I did smash my finger out in his parking lot once, some dude zipped by in a Lotus or something and I dropped a rock on my hand while gawking :lol:

While I haven't brought a shipment in myself in a few years, you kinda never leave once you are in. I keep getting pulled back quite often

What about the place your son was working at? Have you convinced them and if not what was their reason? I'm sure you're asking elsewhere then just in vapor space. What's the word on the ground?

Just in case you can't read that many posts up, here's my questions to you one more time

 

[Anonymous]

Naesco,

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread.

Unfortunately, with absolutely zero past or current involvement in the trade of marine ornamentals there are some folks here is this community that might take your comments somewhat lightly.

I respect your efforts and hope that you continue to stay involved. All good teams have people cheering for them on the sidelines, out of play.

Warmest regards

Instead of questioning my committment and involvement in the industry and hobby, why don't you gather the courage to post your credentials in the "Industry Who's Who thread at the beginning of the forum as I and others have done.

Thank you
Wayne Ryan

The 'whos who' thread is not in any way a necessity or requirement people need to post to in order to participate in the discussion on this forum.

 

[naesco]

:lol: your so naive, you make me feel like I'm older then you and needing to guide you

Just committing in print isn't enough Wayne. They all signed the MAC petition a while back but almost none actually supported MAC when it came down to getting certified . What makes you think if they say YES online that they won't just keep on going doping the same ol same ol?

I wish it where just as easy as everyone posting yes and actually following through with it, I really do.

I was blown away they didn't make CITES, what a sham!!!!

I feel the same as you do Gresham. So about this, you agree to get on the phone and seek a committment from importers in California. You know them all. I will try to do the same in Vancouver. A deal?

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: your so naive, you make me feel like I'm older then you and needing to guide you

Just committing in print isn't enough Wayne. They all signed the MAC petition a while back but almost none actually supported MAC when it came down to getting certified . What makes you think if they say YES online that they won't just keep on going doping the same ol same ol?

I wish it where just as easy as everyone posting yes and actually following through with it, I really do.

I was blown away they didn't make CITES, what a sham!!!!

I feel the same as you do Gresham. So about this, you agree to get on the phone and seek a committment from importers in California. You know them all. I will try to do the same in Vancouver. A deal?

You feel naive?

One CA importer just weighed in, did yo read his comments?

 

[naesco]

Yes I did and I am looking forward to more if you would just quit hogging the tread.
Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Hogging the tread? Explain this to me? IN all my years on internet forums never once have I heard of a concept of hogging a thread...seriously.

If there where going to be more, they'd have been posted by now

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Jeeze...another thread strayed afar from its humble beginnings...lol

The discussion continues. Be sure to see Bob Fenner's letter posted in response to Matt's blog entry about Eric B's call to boycott. To wit:

Boycott? Bah.
Re Boycotting the Wild Banggai Cardinalfish

This species is not threatened in the wild.

In diving in and around the Banggai Islands for decades, seeing Pterapogon having been intentionally spread widely around Sulawesi (a massive island of some 73,000 square miles), and become resident along much of its shores, I can assure you that this fish is more than plentiful in its previous limited range, as well as where it has been transplanted.

Testimony to its unthreatened status is also the fact that this fish is offered by Indonesian culturists and collectors outside the area for 10-25 cents per specimen (FOB Indo.) in six-hundred-lot pricing...

Lastly, a comment re misleading, okay, lying with statistics...

... the numbers for specimens reportedly collected are for a period of years, whereas the population number given is static; i.e. there is no descriptive data offered for recruitment, optimum or sustainable yields, or even guesses as to such.

Robert M. Fenner,
San Diego, CA

Also some follow-up thoughts in "Banggai Boycott or Bluster?"

http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/ret_tal ... rdina.html