Borneman calls for boycott on wild Banggai cardinals

[Anonymous]

There were gillions of them in Lembah this summer.

 

[clarionreef]

Ret said;

The real risk in my mind of focusing too much industry energy and resources on the Banggai cardinalfish issue is that it diverts our attention away from other issues which arguably need more attention and are having a greater impact on ecosystems. While the Banggai cardinalfish may get the air time and be more “sexy” than discussing the down and dirty of destructive fishing practices, we absolutely must take it upon ourselves as an industry to keep our eyes on the big picture.

Well very well put.

Catching banggais and so many other fishes in Sulawesi Seas with poisons is an ecological issue with larger implications but will always be trumped by the smaller scope, simpler, more charasmatic issues.
This is because simplified, downsized , more personal issues are easier to digest and pose for .

I am sure the incidental, by-catch mortalities of banggai cardinals, especially their larvae exceed the actual export amount. Poisoning them makes them release and lose all their incubatiing eggs right away not to mention the larvae they hide in their mouths.
An inventory of lost fishes thru destructive methods would be huge.

To tip-toe thru the vast Indonesian cyanide trade and selectively remove just the banggais as an issue for special concern seems very arbitrary.

Blue tangs have been decimated in hundreds of reefs thru out S.E.Asia and never got his kind of special mention.

If the cause of the banggais were to hilight the institutionally destructive ornamental fishery in Indoesia...then all right then.
If they were to be a chosen poster fish against the cyanide trade...very good!
But if they are to stand only for themselves because they are a favorite of charismatically concerned conservationists...uh uh. It smacks of manufactured alarm for subjective purposes.
Steve

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Gayatri has talked about the BCF being a poster fish for Indonesia, and I know a major thrust of LINI's training program is reducing destructive fishing practices through training in non-destructive techniques.

"The BCF will be the flagship species for the trade here in Indonesia, and the current work on the species will provide a model for the development of management plans for other highlighted species of marine aquarium fishes." - Gayatri Reksodihardjo, LINI

Given that the momentum is there on the BCF issue, LINI's work with the BCF can be used to address larger-ranging and more substantial issues (albeit "less cute"...lol) than the BCF.

 

[reefreef]

This species is not threatened in the wild.

In diving in and around the Banggai Islands for decades, seeing Pterapogon having been intentionally spread widely around Sulawesi (a massive island of some 73,000 square miles), and become resident along much of its shores, I can assure you that this fish is more than plentiful in its previous limited range, as well as where it has been transplanted.

Collection should be stopped as they are being collected by the thousand and most of them die due to some disease,

I have imported over a 1000 from various exporters and generally I get then same result that they die within a few weeks with some disease.

I say stop the collect as it is pointless collecting them.

 

[Anonymous]

This species is not threatened in the wild.

In diving in and around the Banggai Islands for decades, seeing Pterapogon having been intentionally spread widely around Sulawesi (a massive island of some 73,000 square miles), and become resident along much of its shores, I can assure you that this fish is more than plentiful in its previous limited range, as well as where it has been transplanted.

Regarding this - any science? Or, is it just opinion? Seems like opinion and seems different from the conclusions that banggai researchers like Dr. Alejandro A. Vagelli report.

 

[Anonymous]

Collection should be stopped as they are being collected by the thousand and most of them die due to some disease

Just a silly thought here...Banggais seem to like hanging out near host anemones in the wild and captivity, and anecdotal evidence suggests that some host anemones have some remarkable antiviral properties. If it's suspected that a viral disease is causing their demise, does it seem worth it to try keeping them near anemones to see if anything changes? I doubt that in the COC that any Banggai is anywhere near an anemone at all for weeks at a time. Anyone?

 

[dizzy]

I tend to agree with Dave Palmer that it is probably more of a handling issue than anything else. A 10cent fish don't get a lot of love in this industry, when it coming to shipping and handling.

Testimony to its unthreatened status is also the fact that this fish is offered by Indonesian culturists and collectors outside the area for 10-25 cents per specimen (FOB Indo.) in six-hundred-lot pricing...

Regardless of needless high mortality, the fact that they are still being sold so cheap after all these years must surely mean they very plentiful. When Banggai breakdown it usually happens in the first week or so after arriving IME. The Banggai I get from Dave generally have a very good survival rate when placed in regular fish holding systems without anemones present. The Banggai from some of the other 104th street wholesalers generally break down very quickly in the same system, with some actually coming in dead in the bag. Needless to say I now limit my purchases to Dave if I have need for wild Banggai, but we have quite a few were are rearing in the store these days.
Mitch

 

[JeremyR]

I've been saying this for a couple of years.. I believe the banggai cardinal issue is purely political. Simple economics will tell you the answer.. the more rare something gets, the more expensive it gets. Yet in the last few years, the price of this fish has gone much lower to the point that it's one of the least expensive fish wholesale you can buy. If we were truly running out of them, it would be impossible to keep the price so low. People who keep pushing this bandwagon agenda need to take off their green hats for a minute and apply some logical thinking. Now if some logical thought was applied to the handling of these fish, and we quit killing them all.. then we wouldn't be harvesting as many and wasting a resource.

Having said that, it's extremely rare that I buy wild cardinals.. it's been quite a long time since I have. We are blessed with a good local supply, and they don't die. Yes, the price is much higher, but it's worth it.

 

[Anonymous]

People who keep pushing this bandwagon agenda need to take off their green hats for a minute and apply some logical thinking. Now if some logical thought was applied to the handling of these fish, and we quit killing them all.. then we wouldn't be harvesting as many and wasting a resource.

That seems like two different groups of people. Those that want to make sure the fish are not over collected, and those that want to make money collecting the fish. The links of the COC seem to often not care what happens to the animals once they move down the chain and seem unwilling to spend more resources on animals that leave their hands alive. Further, changing handling procedures along the initial links of the COC has been nearly impossible in the past, so I guess I can understand why some may not be interested in putting effort in that direction.

I am all for good handling, as are we all, I am just not sure how to make it a reality in the same way I am not sure how consumers are supposed to be able to tell what fish are juiced or not. For me most of the stuff we talk about on this forum becomes an issue of practicality of application, and there seems to be no mechanism or answer for that issue.

 

[PeterIMA]

Since the MAC announced they were going to make the Banggai Cardinal their poster-child, they should implement trainings in better collection, handling, and shipping procedures. They could also work to help implement the recommendations made by Dr. Vagelli (and others) to reduce overfishing and habitat destruction, and to help implement MPAs (where appropriate).

Peter

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Since the MAC announced they were going to make the Banggai Cardinal their poster-child, they should implement trainings in better collection, handling, and shipping procedures. They could also work to help implement the recommendations made by Dr. Vagelli (and others) to reduce overfishing and habitat destruction, and to help implement MPAs (where appropriate).

Peter

Hey, Peter. I just want to make sure I'm being clear here. If you are referring to what I quoted about the BCF "flagship/poster-child" status (to wit: "The BCF will be the flagship species for the trade here in Indonesia, and the current work on the species will provide a model for the development of management plans for other highlighted species of marine aquarium fishes."), that was not the MAC per se, rather it was LINI. LINI does have a stated committment to training collectors and exporters on the ground in Indonesia. From what I have been told, LINI is focused on a compehensive management plan aimed, in part, to reduce overfishing and habitat destruction. The draft management plan is scheduled for review in November '08, although I know there have been some funding challenges (lol...that's a sjhocker, eh?).

It is also my understanding that the Banggai district government established a number of "marine conservation areas" in 2007. As of yet these MPAs are not functional yet, I don't think, but that's on LINI's radar as well. I have posted the most recent update fro LINI over on the Banggai Update thread I began. You can also find it here: http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/ret_talbot/2008/09/banggai-cardi-1.html

 

[Ret_Talbot]

I've been saying this for a couple of years.. I believe the banggai cardinal issue is purely political. Simple economics will tell you the answer.. the more rare something gets, the more expensive it gets. Yet in the last few years, the price of this fish has gone much lower to the point that it's one of the least expensive fish wholesale you can buy. If we were truly running out of them, it would be impossible to keep the price so low. People who keep pushing this bandwagon agenda need to take off their green hats for a minute and apply some logical thinking.

Interesting. So do you discount Vagelli's data and the IUCN Red List listing the BCF as endangered based on Vagelli's (and others) data? Do you think that CITES had it right on the science when they rejected Appendix II status saying the BCF did not meet the biological criteria for Appendix II listing? The Panal wrote:

"The information provided in the proposal to support inclusion did not demonstrate a decline to criterion levels for population size. Although one subpopulation has been extirpated there was no evidence of decline in area of occurrence or number of subpopulations to criterion levels. Recent harvest levels are compatible with productivity although there are risk factors. International trade is the major factor driving exploitation of this species."

There are those who feel that Vagelli's work was slighted by CITES based on politics, but you seem to be suggesting--based on the fish's price point--the opposite. I'mnot so sure that it's always a "green hat." There are those that would suggest working toward a sustainabe wild population of Banggai cardinalfish to supply a robust and sustainable marine aquarium industry was not wholly green. Thoughts?

 

[Ret_Talbot]

This species is not threatened in the wild.

In diving in and around the Banggai Islands for decades, seeing Pterapogon having been intentionally spread widely around Sulawesi (a massive island of some 73,000 square miles), and become resident along much of its shores, I can assure you that this fish is more than plentiful in its previous limited range, as well as where it has been transplanted.

Regarding this - any science? Or, is it just opinion? Seems like opinion and seems different from the conclusions that banggai researchers like Dr. Alejandro A. Vagelli report.

Fenner's letter appears to be anecdotal, but I know he has thought through the fisheries science part of it as well. Yes, it is very different from Vagelli's data and, apparently, the information being collected in Indonesia at present by LINI. As an aside, the Banggai fisheries district has collected six months’ worth of harvest data, and we should expect a review of the harvest figures and potential quotas by the end of 2008.

 

[Anonymous]

This species is not threatened in the wild.

In diving in and around the Banggai Islands for decades, seeing Pterapogon having been intentionally spread widely around Sulawesi (a massive island of some 73,000 square miles), and become resident along much of its shores, I can assure you that this fish is more than plentiful in its previous limited range, as well as where it has been transplanted.

Regarding this - any science? Or, is it just opinion? Seems like opinion and seems different from the conclusions that banggai researchers like Dr. Alejandro A. Vagelli report.

Fenner's letter appears to be anecdotal, but I know he has thought through the fisheries science part of it as well. Yes, it is very different from Vagelli's data and, apparently, the information being collected in Indonesia at present by LINI. As an aside, the Banggai fisheries district has collected six months’ worth of harvest data, and we should expect a review of the harvest figures and potential quotas by the end of 2008.

I heard about that data a couple weeks ago, I'll be very interested to read it.
I think the anecdotal stuff at the level Fenner is using it needs to go away, as it hurts the discussion as a whole. If we are going to try to make policy it needs to be based on science, not on what people see diving.

I also think the issue is further confused by the different sub populations. As I understand, Vagelli is studying the areas around Banggai, which could very easily be different from the areas around Lembah which seems to be reflected by the CITIES rejection.

 

[PeterIMA]

PeterIMA wrote:
Since the MAC announced they were going to make the Banggai Cardinal their poster-child, they should implement trainings in better collection, handling, and shipping procedures. They could also work to help implement the recommendations made by Dr. Vagelli (and others) to reduce overfishing and habitat destruction, and to help implement MPAs (where appropriate).

Peter

Hey, Peter. I just want to make sure I'm being clear here. If you are referring to what I quoted about the BCF "flagship/poster-child" status (to wit: "The BCF will be the flagship species for the trade here in Indonesia, and the current work on the species will provide a model for the development of management plans for other highlighted species of marine aquarium fishes."), that was not the MAC per se, rather it was LINI. LINI does have a stated committment to training collectors and exporters on the ground in Indonesia. From what I have been told, LINI is focused on a compehensive management plan aimed, in part, to reduce overfishing and habitat destruction. The draft management plan is scheduled for review in November '08, although I know there have been some funding challenges (lol...that's a sjhocker, eh?).

It is also my understanding that the Banggai district government established a number of "marine conservation areas" in 2007. As of yet these MPAs are not functional yet, I don't think, but that's on LINI's radar as well. I have posted the most recent update fro LINI over on the Banggai Update thread I began. You can also find it here: http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/ret_tal ... rdi-1.html

While I understand that Gayatri now represents LINI, she was closely associated with the MAC and still advocates MAC Certification. While I wish her the best, I am opposed to MAC Certification as it is presently formulated.

I am in favor of the implementation of MPAs as part of a larger spatial strategy. New laws passed by the Indonesian government through Marine Affairs and Fisheries can allow for zoning and spatial management.

Peter

 

[dizzy]

I think the anecdotal stuff at the level Fenner is using it needs to go away, as it hurts the discussion as a whole. If we are going to try to make policy it needs to be based on science, not on what people see diving.

Wow Rich I think you just blew part of the Reef Check plan out of the water with that one.

 

[naesco]

Why do we have to have a science approach here.

1. Borneman and others feel they are under threat.
2. The species can be aqua-cultured here or at site.
3. Wild species often suffer from disease and there is a high DOA rate.
4. Aqua cultured species survive in hobbyist's tanks.

Simple!!! Stop the import of wild species. End of story.

 

[Ret_Talbot]

While I understand that Gayatri now represents LINI, she was closely associated with the MAC and still advocates MAC Certification. While I wish her the best, I am opposed to MAC Certification as it is presently formulated.

I am in favor of the implementation of MPAs as part of a larger spatial strategy. New laws passed by the Indonesian government through Marine Affairs and Fisheries can allow for zoning and spatial management.

Peter

I understand, Peter. While I appreciate the challenges that any relationship between LINI and MAC (perceived or real) will have for those who have given up all hope for MAC's ability to correct course, I also appreciate the fact that LINI is doing something on the ground that appears to be moving the situation in the right direction and which includes zoning and spatial management as part of the overall management plan. As such, I am watching their progress with interest, and I am only reporting what I learn. Is there another entity currently in a position to address the Banggai situation in a more timely manner besides a boycott? If so, I'd love to follow-up. Thanks

 

[PeterIMA]

It is not clear to me what LINI has been doing. Your posting (cited with a URL on this forum) makes reference to surveys being conducted by Banggai Fisheries Department. Please clarify what is being done by government agencies in the Banggai Islands and what is being done by LINI.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Why do we have to have a science approach here.

1. Borneman and others feel they are under threat.
2. The species can be aqua-cultured here or at site.
3. Wild species often suffer from disease and there is a high DOA rate.
4. Aqua cultured species survive in hobbyist's tanks.

Simple!!! Stop the import of wild species. End of story.

5. BC AC or wild caught, are tough shippers