How the hell does one build a Sump/Refugium?

[mr_X]

Another thing I was thinking about the side bulk-head is maybe it's easier to secure it that way. Otherwise you have to mount a good piece of glass or acrylic on top that will hold the hose still... and hook a sock to if you want etc.


See.. this is exactly the sorta thing I don't want to happen and why I ask a lot of questions before I buy anything. What IF... I decided I did the bulkhead wrong... I'd have to clean the entire thing out if I setup a fuge, empty all the water out, etc. and then redo it. That would be bad.

i have mine draining right into the top-nothing holding it at all. when i used flexible tubing for a drain, i had it coming in the top as well. there is no pressure through the drain, it doesn't flop around like a firehose.
as far as filter socks, they make holders specifically for them that hang over the side, and also hold your drain line too.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

$30-$50 for one of those. I'm not sure what the size diff. has to do with it. I read one guy said it wouldn't fit his. I'm thinking it might not fit the rim of a tank.. b/c they are made for acrylic sumps. I also saw a guy make one from scratch using zip-tied pieces of egg-crate to make a square with a center in it for the sock.

I remember my old OVB had the standpipe with slits cut in it. Made sense there since the only way for water to get in and drain down would be just through the top. But in the sump maybe the guy did to increase flow but for diff. reasons. It might help increase flow giving it so many places to come out. I emailed him to ask a lot of these questions. I'll share what he says.

Right now.. I'm leaning towards traditional.. skimmer--fuge--return. Probably will set it up with a sock yea. I'm debating putting the skimmer in the middle. I'm wondering if I need to do maintenance I might have trouble getting to it... ? ... PLUS if I get a tank that is 18-20" high it might be even harder to get my hand in there to the bottom. If not impossible. I'll have to think about this b/c I want the biggest tank possible.

 

[mr_X]

that zip tied egg crate thing looked like crap to me...lol. i paid 14.95 for a filter sock holder thing. they must be some real fancy ones for 50 bucks!

skimmer in the middle?..and what is in the first chamber?
skimmer in the first chamber with the drain/sock is the best way. you can't have a drain into your refugium- it will make nothing but a mess. if the drain comes inat the middle section with the skimmer, how will you get the water out? 2 return pumps? :?

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Yea.. some sorta 1/2 metal one. I saw the all acrylic one at one place for $25 but that had 1 sock with it.. so I guess that's about $15 then.

Ooops... I meant return in the middle.
I asked that guy if that's what he is doing with water coming into the fuge. Even tho he said that it might have been an error. That's where I'm at now... skimmer 1st. I noticed with a lot of these sumps they are too small for most skimmers. I'll have to pick one first and verify all the space requirements. Some are saw are almost too big for a tank too. You have to put them sideways to fit them. I just thought about the fact that even though tanks are 12" wide that includes 2 pieces of glass. So now we're down to about 11.5". And I think one of those sock holders I saw is meant for a "thin" acyrlic sump. THe clip wasn't wide enough for a tank with a lip around the top. But I saw the "berlin" sock holder with a bigger clip.

So I guess I'm down to just a few details and then I'm ready.

 

[mr_X]

i don't even use the sock holder anymore..i just use the filter sock's plastic lip on top and wedge it between the skimmer and the tank side. it works perfect. like you said- it fit good on my 40 gallon sump, but not on the 125.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

That's a good idea. Saves money, planning, and frees you up to put it wherever it fits. Otherwise it's such a tight space to fit a good skimmer.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008- ... /index.php

Good RK article here talks about not using socks, bio-balls , etc. at the end. Interesting. Somebody just gave me a link to some "skimmerless" systems. That's a first for me. Never heard of that. Au-natural. I don't use a lot of additives, supplements. I want to make everything as easy as possible. After reading this about socks that's why I questioned it's purpose. I guess he siphons out his sump if there's any debris in it. I've also heard about people doing water changes once every 1-3 months. RK is down now but the TOTM tank of the months have a lot of interesting setups like this.

 

[mr_X]

easy= use a skimmer

i don't use any additives or suppliments. just a waterchange once a week.

if you have a very small bio load, you can get away with 1 waterchange a month...but if you are like most people who get into this hobby, you want a few fish in your tank...
is it really that hard to do a waterchange?

i suggest against monthly waterchanges. the trace elements, calcium, will all be depleted eentually out of your water, not to mention the nutrients will build up. how will you remove them? your tank will eventually be an algae ridden nightmare.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

I'm really open-minded about any ideas... now matter how radical. But I tend to gravitate towards taking advice from people who can show results. And if you look at what those guys are doing at reefkeeping and those TOTM tanks... they all use skimmers. A lot of them use socks too I might add.

Those guys tanks... are just beautiful. I don't think it's possible to get more growth and color on their corals. Plus they are full stocked with fish. And one of those TOTM said he could go 2-3 months on water changes. And some do weekly, bi-weekly, monthly. Just have to analyze their methods, bio-loads, equipment. But there's definitely diff. ways to do things that do WORK... even skimmerless setups.

Nutrients... I hardly never see a setup without a refugium. Always see skimmers too. People who get to the level of a TOTM tend to have calcium reactors too. A lot of stuff I don't plan on doing.

 

[mr_X]

i've also seen a nano that became tank of the month. no calcium reactor on that one!

the beauty of a tank has alot to do with the time it's been running too. none of those tanks you mentioned are 3 months old either. most of them are mature sps dominated tanks, with alot of designer corals.
if you want a TOTM, then you need to spend money, and alot of time.
those guys aren't the types to buy a used tank from craigslist, toss a light over it, a couple frags, glance at it once in a while ...and whamo! 6 months later they show up on AA magazine.

most who come into this hobby brand new(myself included), make mistakes- overload their systems, buy sub-standard equiptment, incorrect lighting, incompatable livestock...
i'm willing to be that some, possibly even most of those TOTM folks did the same at some point.

if you want that sort of situation at your house, i suggest buying the top of the line equiptment, and also the top of the line corals only.
i'm a firm believer, after my very short time with reeftanks, that the more nutrient export you have, the better off you are.
i went to a local reefer's house over the summer and bought some frags from him. my girlfriend and i immediately noticed that his fish were very "skinny". he mentioned feeding them about once a week.
this guy doesn't need to do the waterchanges i do. he came to my house and saw my tank- he immediately laughed and called my fish fat. he told me that in the wild, fish don't get to eat every day. food is not as available as i make it for my fish. i don't agree with that at all. my fish look massive and healthy, as do my corals. i would rather do extra waterchanges than skip feedings. this is something you'll have to decide for yourself.
meanwhile, i utilize a large refugium, and a skimmer. i also have increased my total water volume by 50 percent by adding a large sump.
and finally, i've added another 30 gallon frag tank to my system, which will increase the total water volume that much more.

But I tend to gravitate towards taking advice from people who can show results

my tank is 4 months old give or take. tell me...can i show results?

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Ca+ reactors are say... diff. than maybe a Phos one or say additives. Most of this stuff is not necessary. People who sell this crap want to convince us how important it is. But Ca+ you have to have. A reactor is just supposed to be an easier way to do it. But I think it's pretty much for advanced users. I'll try it maybe one day years from now if I ever get a tank bigger than 90 gal.

If you have a tank less than 1 year old you might want to try weekly, or bi-weekly water changes. My tank is 7 years old.. and 3 since the last hurricane when a lot was damaged b/c of power loss for over a week. If anything I'm gonna start experimenting with going over monthly water changes once I get things straightened out.

I think that guy is wrong. Fish eat everyday... some 2-3 times a day. Just may not be a big meal each time. Stuff is constantlly dieing or falling pray. So there's lots of food on a reef. Maybe open water sharks and whatnot might eat once a week since trhey patrol the vast open oceans. THe only skinny fish in the wild are the ones are about to die or look so weakly they get attacked.

You got any pics share them yea.

 

[mr_X]

You got any pics share them yea.

click the build thread link....i have a few pics there :wink:

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Saw that. So all of that is just a 4 month old tank? And you haven't had a lot of stuff die? Good coralline growth. THis is your first time and that's a 4 mo. old tank? That's what I thought I read.... if I'm not mistaken. I saw some of your hw setup too. Impressive. I still think weekly water changes are overkill... possibly even for a 4mo old tank. But it won't hurt till you get sick of doing that every week.

 

[mr_X]

i dumped the livestock from my 125 in there...but that was only a year or so old. i only lost a couple shrimp through the whole move.
the reason i do the weekly waterchanges is because i feed heavily, and i do keep some sps. in order to keep my calcium up i do this. i don't check my trace element levels, so i hope to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

it's not tiring in the least, doing a waterchange. my 55 gallon drum is filled during the week. i add the salt a couple nights before, and run a powerhead and a heater in it till i am ready to do the change. i shut down my return and run a 700gph pump to vacuum out the return area of the sump right into the sink, then toss the pump in the drum, and fill it back up. the process takes me 10 minutes and i barely get my hands wet.

you saw my "hw" setup?

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

HW... hardware... sumps and plumbing.

Sounds easy. I bought a really long siphon that uses the sink pressure but I couldn't get it to connect to any of my faucets. I forgot the brand but it's the really popular one. So it'll create a siphon using the faucet but you still need a pump to put water back in. I'm not 100% sure I have the setup I want to do water changes yet.

 

[mr_X]

i know that siphon you mention. i used to have one a few years ago.
meanwhile, just go buy a cheap pump for changing water..look online for a used mag7 or quiet one...

 

[Mthompson]

he told me that in the wild, fish don't get to eat every day. food is not as available as i make it for my fish.

That guy should study up on his fisheries science a bit. If fish only ate once a week, they would never grow, never be able to spawn, and cease to exist. Wild fish spend their entire day searching/finding food and eating - using one or several strategies, which is more a function of the type of fish - i.e. piscivore, moluscivore, omnivore, herbivore, etc. Wild fish may not have the guaranteed supply that captive fish have, nor may it be the same quality (which is debatable - natural vs. man-made diets?), but they definitely eat every day!

As scifi noted....a skinny fish in the wild is a diseased or parasitized individual. Most fishes' first response to pathogens or parasites is to stop feeding. If they do not get over the disease, then they starve to the point that they die or cannot escape predation and get eaten.



As for the sump....keep it simple.

I use 4 baffles.....

- First one from the skimmer side is raised 2 inches off the bottom forcing water under, the same height as the fourth (tallest two). This helps remove micro bubbles as they float out the top of chamber 1 and not down and under baffle 1. It also helps keep the organic compounds you are trying to skim in that chamber longer for more effective skimming.

- Second is on the bottom and 3/4" from the first, forcing water up and it is slightly higher than the third.

- Third is on the bottom and slightly lower than the second, this sets the water depth in the fuge area.

- Fourth is off the bottom and the same height as the first, forcing water down into the return chamber, effectively removing the micro-bubbles.


As for deciding what height to make the baffles, in order to leave enough room for the overflow from your tank in the event of a power outage....

- first find out the volume of the display....(L x W x H inches)/231 = tank tank gallons (1 gallon = 231 cu. in.)

- Second find the volume in one inch of display water....tanks gallons/H = gallons per inch

- Third measure the depth to which water will drain....usually the lowest return tubing (mine) or overflow.

- Fourth multiply drainage depth (inches) by gallons per inch....tada....amount of space you need in the sump so that it does not overflow to your floor.

- Fifth, repeat steps 1 and 2 for the sump......then.....H of sump - (drainage gallons/gallons per inch for sump) = height of baffle 3.


I have attached an excel file for you to input your numbers, and see my sump design.

Hope this helps....good luck. And remember you can over-think this (I did) just measure twice/cut once....and it will work just fine!

Later

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Oh man. I'm actually thinking of making it much simpler than this. I was just looking at a cheap Turboflotor skimmer and it says it's most effective between 5-7" water I think? So I was gonna base it on that. I know a lot of people use a 8-9" depth and raise the skimmer if they have to. I want to use 1 more baffle too before #1. Just one more. Is it totally necessary.. no.. but I figure I'd just do it and move on... not research it any more. I saw another skimmer that said it likes 7-9" I think. To be as compatible as possible it's probably best to do 6-8" or so and use a platform for the skimmer if you have to.

Never seen anybody have the baffles so they went down in height as you go. So your #2 is lower than #3. I didn't think that was necessary.

I see what you're doing though. FIgure it all out before you start using it. But I think this 18-20" tall tank would be fine especially if I only used 9" of it.. should be plenty for reserve(overflow). So I don't have to worry about that. And I thought even in a scenario where my ATO failed it should be able to handle another 5-10 gal from that too... maybe.

Another thing I thought was interesting in the http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/newbie/index.php RK article on sumps was the siphon protection drilling holes in the returns at the tank water level. Anybody doing that? It's 3/4 the way down the article.

I guess I'm ready to do it. Make a final decision about a skimmer... check out the water level requirements maybe... or just go with 7-8" water level.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Now I'm finding out that dumping 5 gal of RO/DI water into my 90 gal tank isn't good. I didn't know. I'm not gonna put 1 gallon a day in just a little at a time every 1-2 hours. But the people helping me here didn't tell me not to put it all in. I waited for the sump to get low about 5-7 days and then put 5 gal in. Well apparantly even though it doesn't matter what the pH is on RO/DI water you can't put that much in all at once. I've been doing that for months.

 

[mr_X]

i don't think the number 1 baffle in that diagram is necessary. the bubbles will be all over that intake section. they will go under that baffle and rise to the top, where they will just pour over the second baffle. even with a filter sock, i still have alot of bubbles in the first section from my skimmer exhaust. not to mention, the refugium really won't be effected much by some bubbles. the last baffles are the important ones.

as far as -using half of the tank, and the other half should be enough for some overflow...that depends on a few things.
1. your returns. are they drilled to prevent a reverse siphon? if they are drilled, how deep under the surface are these holes? what size display is this(2 inches of water from a 200 gallon tank is alot more than 2 inches from a 10 gallon tank)
2. your skimmer also fills with water when it is on. when the power goes out, do you have room for that to empty as well?

--if you don't have holes drilled in your return lines just below the water level inside the display tank, when the power goes out, the water inside these lines will create a reverse siphon that will stop when it eventually does suck air- for me that's about a foot down. a foot of water inside a 5' tank is alot.