Possible to use sea water and rocks straight from the ocean?

[denysedar]

I live in Florida - a friend gave us a 29 gallon fish tank which she had used for fresh water and I figured I could convert it to salt water. The kids and I went to get sea water yesterday (and planned to get rocks today). I've been trying to do research on how to begin a reef but so far haven't seen a single person say they started with sea water! In addition, I think I may be WAY over my head here thinking I could convert a fresh water tank to salt. LOL Anyone have any advice (other than to step away from the tank before someone gets hurt?)

 

[wade1]

denysedar... :welcome:

It is entirely possible, however, technically speaking... if you take rock you are doing the illegal dance. I doubt anyone would really care, but it is illegal to harvest rock without a permit in US waters.

That said, I have seen people do it.

As for details... starting with rock from the ocean will mean that you won't have a "cycle" per se. You can basically start adding fish immediately, however, you should add them very slowly at first. Allow the tank to compensate for the increased bioload.

If you are keeping just fish, then the rock (and some sand from the reef if you can manage it... not beach sand!) will serve as part of the filtration. An over the back filter, if you keep it clean and operational (and change carbon every 2-3 weeks) will also work. Lighting doesn't matter a whole lot unless you want to keep corals.

Just keep the temperature stable, replace evaporated water with clean RO/DI water and do regular water changes with seawater (you will have to get this from a clean site).

Wade

 

[denysedar]

Hi Wade,
Thanks for the info!! It's GREATLY appreciated - but I have a question - why no beach sand?? That was the other thing on my list to get while we got rocks. And so it is illegal for me to get rocks from the beach?? We have several artifical jetties (to deter beach erosion) and though yes it makes sense that they wouldn't want me taking the rocks they purchased - I wouldn't be taking rocks that are key to a "reef". (people use them to stand on when they are fishing). Also - the water I got yesterday is a bit greenish and cloudy. And I'm using the filter that my friend provided with the tank which she used for fresh water. Do either of those things sound problematic? Perhaps you could recommend a website that is educational for absolute beginnners?

 

[wade1]

Beach Sand:
This is usually silica sand. The main problems are that it will compact and be very dense (nothing will live in it) and begin to look bad in short order. It will not provide any buffering capacity to the tank either. The other issue is that almost all the critters in the sand will die in your tank in short order (they require that constant movement/food/oxygen).

Jetty Rock:
This will also not help with anything except to create hiding places for fish. It will not serve for filtration purposes at all. It can be used, but not to the same benefit (things can only live on its surface, not inside of it).

I'm not sure how the legal side of things goes with general rocks. If you are not near to a real reef, I doubt anyone would care a bit. Speaking of...whereabouts are you? Can you scuba dive/free dive to get some sand/rock?

As for beginner information, we have tons of info... look in our library (www.reefs.org/library). Included there is a newbie guide which runs over almost all of the basics... http://www.reefs.org/library/newbieguide.htm

Wade

 

[denysedar]

Okie thanks. Glad we didn't get sand We did get a few small peices of jetty rock that has few barnacles and dead oyster shell with some tiny mussels and a few tidbits of algae. I've put them in the water (the tank is JUST water at this point so no harm done if these critters are no-no's) along with some ENORMOUS snails we found. If someone winds up telling me I screwed up royally and need to start from scratch I'm ok with that - the kids had great fun doing all this. I actually did read that beginner guide. It was good to read but I think I need the "Salt tanks for Dummies" course because I seem to have some uncommon questions that must be so darn basic it borders on retarded. So I'll just post em heheheh but you did a great job on that beginner guide (saw your name on the bottom so how lucky am I to get the guy who wrote a guide to answer my question!?!?)

Location wise I'm in Daytona Beach (according to a well known travelog - "where life's losers go to lay in the sand and lick their wounds") with it's murky sea water (you couldn't see 2 feet with a mask) and not a reef to be had here until you reach the tropical waters of Miami. I could always plan a vacation to the keys but I think probably setting up a tank the synthetic way would be far cheaper and a LOT less headache (ever taken a 2-year-old on a vacation? sheer misery!).

 

[wade1]

You'll be surprised at the cost to get a tank going! It might not be a bad idea to take an overnighter to the miami area (or further south) to grab some sand and water if you can carry it.

I would think you can use the water from nearby, however, I would very heavily filter it first (use carbon and particle filters). That area isn't known for its clean freshwater inputs, but for fish you'll be ok. It is the one area I would heavily consider going synthetic in though (salt really isn't that costly).

No worries about odd questions, keeps our days interesting!

Wade

 

[denysedar]

Yeah the costs are SCARY. Some of these things cost as much as an entire outfit from Saks! I have fallen into this purely by accident because what woman is going to pass up a free 29 gallon tank plus accesories!?!? But now I'm thinking I got suckered and what's worse is that I'm so stupid I STILL want to do this!

Here's my goal (very lofty I'm sure as I never do anything half-way):

I'd like to have a reef with corals, anemones, urchins and a sea horse and possibly breed and propogate

Here are my questions:

In two days I've put in water, a few fist-size rocks and something like 8 turbo snails - all harvested from the jetty.

The muscles and barnacles worry me because I think you referenced them as needing the moving water (tide like) right? And even if I did succeed in keeping them - don't they tend to take over? So get rid of them?

The snails I know must be good right so they would be keepers but with nothing in the tank at the moment will there be adequate food for them?

And I think the rocks are ok as long as I add live rock? You were right about them being dense - things are living on them but are they right kinds of things for where I'm trying to go?


The filter thingy (or pump- I dunno!) that was given to me with the tank is a Whisper 10-20. It has cleared the water in 2 days and filtered out all the cloudiness but this filter was what my friend used for her fresh water tank. Can I still use this thing with perhaps some modification to the filter inserts?

I know the flourescent that was given to me won't work - so Metal Halide right? Can you suggest how many and what sizes for a 29 gallon? And how quickly do I need to get this light source installed given that I've started the water? Also - at the moment sunlight hits the tank early morning and by 10 am. Is this ok?

I don't know the dimensions of the tank but it is taller than it is wide. I need something called a skimmer right? Again any recommendations?

So that's it for my questions for the moment anyway. Honestly this stuff seems like brain surgery it's that complicated! But thanks for the help you've been providing.

 

[Anonymous]

Good idea.

 

[wade1]

Slow down a bit!

1- forget seahorses.... they are a huge amount of trouble. If you really want to go with them, you really need to do your research. In sumary, they need 18"+ deep tanks, no stinging corals or anemones, low water flow, and high feeding. I've reared them and it is not fun. You also have to purchase them from places that raise them (only 2 I know of) if you want them to live.

2- If you up to Metal Halide lighting, you will be able to keep almost anything that requires light. However, on a tank of the size you have, it will generate some heat issues (reefs need to stay between 76-83 ideally). You don't need that intense lighting for most soft corals and many of the LPS... VHO or PC or t5 lighting will suffice. Although it is much more simple to get something like a 150W halide.

3- A skimmer is going to be necessary if you want to keep a packed in reef. Take a look at the nano forum on here and see what people are doing these days. There are a couple of good skimmers that can hang on the back of the tank made these days.

4- your power filter is not going to hurt anything. It will actually help you out IF you keep it clean. Using it to contain activated carbon is ideal, you just want to avoid waiting too long between cleanings as you will start generating alot of nitrates in your tank.

5- your jetty rock is fine. The barnacles will likely survive if they get enough food... they don't need tidal fluxes, only alot of food. Most of the critters on that rock are perfectly fine and the snails are as well. They might spread pretty heavily if they do survive tho, so it depends on if you like the look of them or not. Like you mention, the rock isn't a problem, but it doesn't help you alot. I would suggest you just remove it after it helps get the sand life (if you don't collect it yourself) going... you don't need a whole bunch of rock in a small tank.

Did I miss anything? If so... ask again. :lol:

 

[Tackett]

I know Im not near as experienced as wade, but I will give you some info and recomendations. Everything is just my opinion, and some of it is the safest easiest way to do something.

First, flow and current:

Try to get the biggest pumps to circulate the most water as you possibly can. People preach wavemakers but I wouldnt mess with them at this stage in the game. I used to have a 29 gallon before I moved everything into a 55 a while back. I didnt think about powerhead placement or pumps (because I didnt know what I was doing.) and after some learning, I regretted it. In a tank that small its hard to put some large powerheads in without tearing down the rock work. If I were you, I would get a (read one) very large (large meaning high gph) powerhead, place it in the middle and face the front glass of the tank. Pile rock around it and in front of it to hide it. You can purchase nontoxic epoxy to glue the rocks down, or just do what I do and stack them. (but keep in mind that you WILL be restacking a few stragglers that fall every now and again untill you get the placement right.) Keep in mind though, that if you go this route with a submersible powerhead, you will not be able to get any anemones unless you make the rock around it fairly tight. Anemones are good at getting sucked up and damaged by powerheads. However, having said that you can go a different route with an external pump (which are fairly costly) and sump. Sumps are a whole other bag of worms, and runs into more money. But this is alot easier to do maintanence on. But, at this stage in the game, I would go ahead and go the internal powerhead direction, and give up on the anemones untill you have been able to successfully keep some simpler (but still beautiful) species. Anemones are very hard to take care of and are not for beginners. Granted, like I said, I am not the most experienced reefer, but I have never been able to keep one alive for very long.

Some good websites for equipment and supplies are:
www.liveaquaria.com
www.marinedepot.com
www.thatfishplace.com
these three guys have some cheap prices and good customer service.

The powerheads that I recomend are (the high end models are at the bottom of the lists.):
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 2004+22788
The 901's are a good deal, 50 beans for 900gph is fairly reasonable. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 2004+22788
The ever popular maxijets are killer little powerheads, the high model give up close to 300gph, and I would get a few of these guys and line them up against the backwall and face the front if you go this route.

Personally, I would get the aquaclear 901 and place it like i said above, and stack rocks around it to hide it.

secondly, I agree with wade about the seahorses, they are a royal pain. Beautiful but a pain. I would also be careful with the urchins, as they have a habit of turning rock into swiss cheese by chewing on them.

Third, are you sure those are turbo snails, I dont know much about daytona, but Im doubting it. I speak from personal experience when I say DO NOT put anything in your tank without knowing EXACTLY what it is, what it needs, and what it can do. You would never buy another animal on a whim without knowing what it is, so dont do it with sea critters as tempting as it is.

Fourth: That powerfilter can be a great asset or a headache. Keep it clean, and replace the cartridges at LEAST once a month, on schedule, religously. Do the same with your waterchanges, once a week, twice a week whatever. just make sure you are consistant with what you use, where you get it and how you make it. Some people are going to argue this next statment until they are blue in the face, dont listen to them. "Do NOT use your tap if you go synthetic salt." I would in fact do as wade says and use your sea water, just filter the crap out of it before adding it. However if you go the sythetic salt route here is the method that I do that seems to work for me. First the materials:

1. I buy RO/DI water from wal-mart. RO/DI stands for "Reverse osmosis, Deionization" It is a method of filtering water to 99.9 percent pure. You can buy a RO unit from any of the three website that I gave you earlier. But dont buy cheap, expect to spend in the 200 dollar range for one. However, having said this, it is much cheaper in the long run to do this instead of the wal-mart route like I do. I do it just because I have a hard time coming up with 200 dollars cold hard cash. Its much easier to drop about 10 beans a week on water. (yours will be cheaper, remember mine is a 55 gallon.) Anyways, when you go to wal-mart, look on the label at the method of filtration. It has to say "filtered by reverse osmosis and deizonization." If it says any other filtering method after it, then its still ok, just as long as it has those words, somewhere on the label it is good to use.
2. Buy a small, over fivegallon plastic trashcan.
3. Buy one or two small powerheads using the discussion that we had above, they can be cheapies.

Here is the proceedure. I do all of this every thursday.
1. 5 gallons of RO water from wal-mart.
2. pour all five gallons into your trash can (making sure its near a wall outlet.)
3. Put your synthetic salt in next and use your hydrometer (something else to buy) to make sure it is between 1.021 - 1.024.
4. put the powerhead(s) in the can and run them with the bubblemakers on. The little tube that sucks air to them, the instructions should say how to rig it up.
5. Run it overnight (it can stay circulating for a good while.) but the next day is a good rule of thumb.
6. siphon out 5 gallons of water (using a 5 gallon bucket)
7. pour the new water in.

This sounds like a royal pain, but its not bad, all in all it takes me around 10 minutes to mix the water, and another 10 to change it the next day. But, like I said, I have a 55 so I change out 10 gallons weekly.

umm..forgot what number is next..Five:
sythetic salts: I use Oceanic, but many people like Instant Ocean, reef crystals. If you go with instant ocean make sure it says "reef crystals" because there are two types. Not the normal bag with the clownfish on the front, but the bag that has all the corals on the front. (dont even think it has a fish on it.) it is a bit more expensive but contains alot more trace elements than just normal Instant ocean.

Six:
skimmers, what wade says hit the skimmer thing on the head. Check out the nano forums, most skimmers (large ones anyway) are made to be sump placed, but having said that, there are many good ways to rig one to hang on the tank, or buy them specially made to do such.

seven:
lights. Lighting is such an indepth subject and is VERY confusing, there are lots of ways to set up lights. There are two routes you can go, power compact (PC) and Halides.
Power compacts are cheaper, put off less heat, and are a little bit easier to maintain. Just remember to change bulbs about every 8 months or so. Your tank probably came with a full hood, throw it away. If you want a top on your tank (and you probably do.) put a clear glass top on it like this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 2004&Nty=1
Run of the mill 29's are 30" i think. but if yours is taller it might be different. Just take the ole' tape measure to it. One other thing, buy a light timer, put whatever lights you have on at least a 10 hour on cycle. Some guys do 12 and 12, just depends on what you want to do.
Ill run you through the PC basics. PC's are cheaper than halides, cooler (temperature wise), and easier, but have their downfalls. I have PC's on my 55 and wish I had bought halides, but ill never afford them. With powercompacts, I think its best to get the highest wattage possible that will still fit your tank and wallet, I would say that about halides as well, but you can definatley go overboard on a 29 gallon with halides. Here are some good PC's.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 004+113176
The aqualights are cheap and do the job. They dont have moonlights (which are small lights that simulate the moon at nightime.) but these are not a necesity and, in my opinion, are just for show. Like I said before, youll have to measure your tank to see which will fit, but they will be the same size as your glass top, but if all else fails, you can call them and ask.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 004+113176
This is what I have on my tank. Again, get the highest wattage that will fit. These have moonlights and you will have to buy a timer for them as well. Ok this brings up something else. when you purchase light fixtures like these, they will have a few power cords hanging off of them depending on what you get. Some will be for different sets of bulbs within the fixtures to turn them on independly of one another. (Ill tell you why in a minute.) and some will be for the moonlights. You will have to factor this in when buying timers, because each will need to be turned on independantly, at different times. Like I said, ill elaborate in a few minutes.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 004+113176
These are the orbits, they are the higher ends of the satellite models. They are a bit more powerful and a lot more expensive. Same rules apply.

Now, to elaborate on earlier. The reason for the on off variations is the fact that there are SO many different types of bulbs. Bulbs (MH and PC) have a kelivn rating, shown as eg. 10000k. This, correct me if im wrong somebody, means that the higher the rating, the bluer the bulb,. There are also bulbs out there called "Actinic" these bulbs are totally blue. Most people mix and match these bulbs to give a desired effect. What does this mean to you? Experimentation is what it means. Most fixtures come with bulbs, so unless you just want to drop some money and replace the bulbs, you are stuck with what they give you. Your best (with PC at least) is to mix 10000k with actincs half and half. (if you have 4 bulbs, 2 10000 and 2 actinic.) this is the way i have mine set up and its not to blue, and not too yellow or white. I had an all glass PC on my old 29 and the bulbs that came with it were 6000k and were super yellow.

Now we get into MH, and im not going to pretend to know much about them. I know the basics and from what I understand, pendants will be your best bet, though someone with more experience is free to correct me. Here are some pendants.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 004+113352
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 004+113352

There are also some fixtures out there that set on top of the tank like the PC that we just talked about, these are fine except for the fact that they will probably boil your water. Halides put out LOTS of heat, and fixtures like that will require a chiller. Pendants are best because you can adjust the hight untill the temperature goes to desired level. You will have a slight temp drop after the lights go out (timers still apply) but it wont be much. So, having said earlier that I dont know much about halides, Im going to leave it to the guys that know what the hell they are talking about and keep my mouth shut.

Well, there you go, I hope something here helps you. I wrote alot because I know how frustrating it is to start something like this and wind up screwing the pooch because you didnt get alot of the facts. Hopefully I gave you good info, and if anyone else sees a mistake feel free to call me on it, I didnt do it maliciously, I probably honestly did not know.

So best of luck buddy.

 

[denysedar]

I really seriously mean this - thank you sooooooo much. Wade - you've been incredibly kind, patient & instructive and Tackett - I'm speechless! That must have taken you forever to write - moreover the time you took to provide links and options and the sheer educational information. A mere thank you to you both seems inadequate but it's all I have. Waterplanet: ~~~

First: So ok I give up on the idea of sea horses but then I figured I had insanely lofty goals anyway.

Second: I guess I misread the newbie guide stuff and assumed the Metal Halide was the thing to get. (Actually what it said was those were the best and my twisted brain assumed that's what I needed to get since the recommendations so far have been to never skimp) I think I'm going to get the same one Tackett has. According to the link the dual version of that light has the fans to cut the heat. Is this what I would need or would the single version be ok? (remember I'm Florida climate) Thank god you had the same size tank previously Tackett and I can pick your brain about what worked for you especially given you upgraded which knowing me is on my horizon as well Someone on here has a quote that says there's a fine line between hobby and obsession - it scares me that it might be accurate!

Third: So that Whisper 10-20 is a filter. Ok. But I also need a pump??? I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around this one. This is something that forces water out or sucks it in? (you said it would blow down the rocks but then later said the anemones would get sucked up so I'm confused) How do the animals survive this? It sounds stressful. The filter I have dumps quite a lot of water. That's not sufficient?

Four: Give up anemones too!?!?!? I promised my daughter we would make our own "Finding Nemo" and everybody knows that Nemo lived in an anemonie! This is kind of deja vu - I had a REALLY small salt water tank a few years ago (a Walmart 5 gallon with bio wheel ) and the guy at the fish store wouldn't sell me any fish - only ugly brown rocks and two yucky green plants. A month later he let me buy this really ugly tube thing that popped out redish hairs but mostly just looked like a rotted intestine. Man was that thing disgusting looking. Then finally after like two months he let me buy two tiny fish - a purple one and a blue one. And they killed each other so I decided to chuck it all because it was too dang boring and ugly. I get the idea behind being patient and more knowledgeable and I believe in being responsible but if anemonies are not for beginners can either of you tell me what I can start with thats colourful and/or interesting to watch and maybe somewhat educational for little kids? (That's how the sea horse idea got in my head. I wanted to tell my daughter about the male having the babies etc.)

Five: I'm definitely not sure they're turbo snails but no matter - they were for the kids. Most of the contents scare me because it's true - I have no clue what it does, what it eats or what effect it has on a tank which is generally the formula for "some-kind-of-dead-critter-is-gonna-need-a-funeral". So once I get sand, a substrate, live rocks, the lights and the powerthingy and I'm ready to install it all - the kids and I will gently return these critters back to the sea if they haven't gone belly-up.

Six: So I think I'm going to continue to use the sea water and just filter it heavily. It's something the whole family can do and it's more natural in my mind. But can either of you suggest a brand of skimmer and/or size?

Seven: Tackett - your profile pic is that blue ring octopus isn't it? I saw on the general reefkeeping forum they were discussing that octopus. Did you see it? Beautiful animal. I entertained an octopus garden for about 10 minutes until I found out they need big tanks and you have to keep them solitary LOL! Reality bites sometimes.

So ok..thanks again to you both. I think I'm headed in the right direction now! Now if I could just get a handle on the acronyms

 

[wade1]

If you are set on keeping an anemone, you will basically have a tank with an anemone in it. ALL species get too big for a tank of that size. Your best bet is an E. quadricolor (bubble tip... green, red, etc). They can subsist on the lowest amount of light and stay relatively small/less destructive.

If you do want anemones, the other thing is that you will want to go with metal halides (which, in fact, can be cheaper once you factor in replacement bulb costs/time). 150/175W should suffice.

Avoid condylactis anemones (the cheap ones with pink tips) as they are not naturally hosted by anything and sting rather heavily (although they are tough boogers).

If you want anemone, I would suggest... get 175 or 150 watt MH lighting in a pendant to suspend over the tank... get a bubble tip anemone and a couple of small ocellaris clowns... and you are set. As mentioned, you have to be VERY careful with powerheads and anemones... they can get sucked up readily. If you decide to go that route, I can help with details on anemone placement.

Wade

PS- Thanks for the mass of info Tackett!

 

[Tackett]

First: So ok I give up on the idea of sea horses but then I figured I had insanely lofty goals anyway.

Dont give up on anything, just throw them to the wayside untill you get some experience under your belt.

Second: I guess I misread the newbie guide stuff and assumed the Metal Halide was the thing to get. (Actually what it said was those were the best and my twisted brain assumed that's what I needed to get since the recommendations so far have been to never skimp) I think I'm going to get the same one Tackett has.

Metal Halides are the best hands down. Are they a neccessity over the other lights out there, In my opinion, I dont think so. Will you eventually get one if you get PC's on this tank? More than likely. If you want my opnion on what to buy, get a high wattage powercompact. Make sure you measure your tank first, because your choices for lighting is WAY different depending. example: a 30" satellite has 2 65 watt bulbs. (thats the one that you should get if this is the case.) however, if your tank is a 30 gallon instead of a 29 gallon, that makes the lights 36" and you can get the satellite with the dual 96 watt bulbs. Or....you could get it anyways, and let it hang off the sides, which is ugly I warn you. In this case, if it is indeed 30" the two 65 watt bulbs will be sufficient. However do remember to change the bulbs every 8 months religeously. (do everything religeously, the critters will adapt better.)

According to the link the dual version of that light has the fans to cut the heat. Is this what I would need or would the single version be ok?

Definatley get the dual lamps. The fans are really nice. After I moved my critters from the 29 to the 55, I put the same lights that were on the 29 onto the 55 temporarily untill I could get a better light. I wanted a metal halide so badly I could taste it, just couldnt afford it. I noticed, even with the lights that came off the 29 that my temp stayed around 80-82 degrees when the lights were on, when they went off, the temp went down to around 78. Now that I have the bigger satellite with the fan, my temps fluctuate around 78 degrees with lights on and 76 with lights off, and I never adjusted my heater. That leads me to believe that the fans work rather nicely.

Third: So that Whisper 10-20 is a filter. Ok. But I also need a pump???

YES, that whisper doesnt push NEAR the amount of water that is needed. This may sound weird, but the higher the flow in the tank the better. The links that I sent you are called powerheads. They are used to circulate water through the tank. They suck water through the bottom, and squirt it out of the front at a given rate. GPH stands for gallons per hour, a powerhead that is rated for 300 gallons per hour pushes out around 300 gallons of water per hour. Reef tanks need crazy amounts of current in them. The 900gph powerhead in the link I sent you should be sufficient. When you get it read your instructions on putting it together with the suctioncups and fish guard (there are many different ways of assembly). Stick it to the back of the tank facing the front, below the surface, but not so far down that it winds up sucking up sand or is exposed when changing water. Place a rock on the bottom of the tank, directly underneath the powerhead. (so it wont get pushed to the bottom when stacking rock around it.) Then proceed to stack your rockwork around and in front of it to hide it. (this is purley aesthetic, powerheads are ugly.)

(you said it would blow down the rocks but then later said the anemones would get sucked up so I'm confused)

No you misunderstand, I never said it would blow down rocks. I said the rocks would end up falling if you didnt glue them with a commercial epoxy made for glueing rocks in a saltwater aquarium (yes it actually exists ) I just meant to say that stacked rocks, as opposed to glued together rocks, can, and more than likely, will fall untill they get settled.

How do the animals survive this? It sounds stressful. The filter I have dumps quite a lot of water. That's not sufficient?

As I said before, the whisper is not near sufficient. The whole goal of what we are doing with circulation is to keep all the waste and nasty stuff off the bottom of the tank, where it will break down. It will only get filtered if it is in the water column. A filter does us very little good, if the stuff is stuck on the bottom decaying and not being filtered. make sense?

Four: Give up anemones too!?!?!? I promised my daughter we would make our own "Finding Nemo" and everybody knows that Nemo lived in an anemonie!

I have heard this statement thousands of times since that movie came out, and I will give you props for looking for information before you went out and bought an anemone and a clownfish and then put them in a tank with idoized salt. I swear to god thats a true story. Do NOT give up on anything, just put it to the wayside until you get some experience, many experienced reefers have been able to keep anemones for years, even have them split (reproduce), but this is by NO MEANS an easy thing to do. Clownfish are excellent fish and do well without an anemone. Anemones on the other hand, are VERY difficult critters. Like I said, Ive never been able to keep one. One day you will be able to, after you have had the initial experience with easier animals. There are plenty of BEAUTIFUL creatures that are very hardy. In fact, in my tank now, every single thing in it would probably be considered beginner level critters. Look at all the fish at www.liveaquaria.com and look on the right at their care status. all the ones marked easy, actually are easy to keep. There are MANY.

This is kind of deja vu - I had a REALLY small salt water tank a few years ago (a Walmart 5 gallon with bio wheel ) and the guy at the fish store wouldn't sell me any fish - only ugly brown rocks and two yucky green plants. A month later he let me buy this really ugly tube thing that popped out redish hairs but mostly just looked like a rotted intestine. Man was that thing disgusting looking. Then finally after like two months he let me buy two tiny fish - a purple one and a blue one. And they killed each other so I decided to chuck it all because it was too dang boring and ugly.

This dude had no idea what he was doing, firebomb that fish store man. Many people in the nano forums have 5 gallon tanks and have very impressive setups, without nasty green plants mind you.

I get the idea behind being patient and more knowledgeable and I believe in being responsible but if anemonies are not for beginners can either of you tell me what I can start with thats colourful and/or interesting to watch and maybe somewhat educational for little kids? (That's how the sea horse idea got in my head. I wanted to tell my daughter about the male having the babies etc.)

As a matter of fact, its link time :

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=173
The purple firefish, I have one of these guys, This is an extremely beautiful fish, and is very hardy.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=168
The common or red firefish, is very interesting, its long dorsal fin differs it from all the other firefish. A very hardy and cheap fish. I have two of these.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=228
the yellow watchman goby is a very interesting fish. It will form a sybiotic relationship with certain species of pistol shrimp (which are also hardy critters.) It will share the burrow and help collect food. I also have one of these along with a pistol.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... CatId=1116
One of the (if not THE) most purple fish you will ever lay eyes on. The picture does NOT do it justice. I have one of these and CANNOT photograph it because it is so purple that it turns royal blue on camera.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=755
This is the REAL nemofish. There are many types of clowns out there, this one is the one that nemo was modeled after as far as I know. And they are very hardy and do well without anemones.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=318
This is a stunner, most of the fairy wrasses are too energetic for a small 29 gallon, but these guys tend to to good and are just...wow, drop dead gorgeous, again the picture sucks.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod ... pCatId=375
another easy, but beautiful fairy wrasse.

I mean there are millions of possiblilities. These are just FISH, this doesnt even count corals, inverts or anything. And these arent even alot of the possible fish. There are tons of things to educate with.

1. How cleaner shrimp (another fairly hardy critter. also in finding nemo if Im not mistaken) will set up stations and clean the parasites of fish that come over. And how sometimes even groupers and larger fish wont kill them because of their value as parasite hunters. Cleaner wrasses are the same way, Ive seen groupers even let them in their mouths to clean.

2. How porcupine puffers (again easy, but NOT reefsafe) will puff up with their spines erect to keep from getting eaten.

3. How sea cucumbers have a greater poop to body mass ratio than any other animal on the planet.

Endless possiblities.

So I think I'm going to continue to use the sea water and just filter it heavily. It's something the whole family can do and it's more natural in my mind. But can either of you suggest a brand of skimmer and/or size?

Hmm.. I have no experience with hang on back skimmers, but DONT get a prizm skimmer. they suck, as do seaclones. I know of a few that rock, though I have NO IDEA if they make hang on back models.
lifereef
euroreef
Red sea (Make the berlin series I think)
Whoever makes the turboflotor multi. I KNOW thats a hang on skimmer and it is supposed to be very good.

As far as size goes, get the biggest freakin one that you can possibly afford and fit on your tank. The bigger it is, the more it can export faster.

Seven: Tackett - your profile pic is that blue ring octopus isn't it? I saw on the general reefkeeping forum they were discussing that octopus. Did you see it? Beautiful animal. I entertained an octopus garden for about 10 minutes until I found out they need big tanks and you have to keep them solitary LOL! Reality bites sometimes.

Octopuses (yes I said octopuses.) are definatley not easy critters and have very short life spans. Blue rings are probably my favorite critters, though I will enjoy them from the discovery channel, and not any tank of mine anytime soon. You would be surprised that most octopuses are small (golfball sized) and a 30 gallon tank would be more than sufficient. I kept one in a 30 gallon tank untill it died of old age. (most only have a natural life span of around a year some shorter.) But they are definatley another branch that will make you relearn how to setup a tank. Just like sea horses

As for the help, dont mention it, weve all been there. I think we are all just excited that people are actually ASKING before they jump headlong into something and start killing things.

 

[Tackett]

If you do want anemones, the other thing is that you will want to go with metal halides (which, in fact, can be cheaper once you factor in replacement bulb costs/time). 150/175W should suffice.

agreed, but necessary at this stage do you think? not trying to argue or plug for PC's, asking a geniune question. DONT take my ignorance of Metal Halides that you should not get them, I havent messed with them much so I dont know anything about them. So rather than give you wrong information, I just didnt say anything.

If you want anemone, I would suggest... get 175 or 150 watt MH lighting in a pendant to suspend over the tank... get a bubble tip anemone and a couple of small ocellaris clowns... and you are set.

If that is what you are going for, that is the best thing to do. If you can do the research and get the money, definatley spring for the halides.

PS- Thanks for the mass of info Tackett!

No problem, Im just glad it was right.

 

[Tackett]

Wait, I think I learned something today too.

Aqua C remoras are supposed to be good skimmers and they have hang on models.

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_pro ... ?ast=&key=

let someone else say something before you jump and order, because I really dont know.

 

[denysedar]

You two are totally hooking me up. woohoo! I swear I've learned more in this conversation than literally three solid days of internet research. Being the entreprenuer that I am - I think the two of you should collaborate on a "Reefbuilding for Dummies" book. No joke. Eveything the two of have talked about - you explained in a way that a total ignoramous (that'd be me hehehe) understood. Tackett - you'd be able to get those Metal Halides you've been drooling over And Wade..you could do the interviews on Good Morning America. *grin*

So ok..then the jury is still out about lighting for my tank. :/ Two things working against me so far is that most likely I will want to upgrade to a larger tank in the future AND the critters will grow and <REQUIRE> a larger tank. Since I am not independently wealthy I have to have a strategy with regard to purchasing these high ticket equipment peices keeping in mind future probabilities. I did like you advised Tackett and took a measuring tape to the tank. It's 30 x 18.75 x 12.25. I'm ok with not having an anemone right now - corals seem to be pretty enough and I was not aware that there was such a thing as soft coral which from the pics seems to kind of look like anemones but ideally I'd like to build a tank that in the future could host most anything (you know how tastes evolve over time). i.e. today I want an anemone but given the fact I'm female - it's highly probably that tomorrow I'll forget about the anemone and want an octopus or whatever. Based on ALL those factors what's the best/most frugal thing to get for lighting?


I'm going to have to go with a hang on back skimmer - no choice. The tank is on top of a bookcase (my friend did not donate a stand) at this point so equipment underneath isn't an option (which is a drag because that means increased cost of a different skimmer when upgrading). So knowing that the skimmer is going to be a toss-away in the future - maybe I should buy used?


I'm unsure of what the order of getting this stuff should be. I think I jumped the gun by going and getting the sea water and critters maybe? This is day 3 of this tank and there's some hair like algae starting to grow on everything and everyone (the bunch of snails). And there's a baby mussel that's attached itself to the side of the tank. So all that stuff is scaring me now LOL!!! So ok back to my question..got the tank, got the filter. Gotta get the skimmer, lights, sand, rock, powerhead thingys and do some sort of side set-up for filtering sea water when I do water changes right? What's the order of assembling these things? Like do I need the powerhead doohickie from the very beginning or can it be added later and if you add it later is it a big pain in the bum and is it messy (given you know the tank is on a bookcase).

So ok..thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you BOTH!!!!!!

 

[wade1]

A couple beginner books already exist on the market.... http://reefs.org/library (look for the recommended reading list)

Here's my recommended purchasing order:
1) Good lighting
2) Good skimmer
3) Good rock

All the rest is somewhat secondary to those in that exact order. If you want this tank to thrive, it will need those things. Circulation is probably the next most important thing. Powerheads are fine, although you MUST protect their intakes (and place them such that you can get them out to clean them every month or so).

Another awesome hang on type skimmer is a turbofloater (they make both kinds).

As for the lighting debate... I would highly recommend you start with some form of ready assembled metal halide (if you really enjoy this hobby, it will save you from buying this later on!). Get something in the 10,000K range (thats a color of light)... such as the 150W double ended setup or a single ended 175W. PC's are good, but one major drawback is that as soon as they age (usually 6-8 months) they must be immediately replaced or you will see huge blooms of algae as the K shifts down. This is the case with all lights, but PCs (in my experience (IME)) are the worst for it.

 

[Tackett]

PC's are good, but one major drawback is that as soon as they age (usually 6-8 months) they must be immediately replaced or you will see huge blooms of algae as the K shifts down. This is the case with all lights, but PCs (in my experience (IME)) are the worst for it.

I totally agree. I used to write the date on my bulbs when I got them, now I dont even bother, the bloom of algae is so obvious when the bulbs start to decay, that I use that to gauge when I need to change them. Go with the double ended halide pendant.

 

[denysedar]

So ok..lighting issue solved I've started a running list (I actually copied a cost list from a website - www.reefsource.itgo.com/setup/hardware.html and I'm modifying with the items you guys have suggested.) It's a handy little thing though for sure because not only is it starting to firm up just how much moolah this is going to take - it seems to think of almost EVERY expense though there a few things I don't get. He mentions a ground fault circuit interrupter and a titanium ground probe (sounds VERY scary). Is that circuit interrupter thingy a power surge thingamabob? And what on earth is a ground probe and what's it do!?!?! If either ofyou get a chance to peek at that list - would you let me know which stuff is crap and what's really necessary? I have ascertained that I don't need the PVC pipe lol. He's also outlined a 40 gallon tank and mine is only a 29 so maybe some of his stuff isn't needed in my size. which btw..am I considered a "nano" tank at 29 gallons???? I started cruising that nano forum but I must have a female version of Napolean complex because I was insulted to be cavorting with the "Nano"s

I had mentioned earlier about purchasing some of these things second hand but neither of you lopped that one back to my side of the court. Have either of you had any exposure to folks around here buying second hand? The guy who made that website mentions ebay even but maybe someone like me who knows nothing could get really burned.

So you guys have a GREAT New Years Eve and may this be the happiest, most prosperous year you've ever had in your whole lives!

 

[craig45]

Looks like you have received excellent advice here, and you have probably searched the web for other ideas. Thought I'ld give you a link to a site that I found well written and informative.
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/sbegin.html

Craig