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Trends pointing to a problem? Need advice.
- Thread starter supergiantrobot
- Start date
It releases whatever is in its tissues back into the water column (nutrients, toxins, etc.).
This is one of the the reasons that some prefer to avoid relying on algae for filtration. For those who do, most eventually switch to algae species that are less susceptible to this sort of thing and are less noxious to the system. Chaetamorpha and Gracilaria are two such species that are commonly used.
This is one of the the reasons that some prefer to avoid relying on algae for filtration. For those who do, most eventually switch to algae species that are less susceptible to this sort of thing and are less noxious to the system. Chaetamorpha and Gracilaria are two such species that are commonly used.
Here's a post from another thread in the GRD that might be helpful...
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=629675#629675
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=629675#629675
ChrisRD":29jh19qx said:Also, by the looks of it, there's been some changes going-on that would create variations in temp and pH. That could be adding to the situation. IMO stablility is more important than hitting the perfect numbers when it comes to water parameters.
If it were me, I'd isolate the fuge from the system or at least try to remove all the Caulerpa. I'd also do the large water change as recommended above. Then I'd let things sit for a week or two (no major changes) and stabilize.
The Caulerpa is gone. Will do a water change tomorrow. I am really inclined to go back to adding kalk. My calcium remains constant, yet the ALK has slowly come down. I was having good times with the kalk running...
Juck":11p9ecpm said:Try raising your Alk with a little baking soda dissolved in a glass of tank water,,,, just a few teaspoons then wait for an hour and check the Alk again.
I guess my intent was to restart the kalk so that it's a constant in the tank. I am a little afraid that when I go to start kalk three months from now, I'll have yet another perturbation.
So related to the question... is there a calcium level that is detrimental? Since I started the tank, and even before kalk, calcium was above 500 (nearly 600, as I recall.)
>>So related to the question... is there a calcium level that is detrimental?
A good question and one I haven't ever seen answered fully. I've had levels of Ca off the chart with no visible ill-effects. PH, Alk, Ca & MG all need to be within certain parameters for the tank to be 'balanced', for want of a better word, so if one component is way off the scale it can affect the others to some extent.
I'd maybe get another test kit for Ca,,, some of them will not read accurately over 500. Try the baking soda thing until you get all the caulerpa poop out of the system,, it really works well for me.
A good question and one I haven't ever seen answered fully. I've had levels of Ca off the chart with no visible ill-effects. PH, Alk, Ca & MG all need to be within certain parameters for the tank to be 'balanced', for want of a better word, so if one component is way off the scale it can affect the others to some extent.
I'd maybe get another test kit for Ca,,, some of them will not read accurately over 500. Try the baking soda thing until you get all the caulerpa poop out of the system,, it really works well for me.
Kalkwasser adds Alk and Ca in ionically balanced quantities so you shouldn't have a big problem with things getting out of balance from using kalkwasser.
If you find your Ca/Alk levels are just getting too high because the demand isn't enough to use it all up, maybe try an alternate system for a while. Try filling the feed reservoir with a less-than-saturated kalkwasser and just by-passing the reactor for now. Basically, you'd be adding less kalk per gallon with your topoff system.
Later on, once you have more calcifying corals, coralline growth, etc. and have higher Ca/Alk demands you can put the reactor back online.
Another option would be to just use the reactor to dose part time and top-off the rest of the evap with plain RO/DI - same effect. Depending on how your top-off system is setup though - this may not be as convenient.
HTH
If you find your Ca/Alk levels are just getting too high because the demand isn't enough to use it all up, maybe try an alternate system for a while. Try filling the feed reservoir with a less-than-saturated kalkwasser and just by-passing the reactor for now. Basically, you'd be adding less kalk per gallon with your topoff system.
Later on, once you have more calcifying corals, coralline growth, etc. and have higher Ca/Alk demands you can put the reactor back online.
Another option would be to just use the reactor to dose part time and top-off the rest of the evap with plain RO/DI - same effect. Depending on how your top-off system is setup though - this may not be as convenient.
HTH
I asked the folks at WetWebMedia and this is the reply I got...
Subject: Re: All snails dead
From: [email protected]
Date: November 26, 2004 12:38:15 PM EST
To: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
______________________________________________________________
http://www.WetWebMedia.com
- your first source for ornamental aquatics information!
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Martin Streicher <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:58:06 -0500
All snails dead
My 115 G reef tank (90G display + 10 G refugium + 15 G sump) has been
running since late August 04. Its inhabitants up until my problem,
which I'll explain in a moment, were:
2 green chromises
1 lawnmower blenny
5 trochus snails
7 Turbos
30 red-legged hermits
12 nassarius snails
25 ceriths snails
12 astrea snails
8 margarita snails
The fuge also had eight mangroves,
<Eight? Too many... you are aware how big these plants grow?>
Caulerpa prolifera, Chaetomorpha,
and Red Grape Caulerpa. The display had green star polyps, and red and
green mushrooms.
The aquarium runs between 78 and 80 degrees. pH of 8.3-8.4. Ammonia and
nitrite at 0. Nitrate below 5. Salinity 1.025. KH 9.6. No phosphate.
Calcium has consistently been above 500.
<Too high... 350 to 400 is better, more sustainable... particularly in the face of trying to maintain alkaline reserve>
I have a kalkwasser reactor that does automatic top off. I run 2 250W
10K MH and two 48" VHO blue Actinics.
On 5 November, I removed kalk from the reactor to try and get the
calcium down, even though it did not seem to have any negative effect.
On the next day, I added a purple montipora frag and a toadstool
leather coral.
On 7 Nov, I noticed that the turbos were dormant. None were dead, but
they were not moving much. The leather had shrunk a lot and the
montipora turned a dark color.
On 10 Nov, I changed carbon, replacing the 1.5 cups with new carbon. I
usually run two bags of 1.5 cups each and only change one at a time. I
also do 15-20% RO/DI water changes per week, matching temp and
salinity.
Later that day, the montipora died. By the 14th, I noticed more snails
were dying and the green star polyps remained closed. Somewhere around
this time, the leather began developing scabs in its edges.
At this point, all snails are dead. The hermits and fish are OK.
<Good clues, input, records>
One other thing I noticed was the Red Grape Caulerpa was losing its
color.
<Likely related to the loss of integrity of the chemistry, physics of the environment overall>
The Chaeto was also becoming "loose" and instead of a rich
green, was more faded. The Caulerpa prolifera, which had been growing
like crazy, also began to slow and eventually deteriorate. I removed
the caulerpas around the 20th before they disintregrated completely.
Theories include salinity that was way off. That did not pan out
because I bought a refractometer and my hydrometer is not off that
much. Another theory is copper or brass poisoning, but I do not know of
a source that would be causing this. I do use a standard plumbing check
valve on the incoming part of my RO/DI, and some standard garden hose
bibs to connect a pump to the chiller.
Other theory: The caulerpa poisoned the whole system when it began to
fall apart.
<Not likely, though a minor possible adjunct>
I am open to other theories and ideas. I'd like to avoid this happening
in the future again.
Martin
<Martin, it is obvious you care deeply, have some understanding of basic marine aquariology, and have a BUNCH of money invested in gear... but also apparent that some basic "hands-on" information has not been gained as yet... The problem you had is very likely a matter of a "cascade effect" originating with the super-normal calcium concentration (pushed by your Kalkwasser use)... to put the situation in simple terms, the overabundance of calcium hydroxide (Kalk) diminished the presence of carbonate (alkalinity) and its availability to your snails... AND likely poisoned your Mangrove "stand"... these organisms dying, have precipitated the other observable stress, loss of life. Please take the time to read over the materials archived on our site, www.WetWebMedia.com on: Mangroves, Alkalinity and Calcium, Environmental Disease... in the meanwhile, do NOT buy, place any more livestock or purchase more equipment... What you have, a good mind, capacity to learn, desire to do well.!
.. is all you need. Bob Fenner>
I am really frustrated by this whole experience. That is not a reflection of the many answers I've received, all of which are well-intended, but I still don't know what killed my snails and my star polyps (the mat is now decomposing rapidly.) Hence, I don't know what to correct.
Sometimes problems with a reef tank can be tough to pinpoint. We're all just giving our opinions based on our past experiences in an effort to help. In truth there are quite a few possibilities at this point and IMO nobody can really say for sure exactly what has happened.
That said, and FWIW, I disagree, at least in part, with the assessment above. I still agree with most of the advice/assessments that have been given in this thread.
Kalkwasser adds both Ca and Alk in ionically balanced quantities and will not throw your levels out of balance. It is possible to drive Ca/Alk levels too high by dosing too much kalkwasser (or any Ca/Alk supplements for that matter) causing a precipitation event which would cause a sudden drop in such levels. Still, I doubt that's what's behind your problems. Obviously when using any supplementation regimen (including kalkwasser) you need to monitor Ca/Alk levels regularly. If they start getting excessively high you need to back off of the doseages.
At any rate - one thing that makes no sense to me in all of this is how you had 500+ PPM Ca levels before you were even dosing kalk (assuming you're not adding any other Ca supplements). You may want to get another test kit or have your water tested at your LFS to verify those numbers...
My advice is to leave things alone for a while. Keep doing your water changes, feed the fish and just give the tank some time to settle down. Don't dose anything, add anything, change anything, etc. You should see noticeable improvment in the next couple of weeks.
Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone connect a chiller with garden hose fittings. If the fittings are metallic (with the exception of certain grades of stainless steel or titanium), personally I would rethink that setup for fear of corrosion of the fittings introducing a toxin into the system.
Be patient and you'll get things turned-around for the better.
That said, and FWIW, I disagree, at least in part, with the assessment above. I still agree with most of the advice/assessments that have been given in this thread.
Kalkwasser adds both Ca and Alk in ionically balanced quantities and will not throw your levels out of balance. It is possible to drive Ca/Alk levels too high by dosing too much kalkwasser (or any Ca/Alk supplements for that matter) causing a precipitation event which would cause a sudden drop in such levels. Still, I doubt that's what's behind your problems. Obviously when using any supplementation regimen (including kalkwasser) you need to monitor Ca/Alk levels regularly. If they start getting excessively high you need to back off of the doseages.
At any rate - one thing that makes no sense to me in all of this is how you had 500+ PPM Ca levels before you were even dosing kalk (assuming you're not adding any other Ca supplements). You may want to get another test kit or have your water tested at your LFS to verify those numbers...
My advice is to leave things alone for a while. Keep doing your water changes, feed the fish and just give the tank some time to settle down. Don't dose anything, add anything, change anything, etc. You should see noticeable improvment in the next couple of weeks.
Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone connect a chiller with garden hose fittings. If the fittings are metallic (with the exception of certain grades of stainless steel or titanium), personally I would rethink that setup for fear of corrosion of the fittings introducing a toxin into the system.
Be patient and you'll get things turned-around for the better.
The caleurpa is gone.
No more kalkwasser.
Did a water change with more to follow.
Exchanged the garden hose fittings for all-plastic fittings.
Fish remain healthy, as are the crabs. The mushroom corals are OK, too.
The strange thing is that some (its hard to tell exactly how many) of the nassarius are still alive. They continue to lay eggs everywhere.
No more kalkwasser.
Did a water change with more to follow.
Exchanged the garden hose fittings for all-plastic fittings.
Fish remain healthy, as are the crabs. The mushroom corals are OK, too.
The strange thing is that some (its hard to tell exactly how many) of the nassarius are still alive. They continue to lay eggs everywhere.
If the caulerpa went sexual... and caused this many problems for you, it explains some of my problems in my tank. Like not being able to keep a decent snail population.
I am fairly certain that some of my caulerpa went sexual recently. While I didn't lose the entire snail population, or corals to it, it could have been much worse. I'll go ahead and add what I did to compensate for the problem, maybe this will help you out.
All filter sponges (I have one in the overflow and one on the outflow of my skimmer) in the system were removed and rinsed until the water that came out of them was clear. Gave the skimmer a good cleaning to make sure all was working properly and turned it up a little bit to make sure all the baddies in the tank were getting skimmed. I added a load of carbon and placed this in the overflow box. Did major pruning of all macros in the tank (I came away with about four gallons of macro algae by the time I was done. yes, it was past time to prune). After I did all of this, I did a water change.
Within a week, all seems to be normal again, and my clownfish have just spawned. Whatever it was threw their spawning schedule off and it concerned me a bit. You know something's not right if your ocellaris aren't getting their groove on.
J.
I am fairly certain that some of my caulerpa went sexual recently. While I didn't lose the entire snail population, or corals to it, it could have been much worse. I'll go ahead and add what I did to compensate for the problem, maybe this will help you out.
All filter sponges (I have one in the overflow and one on the outflow of my skimmer) in the system were removed and rinsed until the water that came out of them was clear. Gave the skimmer a good cleaning to make sure all was working properly and turned it up a little bit to make sure all the baddies in the tank were getting skimmed. I added a load of carbon and placed this in the overflow box. Did major pruning of all macros in the tank (I came away with about four gallons of macro algae by the time I was done. yes, it was past time to prune). After I did all of this, I did a water change.
Within a week, all seems to be normal again, and my clownfish have just spawned. Whatever it was threw their spawning schedule off and it concerned me a bit. You know something's not right if your ocellaris aren't getting their groove on.
J.
My system looks to be recovering. Since I don't have horny clowns as a barometer, I am using other clues:
1/ The chaeto seems to be nice and bright green. Previously, it was "whitening" and falling apart. It seems to be tighter and growing.
2/ The green and red mushrooms look more rich and healthy. They may even be growing again.
If I feel lucky, I might add a handful of "canary" snails after my next water change to see if things are ok.
M
1/ The chaeto seems to be nice and bright green. Previously, it was "whitening" and falling apart. It seems to be tighter and growing.
2/ The green and red mushrooms look more rich and healthy. They may even be growing again.
If I feel lucky, I might add a handful of "canary" snails after my next water change to see if things are ok.
M
sgr, sorry it's taken me a while to answer your question.
To test for co2 build up, take a container of tank water and stick an airstone in it for few hours or over night. If pH goes up, co2 is the problem. Took me forever to get that taken care of.
I also have this problem with snails. Especially turbo's, they never last more than a month in my tank. Narrisius, nerites and ceriths do great for me.
Some where I read a 3 part article snails (I think at a different site) that was very informative.
Don't give up and thing will work out for you.
To test for co2 build up, take a container of tank water and stick an airstone in it for few hours or over night. If pH goes up, co2 is the problem. Took me forever to get that taken care of.
I also have this problem with snails. Especially turbo's, they never last more than a month in my tank. Narrisius, nerites and ceriths do great for me.
Some where I read a 3 part article snails (I think at a different site) that was very informative.
Don't give up and thing will work out for you.
I can't keep turbo's at all, they live maybe a month if I'm lucky. They're a cooler tank inhabitant, and I guess mine is just to warm for them.
When I was having a co2 problem, I couldn't keep my pH up where it needed to be. Small animals, hermits, shrimp and mostly the snails all seemed to slowly die. I also had problems keeping other inverts alive for long periods as well. I started pumping the air in, saw my pH stablize and stopped seeing my snails die.
I'll add this in here too, when I first started out, I ordered one of those clean-up crew packages, I got 15 hermits and 30 assort. snails for my 29. I think it was over kill. Now I have maybe 6-8 hermits and probably the same amount of snails, if not less. My tank seems to reached a happy medium.
Here's the link to the first part of the article on grazing snails. Sorry RDO.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/index.htm
When I was having a co2 problem, I couldn't keep my pH up where it needed to be. Small animals, hermits, shrimp and mostly the snails all seemed to slowly die. I also had problems keeping other inverts alive for long periods as well. I started pumping the air in, saw my pH stablize and stopped seeing my snails die.
I'll add this in here too, when I first started out, I ordered one of those clean-up crew packages, I got 15 hermits and 30 assort. snails for my 29. I think it was over kill. Now I have maybe 6-8 hermits and probably the same amount of snails, if not less. My tank seems to reached a happy medium.
Here's the link to the first part of the article on grazing snails. Sorry RDO.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/index.htm
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