Who thinks posting success with difficult animals helps

[Ben1]

the hobby as a whole?

"Believe me, I am not trying to flame you at all. I'm just airing a frustration that I have w/ the hobby in general. Every time someone starts a goniopora thread, about how there have a <1% success rate, there is always someone who chimes in that they have been keeping them for 2 yrs. Well, I say, "Yeah, thanks a lot buddy! That is so helpful! Do you know why you are successful?" Well....No...

It may give you satisfaction to keep cleaner wrasses and other difficult animals, and it may also give you satisfaction to post your experiences about it. While I agree that it may be all right to do the former, I don't think it helps the hobby to do the latter.

Hope that makes sense.
James Wiseman"



I was justs wandering where he has been (no hammer swinging recently)and saw this on Chuckers website where it can be read in whole. http://reefs.org/ops/chucker/creed.html#JAMES

IMO, posting your full knowledge of the care of certain animals can only help. Are you worried about a bunch of people going out and buying a bunch of goniporas for instance b/c of some one just posting their success and leaving out how they managed that success? Or don't I get it?

 

[Anonymous]

the hobby as a whole?

"Believe me, I am not trying to flame you at all. I'm just airing a frustration that I have w/ the hobby in general. Every time someone starts a goniopora thread, about how there have a <1% success rate, there is always someone who chimes in that they have been keeping them for 2 yrs. Well, I say, "Yeah, thanks a lot buddy! That is so helpful! Do you know why you are successful?" Well....No...

It may give you satisfaction to keep cleaner wrasses and other difficult animals, and it may also give you satisfaction to post your experiences about it. While I agree that it may be all right to do the former, I don't think it helps the hobby to do the latter.

Hope that makes sense.
James Wiseman"

IMO, posting your full knowledge of the care of certain animals can only help. Are you worried about a bunch of people going out and buying a bunch of goniporas for instance b/c of some one just posting their success and leaving out how they managed that success?

I'm not James but I'll attempt to answer your question to the best of my abilities and feelings.
It depends on the thread. If it's to me not a matter where animals are at risk, I'll let it go. I'm old, I've learned to know when to quit, knowing I at least got my point across.
However I feel that many people will only look for the answers they what to see out of a thread and this is dangerous.
This is the internet and no matter what topic is discussed you always have one or two people that always go against the grain of the thread.
If I reply to a post and can convince one person to not buy a high risk animal I feel I've been successful, hopefully others do the same. We can't save 'em all but we can make a dent.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[Anonymous]

There's a lot of boasting that happens on the internet along the lines of: "Well, I've had a Moorish Idol (Or insert any other difficult species) for 2 years now. I consider it fairly easy." End of post.

This doesn't help the hobby.

What does help the hobby is reporting the methods you're using in complete detail if you happen to have luck with a difficult species. This is how the hobby advances, and this is one of the reasons why we can keep things like Acropora sp. alive nowadays. If someone is determined to keep a difficult species, say a feather star, it also helps to know as much detail about the wild biology of these animals as possible--their current, feeding, and other requirements. I get a little annoyed when people ask for advice about a difficult animal and get the reply "leave it in the ocean". Frankly, I don't think such a response is going to stop anyone from purchasing a difficult species. Furthermore, if they've already bought the species, such a response is not going to help them keep it alive at all.

On the other hand, if you've had a fish for less than a year, or any invertebrate for less than two years, I think it's irresponsible to claim that you're having success with it. Invertebrates and fish have incredibly slow metabolisms compared to us, and may take this long to slowly starve to death.

 

[Ben1]

There's a lot of boasting that happens on the internet along the lines of: "Well, I've had a Moorish Idol (Or insert any other difficult species) for 2 years now. I consider it fairly easy." End of post.

This doesn't help the hobby.

However I feel that many people will only look for the answers they what to see out of a thread and this is dangerous.

I agree in this aspect 100%. But It seems to me the same people that will take only the info they want to hear from a post and purchase impossible speices on that, are the same people who buy livestock on a whim at the LFS with out knowing how to care for it. Which makes it seem no matter what is said or not said will still eventually lead to the same purchases. As long as the LFS stock these animals.

On the otherhand this kind of thread usually ends up with (atleast on RDO) many responces why the particulair animal is so hard to keep and as David Morh was saying this may stop some people from going out and buying that animal.

I do see the point that someone shouldn't just claim success for short-term care (1-3 years or so) of their animal with out explaning how much experience they have, ect...[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

My very first aquatic animal of any kind was an octopus. It lived about a week before croaking IIRC. I would have bought that thing even if everyone I talked to had to told me they should be left in the ocean--and that's pretty much what everyone told me. I knew that they could be kept though, because my university had one. The crazy thing was, I did everything right: I had a nice skimmer, activated carbon, live rock and sand, a dim tank, I let the tank cycle for 3 months, it had a covered top...looking back on it, it was the perfect little octopus tank. Only problem was I used tap water instead of RO/DI (not for topoff, but for the initial mix). Most corals and fish can handle my town's tap water, even SPS corals, but octos croak in tap water right quick. Once I made this adjustment, I kept several octos for their entire lifespan.

The point of this long story is that all I needed was someone to tell me, "Hey, make sure you use RO/DI, not tap water" NOT "Leave that thing in the ocean." If it really is an animal that should be left in the ocean, say an ornate butterflyfish or a nurse shark, at least tell the poster WHY you think it should be left in the ocean. A few folks think all tangs should be left in the ocean, or all host anemones should be left in the ocean...as a newbie it's hard to distinguish between these and the bona fide impossible to keep animals.

 

[liquid]

James is out diving in Fiji. He better be bringing back some great pics w/ all the fancy-schmancy photo equipment he has.

Shane

 

[Ben1]

James is out diving in Fiji. He better be bringing back some great pics w/ all the fancy-schmancy photo equipment he has

Oh man now I am jealous! Who do you think will get the pictures first RDO or wetpixel. I'll bet you'll catch them on wetpixel!

 

[liquid]

Considering James volunteers both places, I have no idea. I bet they show up at around the same time -- or on James' http://www.reefpix.org/ website first.

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

You know, Matt, I find your initial foray to be rather interesting. You see, I did exactly the opposite. I was lucky, found an excellent quality shop (ended up working for them for a couple of years), and if I was told not to buy something, I explored the reasons why, and made a decision that was best for the animals. If I was told not to get something, even if I dearly wanted it, I didn't.

As a sales associate at this same shop, I was supported by the owner if I told people not to get something. I developed very strong relationships with my customers, and now, twelve years and one new owner down the road, people still come in asking for me! (Though I'm not the lady with the nosering anymore.)

 

[Anonymous]

"Should be left in the ocean" is a perfectly valid response Matt. I've said it, I will continue to say it. What it means is, that while the animal should not have been purchased, more importantly it should not have been offered for sale. Furthermore, the few successes if any with the animal do not justify it's further collection in the wild. When I say this, it's usually in reference to an organism that the person does not have a chance in hell of keeping. It's meant to discourage others who read the thread from making the mistake of purchasing the animal. A recent conversation on parrotfishes is a good example.

Parrotfish should be left in the ocean, most butterflies should be left in the ocean, most sharks should be left in the ocean, moorish idols should be left in the ocean, many angels should be left in the ocean, etc, etc, on and on...
Are you sufficiently annoyed yet?

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

For me, the addition of 'I think' before 'x should be left in the ocean' make the statement more digestable. Without the 'I think' the statement seems kinda arrogant, and seems to ignore the idea that at one time or another almost all the animals in our tanks would have been better off being left in the ocean.
It is difficult to make strides in husbandry if you get admonsihed for even trying to keep a particular animal.

On the other hand, I do worry that people posting good experiences with hard to keep animals encourages other to keep the animal (You should see the numbers of emails I have been getting asking me where cuttlefish can be bought). The more people have success the more other will want to try. But, is it really fair of me to horde my info on cuttles simply because I have had some success with them? I don't think so, so I do my best to discuss the difficulties in keeping them.
Oh, the train of thought in my head came to an abrubt end! :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm...well when 75 to 100% of certain critters stop dying, I'll start adding the "I think". For now, call me arrogant if you want, but I assure you that's NOT the space that comment comes from, at least when I say it. These are living, breathing animals - not expendible THINGS.

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm...well when 75 to 100% of certain critters stop dying

From a moral perspective, keep in mind that in our aquaria, 100% of all critters die.

But anyway, I think its useful to talk about it, as long as it's informative as Matt mentioned above. A good case in point is in fact Goniopora- there are a number of goni species that do not seem to be all that difficult; if its not discussed people won't know which ones those are.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that some cmments do not help. But when someone posts their experiences and successes it is beneficial. Without someone trying to keep them there would be no future for their place in our aquariums. If we had the never keep this or that we would not even be keeping anemones and SPS corals. Some day,IMO, we will be able to keep goni's and other corals and possibly even propigate them.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that some cmments do not help. But when someone posts their experiences and successes it is beneficial. .

Of course!

Without someone trying to keep them there would be no future for their place in our aquariums. .

There's been thousands of people attempting certain animals, with countless tens of thousand of those animals dying. Where do you draw the line? Some animals will NEVER have a future in our aquariums. It's important to make certain distinctions. Those who's feeding, light or current requirements are not quite understood yet, but may be met with a bit more understanding - and those who's requirements just cannot be met, ( and might even be known) but are still imported. Most individuals of the former group, and every individual of the latter should be left where they are.
I simply can't imagine how completely moraly oblivious someone would have to be to justify a tank full of beaked leatherjackets or moorish idols at an LFS.

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

So who do you suggest should attempt them? Delbeek? Sprung? Fenner? Dr. Ron?

There may be an overabundance of these difficult species, but who's to decide who should keep them or unveil the secrets of success?

 

[Anonymous]

I know what you're saying, and it depends on what organisms you speak of. I'd rather see certain things (gonipora, dendronepthya, etc) in the hands of the people you mentioned (among others, Borneman for instance) rather than the ignorant masses.
As for the other critters, those people are smart enough to avoid them, and I guarantee you they think much as I do regarding where they should, or should not be. If you don't believe me, ask them. :wink:

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Many things have been discovered through mistakes, sometimes by novices. The more who test there hands at it the better shot we have at keeping these specimens.

I was keeping anemones without problems and the mantra here and the other BBs said they shouldn't be kept. I am not saying I'm soley responsible for sucessful anemone keeping. However I feel I contributed to information network on how they should be kept. When I first began posting here many, if not most people had your stance on anemone keeping. Now many of us here are housing anemones without problems. If the others and myself listened to folks like you we would be boycotting anemones and not keeping them in our tanks.

 

[Anonymous]

I remember this, and I remember your posts! Your point is well taken. There are still anemones who's survival rate in captivity does not justify their futher collection however. There are corals who's survival rate does not justify their futher collection, although some may do fine for a while.
Can you justify the collection obligate spongivores, or obligate coralivores? I think not. This is the class of animals that I have the most problem with.

Jim