Who thinks posting success with difficult animals helps

[hdtran]

Market incentives (or disincentives, I suppose). The government doesn't regulate scuba diving, but no scuba outfit rents gear to someone without a PADI or NAUI or YMCA card.

Show me your 'MACO advanced aquarist card', or you can't buy that Heteractamumble latinithing!

 

[Anonymous]

That is why certain species need more control by the government. Some sort of licensing to prevent fragile animals from dieing reefs from ending up in in-adequate hands. How the government could test the skills of any said aquarist, and institute this I don't know but. In the end I am not the type to encourage any help form the government but as long as delicate animals end up in the wrong hands our hobby will have a bad name.

have someone we know go in and test our local retailers. We could rate them on honesty, to critter housing, to equiptment carried and advised to us, as well as courtesy.

We could then link this to the LFS list on this site. If a place continually pushes moorish idols and batfish on you and then says to get a goni for your reef, you can give them a negative rating here. Kind of like a Zagat survey for LFS's. We could even do it for the online retailers as well.

I like that idea!

[/quote]

Our Governement can barely protect it's people, the primary focus of gov't. What makes you think it can do any better with corals? IMHO, its a bad idea to get gov't involved with something so particular. Isn't it true that Hobbyists are doing more to protect than anything else? (I could be wrong here... just think {without any supporting docs :wink: } that is the case).

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

I am against Gov't oversight. I understand if it's a dangerous species, like the blue ringed octpus. Otherwise butt out.

I do believe that a MACO or RDO membership card for certain species would be good. If retailers thought that people are giving them bad ratings on the net, they may just straighten themselves out. Online retailers would definately see the impact when they cruise the BB or maybe even get dropped as a sponsor if they continue the bad practices.

 

[Anonymous]

I am against Gov't oversight. I understand if it's a dangerous species, like the blue ringed octpus. Otherwise butt out.

I do believe that a MACO or RDO membership card for certain species would be good. If retailers thought that people are giving them bad ratings on the net, they may just straighten themselves out. Online retailers would definately see the impact when they cruise the BB or maybe even get dropped as a sponsor if they continue the bad practices.

That would make more sense. Businesses tend to hate bad press. Money talks.
~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

Is ther anyway to have a page created to enhance the LFS page?

I, unfortunately, am just above computer illiteracy. I do not have the skills to do such a thing. It could have a five star rating scheme.

 

[Ben1]

Market incentives (or disincentives, I suppose). The government doesn't regulate scuba diving, but no scuba outfit rents gear to someone without a PADI or NAUI or YMCA card.

Show me your 'MACO advanced aquarist card', or you can't buy that Heteractamumble latinithing!

That is more what I am going for, along with the online vender ratings. Of course who could enforce these cards?

 

[Anonymous]

I think any card like that is a bad idea.

There is no one to enforce them.
There is no one to decide the ratings.
I don't think it is fair to tell other reefers what they can and cannot keep.
Any agency that produces such cards will soon be restricting animals that you or I don't think should be restricted.
LFS will ignore the cards.
You will do more good by making an entry level certification (though I don't think that is a good idea either) than and 'advanced' level of certification.



Also, there are easily a half dozen agencies that give dive certification, they do things differently, and people trained indifferent agencies learn different things stressed differently. They also argue with each other about what is 'correct', and some of their cert cards are not know throughout the world. When it comes down to it, the cert card says nothing about your ability as a diver. I have been in the water with advanced divers who had no idea what they were doing. And, it is sadly pretty easy to find a scuba outfit that rents gear to someone without certification. I don't think scuba is a good model to base anything on.

 

[kim]

I don't know who will pay for the regulation.

On the whole, humans are pretty relaxed about killing animals. Even each other. So killing a few angel fish.....why not ? We keep reef tanks, and there is a serious amount of collateral damage involved here. Would we worry about killing a sardine for our convenience ? Such as to eat because it is tasty ?

With respect to livestock, we have CITES, which is possibly not perfect but will hopefully prevent us from destroying reefs by overcollection.

The good thing about CITES is that it is a blanket ban on importation, something that has a chance of being enforceable. Partly because it is simple, partly because the choice of listed stock is scientific (not without controversy, but rational).

It's "good" law.

kim

 

[Ben1]

I like the idea of a card but thats just me.

it is sadly pretty easy to find a scuba outfit that rents gear to someone without certification.

My last dive trip off Virginia beach no cards we shown even though they supplied the tanks.

I don't think it is fair to tell other reefers what they can and cannot keep.

Seems to me we do this all the time. A newbie post here I have a new tank with NO lighting and am going to buy lots of SPS. I am sure lots of reefers will tell him he can't keep them with the system he has.

There is no one to enforce them...........LFS will ignore the cards.

Of course if there is no one to enforce them they would be ignored.

What I am getting at is no matter what we do now 15-25 years from now this hobby won't be that same. If thing continue this way then the hobbys name will be a very bad one by then with reefers mostly trading frags as wild corals WONT be available. Of course this is my main source for coral now but that besides the point. In 20 years the amount of living wild reefs will be dwindling even further, giving us a much harder time. The sooner this hobby is looked at as the future of our wild reefs re-building the better. I am not saying I am qualified for re-building wild reefs but there will have to be some of this done by some aqariums.

What ever happened to all the corals that were sent to GARF a few years back from reefers to re-populate green nepthea or sinularias in the wild? Anyone know if this ever happened?

 

[Anonymous]

With respect to livestock, we have CITES, which is possibly not perfect but will hopefully prevent us from destroying reefs by overcollection.

The good thing about CITES is that it is a blanket ban on importation, something that has a chance of being enforceable. Partly because it is simple, partly because the choice of listed stock is scientific (not without controversy, but rational).

It's "good" law.

kim

Funny you should mention CITES as they are the people giving HUGE quotas for goni's. Actually, the highest quotas on CITES for all corals are goni's, and by a very wide margin. Yes, science and nature has proven that goni's are far from being depleted and actually litter the sea, but does that mean they should have quotas for there take that are so enormous? The very group you mention is squarely behind the worlds importation of goni's, and they feel fully in the right to do so. They can care less about the care of the animals as long as its sustainable take.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think it is fair to tell other reefers what they can and cannot keep.

Seems to me we do this all the time. A newbie post here I have a new tank with NO lighting and am going to buy lots of SPS. I am sure lots of reefers will tell him he can't keep them with the system he has.

Giving asked for advice is different than forcing that advice on others.

What I am getting at is no matter what we do now 15-25 years from now this hobby won't be that same. If thing continue this way then the hobbys name will be a very bad one by then with reefers mostly trading frags as wild corals WONT be available. Of course this is my main source for coral now but that besides the point. In 20 years the amount of living wild reefs will be dwindling even further, giving us a much harder time. The sooner this hobby is looked at as the future of our wild reefs re-building the better. I am not saying I am qualified for re-building wild reefs but there will have to be some of this done by some aqariums.

Sadly, I don't think our hobby will have anything to do with the destruction of wild reefs; they are going away without us. While I will be the first to say that our hobby does impact the wild reefs, I will also admit that the impact that our hobby has is a small drop in the bucket when it comes to destruction of reefs. Agriculture, dredging, cement making, construction, pollution and more do so much more damage to the worlds reefs that I almost find the publics attention on our hobby to be laughable. In 20 years stuff won't be available, but it wont be our fault. If the goal is to make sure wild collection is still an option in 20 years, our efforts would be much better spent dealing with the major problems that will continue to effect reefs regardless of our collection and husbandry practices.

 

[Ben1]

I hear ya Righty. It is a sad state. I just want are hobby to have a good name as it should. After all it educates thousands of reefers as to what a reef really is.

I have seen what constuction does on the reefs first hand, talk about turning pristine waters brown.

 

[Len]

Anemonebuff,

It would require another set of software that is much more complicated but it is an interesting idea to explore. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Anonymous]

I just reread my first answer to the question posed in this thread and I thought about and decided to answer it again more bluntly.

Knowledge is power, so I think it helps to post about experiences with difficult animals.

 

[dizzy]

Righty is right on. Frankly I'm a bit surprised that the question would have come from James. Anyone hear of the Scopes Monkey Trial? A high school science teacher was arrested for teaching evolution in the classroom. Education means sharing the facts, not selectively teaching a certain version that appeals to us. I love hearing about people's success with difficult animals. Without people like Dietric Stuber and Peter Wilkens sharing their experiences we would probably still be in the dark ages of reefkeeping. It is our obligation to honestly report our experiences so others can learn. If some of us raise the bar a bit higher than others so be it. Down with the thought police.

 

[Anonymous]

Ive been taught by many teachers who push their thoughts as opposed to the facts. Some things are facts and are to be learned as such.

Many of the top reefers and book writers give you a bit of both. Some fact and some opinion. What makes some better are that they tell you which is fact and which is opinion.

 

[DaisyPolyp]

Anyone hear of the Scopes Monkey Trial? A high school science teacher was arrested for teaching evolution in the classroom. Education means sharing the facts, not selectively teaching a certain version that appeals to us.

...this is very true, but the pendulum swings the other way as well. Remeber that agency called the FTC? they are in existence because of people making false claims about things they invented, or treatments they developed (read - "snake oil" 8O ). The Federal rule is "reasonable evidence must be given before making claims", I don't see why we should settle for any less.

 

[Anonymous]

So who do you suggest should attempt them? Delbeek? Sprung? Fenner? Dr. Ron?

There may be an overabundance of these difficult species, but who's to decide who should keep them or unveil the secrets of success?

I agree with Righty on the cards. So I humbled my self with a quote of myself. If they are not good enough to tell you what to keep then who the hell am I? Or you for that matter. So the card idea IMO is in the toilet.

However, I think the rating idea is a good one.

 

[hdtran]

OK, how about "Show me your Advanced MACO Card" (but don't watch Star Trek ) or we'll charge $385 for that golf-ball sized Goniopora!

 

[Apophis924]

present a card inorder to purchase a difficult/rare animal?? all that does is put money in the pockets of those that issue the cards. I could be dumb and foolsih as a box if rocks and if i pay the right person the right amount of money i can damn well get any type of card i need. Maybe these so called indangered/rare and restricted animals should only be sold to certified representives of commercial and public aquairums and universities. Once we can master captive breeding they can be offred to the main stream. ofcourse the deadly one like the blue rings oct;s and box jelly fish should not be offered to the general public. Then again foolish people have a way of removing themselves from the gene pool sooner or later.