Looking to start a Mix

[steve0199us]

Hi, I've been lurking and reading up the past couple of weeks. So much to soak in. I've kept fresh water aquariums for most of my life and always wanted to do a saltwater tank. I finally decided to put time and effort into converting an existing 75 gal to saltwater. But before I do, just want to take my time and get things right the first time around. There are many different setups and equipment I see, some thrive more than others.

Due to space constraints. I will not have a sump. I have two 75gal and two 150gal tanks stacked on two stands, so a sump is not an option as this tank will be on the top. My questions is, what equipment/setup do you suggest would work in a sumpless setup?

I believe I need a RO/DI, Protein skimmer, external hob refugium, hob aquaclear 110, heater, LR, 2-3inches of live sand.. Anything else/specifix brands/models? Ideally I'd like to keep community tank of fish, inverts, corals and maybe a clam. My price range is in not too high and not too low, would like to get affordable equipment that would not break the bank and would contribute to a thriving tank. I have a 45gallon rubbermaid that would be used to cycle water for the weekly/bi-weekly WC. Thanks

 

[Cu455]

You can modify you aquaclear and use that as a fuge. If you get a hang on back fuge you can use the aquaclear as a reactor. You don't need live sand. You will want a powerhead or 2. If you want to keep it low cost look into sun sun or aquatop powerheads. Lots of people don't use RODI and have great tanks. For a skimmer you will need a hob one or external one. The most expensive thing you will probably buy is lights. You can just google t5 vs LEDs and read everyone's opinion.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi, I've been lurking and reading up the past couple of weeks. So much to soak in. I've kept fresh water aquariums for most of my life and always wanted to do a saltwater tank. I finally decided to put time and effort into converting an existing 75 gal to saltwater. But before I do, just want to take my time and get things right the first time around. There are many different setups and equipment I see, some thrive more than others.

Due to space constraints. I will not have a sump. I have two 75gal and two 150gal tanks stacked on two stands, so a sump is not an option as this tank will be on the top. My questions is, what equipment/setup do you suggest would work in a sumpless setup?

I believe I need a RO/DI, Protein skimmer, external hob refugium, hob aquaclear 110, heater, LR, 2-3inches of live sand.. Anything else/specifix brands/models? Ideally I'd like to keep community tank of fish, inverts, corals and maybe a clam. My price range is in not too high and not too low, would like to get affordable equipment that would not break the bank and would contribute to a thriving tank. I have a 45gallon rubbermaid that would be used to cycle water for the weekly/bi-weekly WC. Thanks

I can almost remember the excitement of my first salt water aquarium.

Here is an artcle that focuses on the total organic carbon (TOC) for many different types of salt water set ups. The take home message is that aquarists are achieving good water quality without a protein skimmer. Take a look before committing. I think the renegades on this forum will also give you some other "off center" view points on set ups.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

Have fun!

Dan

 

[beerfish]

I personally wouldn't even consider a 75g reef tank without a sump. It can be done, but it's much more difficult and something I wouldn't advise for a beginner.

If you go ahead with it, you may want to look into keeping a bare bottom tank to help keep cleanup easier and nutrient levels lower. You're going to need to do frequent, substantial water changes, and you'll want a strong, chaotic flow to keep detritus from building in the rocks.

 

[salpet]

i would convert your lower 75 gall tank into your sump and then you would not have to worry about all the problems associated with a sumpless tank and you have enough space in there for a kick *** refugium

 

[steve0199us]

You can modify you aquaclear and use that as a fuge. If you get a hang on back fuge you can use the aquaclear as a reactor. You don't need live sand. You will want a powerhead or 2. If you want to keep it low cost look into sun sun or aquatop powerheads. Lots of people don't use RODI and have great tanks. For a skimmer you will need a hob one or external one. The most expensive thing you will probably buy is lights. You can just google t5 vs LEDs and read everyone's opinion.

Yes, I do have an existing AC110 that I would be modifying and the HOB huge is def something I want to add with the 125. I did not think about going bare bottom though. Would you suggest this for ease of keeping the tank cleaner? I am still reading up on the RO/DI unit, but see people experience a good initial 4-6 months and get hit with an algae bloom. NYC water is one of the best, but I don't know if it's good enough to avoid the potential headaches, although, I want to keep the maintenance as simple as possible.

 

[steve0199us]

i would convert your lower 75 gall tank into your sump and then you would not have to worry about all the problems associated with a sumpless tank and you have enough space in there for a kick *** refugium

Ahh, no, this is not an option, the two stands and two sets of tanks are on opposite sides of my basement wall.

 

[steve0199us]

I can almost remember the excitement of my first salt water aquarium.

Here is an artcle that focuses on the total organic carbon (TOC) for many different types of salt water set ups. The take home message is that aquarists are achieving good water quality without a protein skimmer. Take a look before committing. I think the renegades on this forum will also give you some other "off center" view points on set ups.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

Have fun!

Dan

Hi Dan- Thank you for the link, I will have a read tomorrow. I was thinking about skimmer less as well, but the consensus seems like it is a required piece to the environment. Have you had positive experience without one? I'd like to hear what kind of equipment and setup you have, maintenance schedule? I had a brand new 14gal nano I just sold, it was an impulse purchase, but after doing all the reading, I just decided to go big or go home with the 125. Only problem or obstacle, I'm limited to go the no sump route. I don't mind the water changes, as I have a python and huge rubbermaid to store water if necessary.

 

[steve0199us]

I personally wouldn't even consider a 75g reef tank without a sump. It can be done, but it's much more difficult and something I wouldn't advise for a beginner.

If you go ahead with it, you may want to look into keeping a bare bottom tank to help keep cleanup easier and nutrient levels lower. You're going to need to do frequent, substantial water changes, and you'll want a strong, chaotic flow to keep detritus from building in the rocks.

yes, YES! there is hope! I didn't consider bare bottom before, but something I will def think about now. I really want the reef type of look, maybe I would do a really thin layer, I agree on the flow of water, this I would over kill. Right now, I just have a 125 gal tank that I can convert any day. I definitely want to purchase the equipment once and let the tank run without tweaking it for a couple of months/years

 

[BioMan]

You want to keep a clam in a brand new sump less tank? You gonna need a very good protein skimmer. That's gonna be the most important thing you buy. Then you'll need a lot of patience. I'm not trying to be a ****, I want you to be successful. There is a tank thread you should start on here also, so other people can learn and possibly help you out along the way

 

[steve0199us]

You want to keep a clam in a brand new sump less tank? You gonna need a very good protein skimmer. That's gonna be the most important thing you buy. Then you'll need a lot of patience. I'm not trying to be a ****, I want you to be successful. There is a tank thread you should start on here also, so other people can learn and possibly help you out along the way

All good, I'm not rushing to get all the stock into the tank, I understand it will take time, all I have is time, I have not even started my cycle, I do appreciate the feed back though. After my initial investment, I want to avoid having to contribute more to additional equipment, what kind of hob skimmer would you suggest?

 

[BioMan]

Truthfully I know nothing about HOB skimmers, but I do know that I seen them on my friends tank, but he's also got a lot of different macro algae the water has to go through before it returns to the tank. Also, there's nothing saying you can't glue most SPS to the back wall and let it grow out. If you keep flow throughout your tank (bad stuff suspended in water) it will eventually get skimmed out. Don't follow the 2lb of rock per gal of water rule it's BS

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, I do have an existing AC110 that I would be modifying and the HOB huge is def something I want to add with the 125. I did not think about going bare bottom though. Would you suggest this for ease of keeping the tank cleaner? I am still reading up on the RO/DI unit, but see people experience a good initial 4-6 months and get hit with an algae bloom. NYC water is one of the best, but I don't know if it's good enough to avoid the potential headaches, although, I want to keep the maintenance as simple as possible.

Steve,

I did not run my 40 gallon very long without a skimmer, so, I do not have any worthwhile tales to tell. Since reading your post, I have been thinking what it would be like not having a sump and what it might mean. If I have said anything too far off the mark, the forum members will see to it

Biological Filtration

Even with a sump, I am pretty sure most of the biological filtration (nitrification bacteria) is established in the aquarium on the surfaces of rocks and substrate. Denitrification (removal of nitrates) is handled by anerobic bacteria inside of rocks and sand or by macroalgae. Typically, macroalgae are placed in the sump under lights (refugium) which seems to be a very popular nitrate and phosphate reduction method. Another nitrate reduction method is to add a carbon source such as vodka to pep up the existing denitrication system. So, without a sump, a decent but somewhat limited biological filter can be established and will need to be considered when stocking the aquarium.

Water Treatment Equipment

Without a sump all the equipment will need to be inside the aquarium or hung on the aquarium. With an HOB mechanical filter, this might limit how effectively suspended solid waste is removed, possibly requiring extra weekly maintenance if the aquarium is stocked with fish. For an all coral tank, very effective mechanical filtration might be less important.

HOB protein skimmers are made for larger tanks. Google the topic to find reef forum discussions and product reviews. If you become concerned about having sufficient protein skimming capacity, a second skimmer can be added at a later date when the aquarium bioload increases. If you are performing weekly 10% water changes and have a light bioload, protein skimming might become less important for maintaining water quality.

Not having a sump might limit your options for installing reactors. Aquarists resort to these to reduce dissolved organic compounds (granulated active carbon), and phosphates (granulated ferric oxide). This might not be a big issue if your bioload and biological filter are well matched, although phosphate accumulation could still be a potential issue.

Automatic water addition to replace evaporated water and dosing is usually performed in the sump. A no-sump system might limit the options. The need for dosing depends on the animals you are keeping.

So, as you contemplate your renegade ways, remember that you can break the rules but not the laws of nature

Keep us posted.

Good luck!

Dan

 

[Cu455]

I did not think about going bare bottom though.

I didn't mean bare bottom. I meant you can start off with dead sand. I would recommend sand. It houses a lot of organisms which will feed your coral and fish. Plus picking and hunting for pods and worms give the fish something to do in a boring tank.

I ran both of these tanks skimmerless. I was happen with the results. I never had algae or diatom outbreaks. My nitrates remained low and I have no idea about phosphates I never test them. If you look at my top picture I am running to HOB filters which are suppose to be nitrate factories. On my fish only tank I use a skimmer because I have a large bioload in them. In addition to keeping dissolved oxygen levels high. I wouldn't worry to much about a skimmer now. If you decided you want to add one later you can. If you look at my top picture I am running to HOB filters which are suppose to be nitrate factories.

 

[beerfish]

yes, YES! there is hope! I didn't consider bare bottom before, but something I will def think about now. I really want the reef type of look, maybe I would do a really thin layer, I agree on the flow of water, this I would over kill. Right now, I just have a 125 gal tank that I can convert any day. I definitely want to purchase the equipment once and let the tank run without tweaking it for a couple of months/years

Bare bottom tanks can look like you want, but it takes time. Eventually your bottom glass will be covered in coraline algae and coral. I've seen BB tanks that I'd never know didn't have sand.

An RO/DI is a must. If you're not using a sump, you're already behind the curve. I've run tanks on NYC tap, it's not worth it. It's one of the cheaper pieces of hardware and makes a huge difference.

Like I said, a sumpless, (even skimmer-less) tank can be done, but it takes research and dedication. Do your research and make sure you understand how the biological cycle in a tank works, how nutrients build up, and how much time vs. automation you want to put into it.

When I worked from home, I had a tank that had almost no equipment. I ran some cheap powerheads, MH lights, and had no skimmer or sump. The tank looked great. I regularly tested the water and did small water changes almost daily. When I stopped working at home as frequently, I needed to add better flow, filtration, and automation just to keep up with the change in the way I was maintaining the tank.

 

[steve0199us]

Hi Dan- Thank you for the link the other day, so it is possible to have a successful sumpless tank, I'm sure the harder to keep corals would be a challenge, but there is always hope! I do not mind so much about the maintenance. I currently change about 50% of my tanks now on a weekly basis, so changing 10% on a SW tank would be helping me in a way, but I'm sure there are other chores that would require more time such as testing, cleaning and feeding. I see people mention remora and octupuss skimmers often, I'll continue to read up, but I think simplicity is the way I am heading. In terms of price rage, I know the sky is the limit with all the different equipment. But I'd just like to get something that is sensible and would work without breaking an arm and leg. The tank will be in my basement in the corner, I have 6 inches behind one side and a little over 4 inches on the other, thats my limitation in regards to fitting HOB equipment. An external fuge should fit fine on the front if not on the back.

In regards to lighting, does anyone have any input for an LED to fit a 125? I don't know if I'd want to do 2lbs of LR per gal, I'd rather get rocks I could build and create a couple of tunnels and mini cliffs, so how ever many lbs that would take, that is what I plan to do long term. Sand is a def. addition, I just don't know how deep i'd like to take it.