Fish still dieing off

[Anonymous]

Ok I need the help from the pros I have no idea what happened. My last two surviving fish give it up today and the only change I seen was the tang hung out on the air stone yesterday and ate about 1/2 what he normally does. 24 hours to go from normal to dead

Lets fisrt give you some history. I took the advise of a LFS (First Mistake) and put a 50 gallon SW tank up (good so far). I have 10 pounds of LR, Fine grain sand, penn plax 185gph cascade canister filter, and a coralife super skimmer.

(Second Mistake) I put 2 clowns, 1 blue tang, 2 blenny scooters, and the LR rock all in at the same time (LFS said not a problem). Now you guessed it the water chemistry went off the scale killing all but the tang and one scooter. Many water changes later and a little luck 2 survived until today (2 weeks of stable chemistry and no changes)

Water chemistry is now Ammonia=0, Nitrate=0,Nitrite=0,PH=8.4 and Specific Gravity=1.022 to 1.023 and temp 79 to 80 F.

Adding about 1 gallon of distilled water/day due to evap. Skimmer pulls off about 1/2 cup of green stuff/day

I have 50 pounds of cured LR in a container curing again to add to the tank when the chemistry is right this time. Yes it has water flow, filter, and skimmer and I'm keeping it as close to the main tanks config as possible. (off the subject some sorry)

Now to the real question from all the rambling. Do you have any idea what happen to the last 2 fish? I am really want to make this work but I refuse to kill anymore fish from my ignorance.

Thanks in advance to all.

 

[Anonymous]

My guess is ammonia poisoning.

Contrary to popular belief, high ammonia levels can cause permanent damage to fish. Even if the fish lives through the initial spike it could have received a fatal dose and it can take days to die.

Example: Imagine that your digestive system was destroyed. The first day wouldn't be so bad but there's no way you're going to survive long.

I'm sure you now understand that everything needs to be accomplished slowly in a saltwater system.

First thing I would do if I were in your shoes would be to build a closed loop around an 800-1000gph pump. Your waterflow is woefully inadequate.

Feel free to add the rock you are curing into the aquarium now that you have no fish. It will cure better there.

OK, I changed my mind, that would be the second. First thing I would do is fire the LFS and find another source of aquarium information. They failed you.

 

[Anonymous]

My guess is ammonia poisoning.

Contrary to popular belief, high ammonia levels can cause permanent damage to fish. Even if the fish lives through the initial spike it could have received a fatal dose and it can take days to die.

Example: Imagine that your digestive system was destroyed. The first day wouldn't be so bad but there's no way you're going to survive long.

I'm sure you now understand that everything needs to be accomplished slowly in a saltwater system.

Ok now that makes sense. The ammonia was 6 to 8 ppm for about 24 hours. Yes I learned the hard way about going slow. My major mistake was not researching before I started and just going with one source. Thank you for the info.

To all that reads this thread. Would you post your favorite 3 SW books. Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Ok now that makes sense. The ammonia was 6 to 8 ppm for about 24 hours.

Would you post your favorite 3 SW books. Thanks

8O wow, that's really high.

My methods differ from most books but IMO a good SW book is crucial for learning terms and even understanding what questions to ask.

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist
Natural Reef Aquariums

 

[Anonymous]

Ammonia Poisoning

# Fish gasp for breath at the water surface
# Purple or red gills
# Fish is lethargic
# Loss of appetite
# Fish lays at the bottom of the tank
# Red streaking on the fins or body

I thought for some of the new folks this would be helpful.

 

[Anonymous]

By all means dump the liverock into the display tank, no reason now to hold off and you might as well get any ammonia spikes out of the way before you add any fish.

I would also raise the SG to 1.025-6 which is closer to natural seawater. Yes I know the LFS probably told to to keep it lower but in reality that's also a stessor for fish. There are reasons to keep a lowered SG (mostly to help treat disease) but it isn't good practice for the long run.

Guy's advice (as usual) is spot-on. I'd also add another book for when you start thinking about adding coral:

Aquarium Corals by Eric Borneman

Keep us posted and good luck!

 

[Anonymous]

Ok I'm took the advice and put the LR in my main tank. Other than the skimmer going nuts for about an hour things look good. The water has cleared up and I have ordered a pump for a closed loop system. Thanks to all for your input and please feel free to continue.

 

[cjsrch]

50 more lbs of lr. and never touch sand bed.

let tank finish cycle my tank took a month to cycle " the live rock way" altho i did have 3 dansuls in there after the first week.... naibor gve to me and i couldent say no ( he was gonna kill them saying they arnt worth a trip to lfs to sell or even give them back)

but they were fine

but still 5 weeks of cycleing then you go thou the algae cycle lol

get a refugium ( under tank) and ditch the cascade filter

make the refuge if possiable add some calurpa ( unless you live in cali where it is illigal to own)


turn off skimmer during cucle ( DONT KILLME FOR SAYINGF THIS GUYS!!!)
turning off skimmer and raising ammonia is a good thing as it bouild the population of bactiria faster. im a firm beliver that this will speeed up cycle and if you dont care about the lr you can turn up the heat a few degrees as it will speed it up as well ( decay on the rock will happen faster)

my new 150 i have actualy poured micro vert by kentmarine in to the tank to keep the cycle going while i wait for lr and such i want 100 percent of the life on lr to live so im gonna have my cycle already going so the rock wont go throu stresses of a cycle ( sorry babbling but i do as the lfs guys say " know my sh**" i know you all say dont trust them but alot know more then you think.... but they dont show it cause htey are on a lil thing called COMMISION)

hey oas12 why dont you make a tank thread in the members tank area. we can compare tanks as we start and see if we go throu same algae cycles and such since my new 150 will be started around same time as you are ( see link in my signiture)

 

[Anonymous]

cjsrch

The fuge is out for right now just no available space. I plan on building a new in wall tank, but the funding is the issue there. I will post a thread in the members tank area it will work as a log and be great to compare. I have bio-rings and carbon in the cascade filter.

Lawdawg

I am going to raise the SG over the next couple of days. I would love to add coral but I will have to update lighting first. I do not have MH lights but I do have a PC unit with 260w of lights in route cost was right. MH lighting is in the near future.

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

I am going to raise the SG over the next couple of days.

A safe reliable way to raise salinity is to simply use normal saltwater for topoff.

 

[cjsrch]

raise it to around 1.03 sg for salt


and as for lighting... screw mh i used to have my signiture say "ill set it out side befor i go halid" use vho or t5 and if some one tells ya pc put out twice as much light spit on them for me..... just cause there bent dosnt mean they put out more light.. its just same light in less space 10 wat is still 10 wat

yeah. and if you plan for an inwall ( im assuming ditching your current tank) use vho as you can continue to use it on bigger tank since it isnt limited to a specific bulb length watage or type. ( and if u want halid on bigger tank use vho as actinics. )
if ya get new tank mae sure it is atleast 2 ft wide lol the 13 inch of a 55 gallon pissed me off ha

 

[Anonymous]

raise it to around 1.03 sg for salt

You are kidding, right? That's quite a bit higher than reputable people recommend. What's your reasoning?

Here's a good article by Bob Fenner:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/spg_salinity.htm

As a general rule, marine systems are best maintained between a specific gravity of 1.020 and 1.025, avoiding changes of more than a thousandth a day.

Fish only systems are frequently kept at artificially low specific gravities (1.017-1.020) commercially for three principal benefits. 1) Cost of salt mix is less; even "natural" water that has to be hauled may be diluted with fresh at a savings. 2) Parasite and microbial levels are reduced; they can't make the osmotic stretch as well as macro-life. 3) Gas solubility is enhanced; increasing capacity, health. The margin of safety in rapid-adjusting fishes to new spg is dependent on several factors, especially their adaptive state. Take care to use a hydrometer to measure the water new charges come in and adjust them over a number of days to system spg (another reason for a quarantine/hospital tank).

Fishes (et alia res.) that originate from the Red Sea, parts of the Indian Ocean where natural specific gravity is high (@ 1.027), Achilles tangs, seahorses, and several types that live in close conjunction with invertebrates (e.g. clown anemone fishes) are exceptions that bear mentioning. These require consistent, higher range densities (1.023-1.025) to fare well.

Systems with invertebrates, algae, and most types of "live rock" similarly appreciate upper range values and stability

 

[cjsrch]

natural sea water is 1.03 in alot of area's off the coast of ft lauderdale fl 1.032
that stuff the premade salt water ina jug natural ocean or what ever htey call it is at around 1.036

 

[Anonymous]

natural sea water is 1.03 in alot of area's off the coast of ft lauderdale fl 1.032
that stuff the premade salt water ina jug natural ocean or what ever htey call it is at around 1.036

At what temperature?

The typical Salinity where most of our animals come from varies from 35ppt to 38ppt. IMO anywhere in that range is fine.

Florida typically has a lower salinity in my experience. Where did you get your numbers?

 

[cjsrch]

dive boat
with a hydrometer. i know not the most accurat thing but... its accurat enough at my house. where water is cooler

the natures ocean or waht ever it is... ( they make live sand also) i tested at home at 78 degrees and it was at 1.03 SG
remember SG and PPT are compleatly different

 

[Anonymous]

the natures ocean or waht ever it is... ( they make live sand also) i tested at home at 78 degrees and it was at 1.03 SG
remember SG and PPT are compleatly different

PPT can be easily derived given the temperature. 1.030 would definately surprise me except in a lagoon that is land-locked part of the day. Are you using a glass hydrometer? They are usually accurate . If you're using a swing-arm hydrometer then that explains your results. They are rarely accurate.

 

[Anonymous]

dive boat
with a hydrometer. i know not the most accurat thing but... its accurat enough at my house. where water is cooler

the natures ocean or waht ever it is... ( they make live sand also) i tested at home at 78 degrees and it was at 1.03 SG
remember SG and PPT are compleatly different

:lol: How accurate is your hydrometer and testing methods? Did you compensate for temperature before you came to this conclusion? Before you make a blanket statement about something, especially in a new reefkeeper's forum, you really should do a little more research, other than a one-time personal observation.

Here's a link to a 1998 report on the Keys sanctuary where they tested many water parameters at different places and depths and times. It's a .pdf file so I can't hot link to the page where they list the salinity, but you can go there yourself, it's on page 12.

You'll see the salinity varies from place to place and time to time, which is quite normal.

http://serc.fiu.edu/wqmnetwork/Report%2 ... 8FKNMS.pdf

 

[cjsrch]

ill do it again but i am 100 percent sure that during the summer of 04 the salility was 1.032 we kept our house at 76- 79 degrees and the water was in a sealed container so no evap cooling would of happend there for the water was in that tempp range as well.
my hydromiter compared to a refractomiter is only off give or take 0.001
so then the water was either at 1.031 or 32 or 33 in the jug. and the jug comes from the coast of florida i belive since they are stationed in ft lauderdale lol

when i get MY OWN refractomiter ill compare again
but lets all agree on this. 1.022 is to low

 

[Anonymous]

lets all agree on this. 1.022 is to low

Yep!

 

[Anonymous]

lets all agree on this. 1.022 is to low

Yep!

:wink: as an everyday ordinary reef tank thing, I agree that's low unless of course you are intentionally keeping the SG low to treat parasites...in other words broad generalizations should be avoided which statement is itself a generalization :lol:.