Help..my clownfish is ill and don't know what it is!

[picklednut]

Hi

I've only had my marine saltwater aquarium two weeks and purchased two clownfish last Saturday and added them to my tank. They looked perfectly fine on the Saturday. On the Sunday I noticed one of the clownfish had a black/grey blob at the base of its fin underneath its gills. By Monday this blob had turned into a slightly cotton wool appear but then seemed to get slightly better on Tues (i.e. the cotton wool appearance disappeared). Today it looks like the blob has got bigger and is a collection of small black / grey bumps. I've attached a picture but its not very clear.

Apart from the blob on the clownfish's fin it is fine in itself, it's swimming about a lot and also eating.

What is wrong with my fish and how do I cure it?

Thanks in advance

 

[Anonymous]

Hm, I've not seen anything quite like that. Reminds me a bit of lymphocystis, but.. gray. Odd. Have you read anything about quarantine? It's a good habit to get into.

The fish looks really pretty darned healthy otherwise.

 

[brandonberry]

I'd try treating it with an antibiotic in a seperate tank, at the minimum. Even if it is not a bacterial infection, it will likely get a secondary infection from the wound. Try to get some more close up pics of the wound, if possible. Hold off on adding anything else to the tank.

 

[Anonymous]

What antibiotic would you suggest? Gram negative, gram positive..? Broad spectrum? What if it's actually related to something like lymphocystis and is thusly viral? What if it's parasitic? Fungal? Is this something you've seen before and had experience with? If so.. what is it? I have never seen anything like what this person has described before so wouldn't have a clue as how to proceed beyond observation and keeping the fish in the best quality water possible and feeding them as well as possible.

It sounds like this person is very new to this whole thing, which is why I would hesitate to simply recommend something like an antibiotic treatment without a lot more information or giving them a great deal more information.

Pickle, the more photos the better, and at this point I suggest sending the resized (300x400px) photos to wetwebmedia.com as well as posting on here.

People need information to help you. The first thing everyone wants to know are your water parameters. The following are the basics, but it can (and often does) become more complex from here:

Temperature
Specific gravity
pH
Ammonia level
Nitrite level
Nitrate level

Stats about the system--tank size, filtration, how you've set it up (as in sand vs. crushed coral? Live rock?), what pumps used, and so on. Be ready to hear a lot of opinions on how it's set up. There's a great deal of collective experience here and on WWM.

Right now we know you've had a saltwater tank "set up" for two weeks and you have two clownfish. THAT'S IT. That is not enough. What are you feeding them? How long were they in the shop before you bought them? Were they feeding? Have they undergone any type of quarantine?

I've found this site that attempts a flow chart at disease diagnosis. I've never used it so I have no idea how useful the information is (assuming you haven't also tried searching here).
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html

 

[brandonberry]

I would probably recommend tetracycline because it is a broad spectrum antibiotic capable of killing both gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Even if it is parasitic or fungal, it can still contribute to a secondary infection. If nothing else, this could buy some time until it is decided what the best way to treat the primary cause is.

 

[FinalPhaze987]

What antibiotic would you suggest? Gram negative, gram positive..? Broad spectrum? What if it's actually related to something like lymphocystis and is thusly viral? What if it's parasitic? Fungal?

I agree with seamaiden in holding off on any treatment. I highly doubt this individual has a gram stain test handy so we can be sure we dont know. A broad spectrum antibiotic, i would imagine, would create future resistance against any other sickness should this fis succumb to another treatable infection, not to mention wipe out any natural flora the fish may have if it is not bacterial. I am not certain if they have any antivirals for fish, as the number of antivirals they actually make for humans are dismal, if they do, im SURE their costly. If it is parasitic copper is an option, but then again we are not sure what it actually is. Im not sure how it is for fish, but i know with humans, if you treat them with an antifungal without a present infection you can get into a whole mess of danger...i.e. oral Lamasil...

As mentioned before..do look up articles in wetwebmedia..i find their pages really helpfull when i have an odd situation i feel not too many people would know about..I personally have never seen this, but would advise against treating the condition until your positive what it is. Good luck..

 

[Anonymous]

I would probably recommend tetracycline because it is a broad spectrum antibiotic capable of killing both gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Even if it is parasitic or fungal, it can still contribute to a secondary infection. If nothing else, this could buy some time until it is decided what the best way to treat the primary cause is.

Well, that's a start. I think Pickle might need more information than that, though.

 

[camaroracer214]

hate to be that guy, but a tank that is only two weeks old is not ready for fish. the tank has to cycle and mature before any living organism is placed in there. your fish is having problems because your tank isn't ready for fish. when a fish is placed into a tank with poor water quality, it gets stressed out. a fish that is stressed will have a suppressed immune system making it more susceptible to diseases, infections, etc. please do not add anymore fish until your tank parameters are properly under control and the clownfish has been treated and cured of its problems.

 

[brandonberry]

More info would definitely be helpful. I disagree with many of Finalphaze987's conclusions and feel that they are very speculative and not backed up by any scientific evidence.

I agree with camaroracer that the tank is probably not ready for fish, at least not any more. That is part of the reason I mentioned before not to add any more fish, aside from the obvious reason of the potential infection. I'm not sure that is the reason for the clown's ailment, but it probably isn't helping matters any.

 

[FinalPhaze987]

More info would definitely be helpful. I disagree with many of Finalphaze987's conclusions and feel that they are very speculative and not backed up by any scientific evidence.

I agree with camaroracer that the tank is probably not ready for fish, at least not any more. That is part of the reason I mentioned before not to add any more fish, aside from the obvious reason of the potential infection. I'm not sure that is the reason for the clown's ailment, but it probably isn't helping matters any.

Not backed up by scientific evidence? How about 4 years of medical school, with 1 more year to go till im a Pharmacist...not an RPh, a PharmD. Ive worked in a pharmacy for 7 years, in patient and outpatient. Ive dispensed enough meds to give everyone on the west coast 3 pills and enough syrups, tinctures, and suspensions to fill a lake...

What i had stated is not based upon my own conclusions, it is meerely a vague insight on what is accepted in the medical community.

Unless he decides to dose in a qt tank, Tetracycline would not be the anitmicrobial of choice due to the fact that Ca, Mg, NaHCO3, and Al all interfere with absorbtion. If parameters are within reasonable ranges (Ca 380-400 Mg 1100-1300 ppm) he would have to more than double his dose of TCN which would wreak havok on normal flora in the tank itself. If a broad spectrum antibiotic must be used for prevention of sepsis, Erthromycin would be a much better choice due to the fewer "fishtank sideeffects". Something from the penicillin would be ideal but i am not sure if they make it for marine use.

Ill know i dont know everything there is to reefing, but like everyone else here, im here to learn.

Meds, now thats what i do everyday... by no way is this a retalliation by flashing credentials nor am i trying to challenge the knowledge of anyone here. Just simply saying, "It is backed up by scientific evidence"

 

[shavo]

yo chill out on adding fish for now the tank is 2 weeks old it needs to cycle!!! have you tested anything?
give out some specs on what your tank is doing right now!!!

where is this thread going with where people went to school and where they work, were trying to help out a little fish.

"she blinded me with science!!"

 

[Anonymous]

Wow.. Final, I just got myself an education there! I knew that there were issues using tetracycline and, for instance (hope I'm remembering this correctly) the use of birth control pills. Had NO idea that Ca levels would have an effect on its use aquatically.

I do believe penicillin is available for aquatic use, but considering how widely all these antibiotics are used prophylactically in the industry, I question their ultimate efficacy.

Right now I'm wondering why the new pickle on the block hasn't been back.

My stance and experience is that it's usually not a good idea to just start throwing medications at a problem in the hopes that it'll have a positive effect. It's just as likely it could have a negative effect. And, looking at the single photo provided, outside of that little funky growth, the fish, we've got to admit, looks great (couldn't look better, otherwise).

Pickle, where are you? :lol:

 

[picklednut]

Hi All

Thanks for your responses.

For some more clarity of my marine set-up. I have purchased a 120 litre tank and lined the bottom with coral sand and added live rock. I also have two powerheads to circulate the water around the live rocks. I have a protein skimmer fitted to the tank as well as it having a built-in sponge-filtration filter. I purchased cycled saltwater from the marine fish stockists and let the water settle for a week. The temperature is set to 26c and I have regularly checked the ammonia / nitrate levels which were 0. I have T-5 lights fitted to the top of the tank.

I purchased the two clownfish and added these to the tank a week later along with a "medusa" soft coral. Apart the blob on the fish it is fine in all other ways, it is eating and swimming about the tank fine.

I made sure I asked several questions and quizzed the guy at the marine fish stockists to make sure my tank was set up correctly before adding any of the fish.

I will try to get some more pics of the fish.

Hope this help.

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Good to see you back, Pickle. How are the fish today?

The sponge filter is providing both mechanical and biological filtration in addition to the live rock, was that what came cycled? Salt water itself isn't exactly "cycled" (that is to say populated with the species of bacteria associated with biological filtration, and more specifically oxidation of nitrogenous wastes), but it can be aged, which is definitely preferable. The reason I say this is because these bacteria are benthic, meaning that they are attached to surfaces, substrata.

This means that you do NOT want to scrub out or clean the tank heavily at this point. Do not stir up the sand vigorously or vacuum it heavily (for me, not at all).

As long as your fish are looking good and your parameters are stable, I would do some searching before attempting any sort of treatment. Please, do look into devising some sort of quarantine for future purchases. As others suggest, do wait before making any more additions to the tank, making sure all is stable, make small additions and only after a proper quarantine.

Looking forward to seeing the pictures.

 

[SnowManSnow]

i have a habbit of letting my fish stay in the tank (if they have been in there a while) when one becomes a little ill. my fish have a habbit of getting better too

You have to weigh the stress of the fish just having a sore spot agaist catching it... medicating it... and quarentening it.. then putting it back.

I would only quarenteen NEW fish. Just my opinion though.

 

[picklednut]

Hi

Thanks again for the replies. Unfortunately no luck in getting any more pictures. I've tried to take some more but the little fishes are healthy swimmers and I end up with blurred pictures.

Seamaiden, not sure entirely about the saltwater, as I bought the saltwater when I purchased my tank from the shop I presumed it was "safe" and had all the processes done to it in order for the tank to be habitable.

As the "blobby" fish is still swimming about and is perfectly happy in itself I'm thinking of giving it a few more days and see if it gets better by itself (as suggested by SnowManSnow). This sounds like a really stupid way of describing what is wrong with my fish but it almost looks like it is shedding part of its skin, almost like what a reptile would do, but obviously its not a reptile!

I'm thinking of doing a fresh water change this weekend to help the water parameters. Just two quick questions -

1) What equipments / kits do I need to test the water and how often should this be done?
2) I was told by the fish shop that as I have a protein skimmer fitted to the tank there was no need to put in the sponges in the mechanical filter within the tank? Is this correct?

Thanks in advance..I really do appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

 

[FinalPhaze987]

The medusa coral had to be fed since they are nonphotosynthetic. Be carefull not to overfeed your tank at this time since your bacterial population is still building.

Try and post pics of the fish on wetweb...if they dont know what it is they can point you in the direction of someone who does. Do avoid medications that say things such as "general antibiotic" as these will also wipe out the bacterial population you are trying to build on. Avoid anything that says "24 hour treatment" or something you only have to dose once, as these will not alleviate your problem. IMO it may make it worse.

Any tetracycline IME should not be used because of what i stated above,
Cephalosporins have the same interaction with calcium as TCN (which is why we can not take milk or antacids with Cipro) If you should decide to get hard corals it can inhibit calcification. A good example is looking at the teeth of a person who took TCN regularly as a child..they become discolored and signifigantly smaller than those of a normal individual...


IF you find out what you have on your hands is bacterial, i would suggest macrolide if available, just make sure your pH stays stable, as these tend to become unstable in basic conditions.

Sulfa drugs and ,as seamaiden said, penicillins may be available so look into those as well.

By the way seamaiden, your correct in the adverse effects with birth control ...as do penicillins...good point..not too many people know that.

 

[Anonymous]

It seems that pn has a lot of reading to do. I don't think I can advise you on test kits since it appears you're in the U.K., maybe there's someone there who will know what's available for best prices, etc.

I have to get ready for a motorcycle trip to San Francisco.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm thinking of doing a fresh water change this weekend to help the water parameters. Just two quick questions -

1) What equipments / kits do I need to test the water and how often should this be done?
2) I was told by the fish shop that as I have a protein skimmer fitted to the tank there was no need to put in the sponges in the mechanical filter within the tank? Is this correct?

Thanks in advance..I really do appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

picklednut,

:welcome:

I am unsure of the level of your knowledge on keeping a marine tank, so if I get too basic, please forgive me. The key to sucess in this hobby is to learn as much as possible about the processes that go on in the tank. I cannot stress enough the importance of learning how things work and why they are necessary. You must understand what's going on in order to fix (or prevent) a problem. If you don't understand the "whys", then you will end up in all liklihood killing livestock, spending tons of money and wondering why the tank doesn't look like those pictures you see on reefsdotorg

For instance, a prior poster noted that your tank has only been set up a short time. Putting livestock in before the tank has "cycled" fully will make for problems unless certain steps are taken, and even then the outcome can be unpleasant-especially for the fish! So, I will post some links to articles that cover some of your questions about why we test the waters, and what we test for. Keeping water quality high is one of the most important things you can do for your tank.

Nice article on water quality:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/watrqualmar.htm


Secondly, an introduction to the nitrogen cycle, or "cycling process" you will hear us refer to frequently. It describes the microbial activity that converts toxic waste (ammonia) through stages into nitrate which is less problematic.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionit ... 073199.htm

Here is a link to an article that describes, in short, the cycling process and mechanical filtration. It touches on your question about the skimmer vs. the sponge you mentioned. I'll say more on that below.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... ginner.htm

Another one on the basics:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/reefsysi.htm

As far as testing goes:
To start with you do have a hydrometer to check the specific gravity of the saltwater in your tank? If not, RUN don't walk to the store and get one and test those levels. (Fresh) Water evaporates from the tank on a daily basis, but the salt remains so the specific gravity of the tank will rise, causing issues with the tank's inhabitants. Most people add freshwater on a daily basis (depending upon the rate of evaporation) to keep the specific gravity "SG" as it is termed stable. You said you were purchasing your saltwater premixed, so you need to be extra careful the SG in your tank matches the SG of the stuff you bring home premixed. Also the pH should be close if not exactly the same. Any extreme changes brought on by adding water that has different parameters to your tank can cause a real problem.

An article on SG:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/spg_salinity.htm

Now, since your tank has probably not cycled, I would continue to check the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate every day if possible, or at least every other day. Mostly because I anticipate your tank will spike ammonia, and if so it can be mitigated somewhat by doing large water changes. I would test the Ph every few days as well. I can't recommend specific test kits as I don't know what is available wherever it is you are.

Now, the skimmer question. A skimmer operates by taking out dissolved organic guck before it can decay in the tank.

Here's how and why they work:
http://www.reefs.org/library/faq/skimmer.html

The sponge works to trap big particles, and gives some home to the beneficial bacteria mentioned in the above cycling articles. But, unless you clean that sponge regularly, all it will do is trap stuff until it decays. I think that is what your LFS meant by saying you didn't need the sponge.

Enough for now, hope I haven't bored you and everyone else to tears.

 

[Nemo2007]

FinalPhaze987,
"Any tetracycline IME should not be used because of what i stated above,
Cephalosporins have the same interaction with calcium as TCN (which is why we can not take milk or antacids with Cipro)"

I just happened to be passing through when I noticed this stream. I like what you had to say and found it largely accurate. It seems when a dissenting view is presented in some of these forums, there seems to be a hasty attempt to disqualify the opposing view. We are all here to learn and perhaps share what we have learned.

That being said, Cipro or ciproloxacin is a fluoroquinolone and not a cephalosporin. To the lay person that probably does not mean much but to you I imagine it does.

To pickle,
Learn to quarantine new fish. It's not an absolute in the hobby but until I learned to quarantine, I lost many a good fish.