Plumbing for Newbies

[jejton]

I have decided that when I move, which will be soon enough, I want to graduate from my 12NC to a larger system with a sump and/or refugium. My main problem, at least now, is that I am lost in all the discussions about plumbing. All of the threads and sites I have found assume that you know at least the basics, which I dont. Can anyone point me in the direction of some sites or threads that start from the basics, at least as far as plumbing.

Thanks

 

[masterswimmer]

jejton, welcome to MR.
We've got a lot of very helpful and experienced aquarists here. Asking an open ended question like you did can get unbelievably complicated. It would be much easier if you narrowed it down a bit.

For instance, plumbing your sump to your display tank with a return pump. Or, plumbing the fuge to your display or to your sump. Or running a separate media chamber for carbon or phosphate removal.

I don't mean to be evasive, it's just that each one of these things require a lot of detail. The beginning can be very convoluted. Are you planning on a reef ready (RR) tank or a standard siphon/overflow type setup?

We're here to help, and not scare you away. I just don't know which direction to start.

swimmer

 

[michaelp]

Plumbing for Dummies = DEEPWATER

 

[Reefer420]

if i can jump in and ask a beg. plumbing question...

why go PVC? Is there a real reason for it, or is it just b/c it looks cleaner? I know its prob. more practical if you have longer distances to move water to/from, but I've seen some pretty heavy PVC work done on 20g tanks over at nano-reef...

 

[alrha]

Plumbing for Dummies = DEEPWATER

you mean plumbing BY Dummies? he he, :joke: i better be careful or he'll sabotage my tank next time he comes over...

 

[masterswimmer]

why go PVC? Is there a real reason for it, or is it just b/c it looks cleaner?

I never mentioned going with PVC. My system is plumbed with flexible vinyl tubing. Much more forgiving IMO. So in answer to your Q, people tend to think like you, it looks cleaner. I don't see a need for it.

swimmer

 

[jejton]

I plan on buying a rr tank because I gather that they are easier to work with. I dont want to do deal with drilling since I dont have the tools or the experience. As for what I want to plumb, well I guess the overflows to the sump and possibly a refugium. I dont know enough to decide if I want them plumbed serially or in parallel, though I'm pretty sure if I go with a fuge, it will be downstream. But as far as choosing pipe sizes, bulkheads, pumps, flowrates, etc. I'm at a loss. I have yet to find a source that starts at the beginning. Everything I've found assumes you know the basics and just gives additional advice, designs, etc.

 

[masterswimmer]

If you're planning on going with a tank in the range of 75 gallons RR, they normally come predrilled with two holes in the boxed in overflow. The two holes are normally drilled for a 1" bulkhead and a 3/4" bulkhead.

The 1" bulkhead is for your overflow.
The 3/4" bulkhead is for your return.

1" bulkheads are designed to handle 600 gph max. Therefore, your overflow will always be able to handle more than your return. This is designed to avert any potential flooding.

We can start with this. Hopefully this is as basic as you need to know. If you need info 'before' this, LMK.

swimmer

 

[scarf_ace1981]

jejton- i am in no way an expert plumber. it would help if we knew more or less how much bigger you were planning to go. plumbing a 40br is a little less than say a 90 or 120. i had the same questions when i started out. i'm sure the closed loop and all the other gadgets people put on their tanks throw you off. that is until you become more aquainted w/ and see some set ups up close.

it's simple though. first question you want to ask yourself is do i want a reef ready set up or not. i personally did not go that route as i didn't have the proper tools to cut holes in my tank. if you are not ready to go reef ready then a simple overflow box will take care of the drain part. then you could plumb your return pump(in the sump) to two outlets(one on each side of the tank. for this part i used siphon tubes plumbed to pvc from the return pump. the siphon tubes just hang on the back of the tank. no need for me to make hole. i would advice you be very careful if using vynil tubing. this is how i started out and had to change because i was having leaks all the time. don't get me wrong many have used vynil and have no problems w/ leaks. it all depends on how much time you put into it.

if you go reef ready(RR) then it's a little different. you could have one or two drains into the sump. and two to four returns. the closed loop part is just a way of creating more flow inthe tank. it's usually plumbed to a squid(flow alternator) and to a pump. the closed loop(CL) is usually placed in the middle.

 

[Reefer420]

scarf_ace - how do you prevent flooding w/ an external overflow? Is there a way to stop the siphon in case of a power outage?

 

[scarf_ace1981]

well if there's a power outage then the sump sould be able to hold some of the water that is drained from the display. you can make a small hole on the overflow u-tube so that it cuts the siphon effect once the water gets too low in your display.

if i shut my return pump off then the display begins to drain into my sump. the overflow stops flowing once the water stops going ito the preskimmer overflow box. i wish i could say the same about my returns. luckily they are @ the top of the tanks so once air goes in it stops siphoning also.

 

[DevIouS]

well if there's a power outage then the sump sould be able to hold some of the water that is drained from the display. you can make a small hole on the overflow u-tube so that it cuts the siphon effect once the water gets too low in your display.

if i shut my return pump off then the display begins to drain into my sump. the overflow stops flowing once the water stops going ito the preskimmer overflow box. i wish i could say the same about my returns. luckily they are @ the top of the tanks so once air goes in it stops siphoning also.

The holes should be on the return tubes.....

 

[masterswimmer]

The holes should be on the return tubes.....

The holes should be on any tube that can create a siphon, return and/or overflow.

If you haven't purchased a tank yet, do yourself a major favor, DON'T EVEN LOOK AT NON REEF READY TANKS. There is no reason whatsoever to even consider a non RR tank. If you have one already then you need to take the necessary precautions to prevent flooding and siphon breaks.

Be sure to purchase a sump large enough to handle any backflow from your main tank in a power outage. Many times standing in front of a running system and talking to the owner about it will help it all make sense. We have numerous members who would be willing to give a demonstration to you, I am one of them. Only thing is, I live a bit out of the area. If you'd like to check it out, LMK and we can work something out.

It's not nearly as difficult as it looks. It just requires a bit of 'flow chart' thnking.

swimmer

 

[DevIouS]

The holes should be on any tube that can create a siphon, return and/or overflow.

If you haven't purchased a tank yet, do yourself a major favor, DON'T EVEN LOOK AT NON REEF READY TANKS. There is no reason whatsoever to even consider a non RR tank. If you have one already then you need to take the necessary precautions to prevent flooding and siphon breaks.

Be sure to purchase a sump large enough to handle any backflow from your main tank in a power outage. Many times standing in front of a running system and talking to the owner about it will help it all make sense. We have numerous members who would be willing to give a demonstration to you, I am one of them. Only thing is, I live a bit out of the area. If you'd like to check it out, LMK and we can work something out.

It's not nearly as difficult as it looks. It just requires a bit of 'flow chart' thnking.

swimmer

Can you elaborate on the U-tube hole Russ...


From my experience, the holes are on my return pipes.
I made it high enough, so when siphon breaks, my main display will not go under a certain level.....
I am one of those that has a small sump which would not be able to handle alot of backflow.
My drilled returns solved that problem for me.

 

[masterswimmer]

Phil, what about the hole at the top of the U-tube. If air gets sucked into the U-tube can't you lose siphon that way too? I've never used an external overflow, but the physics of it would lead me to believe that you have to have a 'bleeder' hole at the apex of the U-tube to allow air to escape.

swimmer

 

[DevIouS]

There is no hole in the U-tube of Amiracle overflows that I have used (or other standard U-tubes, that I know of).
There have been mods done to U-tubes (drilled), to have them work similar to CPR over-flows (to have a continuous siphon, with a power head or Aqualifter pump).

I don't see how drilling a hole in a the U-tube itself, will stop the amount of backflow into a sump as Scarf stated..
If siphon breaks in the overflow, the water will still flow down the returns.
That is where the hole comes in.

 

[masterswimmer]

I don't see how drilling a hole in a the U-tube itself, will stop the amount of backflow into a sump as Scarf stated..
If siphon breaks in the overflow, the water will still flow down the returns.
That is where the hole comes in.

The hole in the U-tube is just another concern of overflows. External overflows are just another place for air to accumulate and break the siphon.

I'm just trying to explain the various 'issues' with external overflows and tout the benefits and advantages of purchasing a RR tank. No matter which way you slice it, a RR tank is easier to control than a non RR tank. Keep in mind the nature of this thread. jejton has no clue about plumbing so offering him some advice about which tank to start with is my intent.

:flower:
swimmer

 

[DevIouS]

Agreed!

But you corrected me first...:tongue1:

 

[scarf_ace1981]

guys i meant to say 'a whole on the ruturns'. i don't think one is needed on the u tube since water won't flow into it once it stops going into the preskimmer box. you could put one on the u tube if you wanted to anyway.

 

[tomzpc]

A u-tube overflow will NEVER lose siphon as long as the main return pump isn't too weak which can lead to not enough flow through the u-tube and the chance for an air pocket to build up. I used an amiracle overflow for years without ever having any air pocket whatsoever. As long as the flow is there, they can't fail UNLESS something were to clog the tube. I've heard of people saying that they had a snail crawl into the u-tube but that never happened to me. I suppose though that it is possible. A section of eggcrate over the overflow box will prevent this possibility if it is a concern.

Stay away from CPR overflows (the wide channel kind). They inevitably collect air pockets and require a pump or venturi powerhead to remove this air. I had two floods in one year with one of these overflows. Avoid them like the plague. Amiracle/Lifereef style overflows are great though.

I'm not a big fan of "reef ready" tanks because that huge top to bottom overflow takes up way too much real estate in the tank. Myself, and several others that I know, just have a pair of holes drilled near the top of the tank (one on each side in the back) with a 90 PVC and a strainer on top. You get good overflow/surface skimming without haing a huge box inside the tank. Most LFS seem to run their setups this way.