• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

Location
Brooklyn
Rating - 100%
30   0   0
So I just did a test of alkalinity, calcium, pH, and salinity. Everything was pretty much perfect except for alkalinity which was wayyyy high around 13.1 - 13.4. I did a 50% water change and cleaned all of my sand. I waited a few hours and then re-tested my alkalinity and it was pretty much the same! What can I do?!
 

OzoneParkGuy

Advanced Reefer
Location
Ozone Park
Rating - 100%
88   0   0
Do another water change in another week and retest before the water change and then a day after to compare the param's. You also should post the water parameter numbers like PH, and also test for Mag. High alk can cause low calcium, and you can have a low ph. Even vise versa. It becomes tricky. Unless your tank like mines runs at the high range of things. (High Cal High Alk) Also you didn't specify how much are you dosing, what are you dosing(brand). If you are dosing then you are dosing to much and stop. The top off water should bring it down. There are alot of things to mention before we can really help.
 
Location
Brooklyn
Rating - 100%
30   0   0
Ok. The pH when I tested was about 8.3. I'm not dosing as of now because all I have is a few frags, a cardinal fish, a small clown fish, 2 sea urchins, and a few snails. I will re-test all levels later tonight and post the numbers then.
 

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hi sillysidewinder. I'm going to suggest a bit of a backtrack first.

so to cover all bases that might give you a false or correct (but out of ideal range) reading, I'll go through some obvious and not so obvious stuff (appologies if im getting you to suck eggs here).

1. First of all the test kit...Is in date, have you factord the +/- variance of the kit thats usually listed somewhere in the instructions...ie if the variance is +/- 1dkh then your reading may mean 14 or 12. if its 12, then thats not so bad as its just at the very upper end of the normally allowable range (allowable being slightly wider than the standard 8-10 'ideal' range for non ULNS systems).
2. does the kit come with a referance solution that shows you that specific kits true variance (salifert being a case in point)...if not then you need to find/beg/borrow a referance solution to verify the kit, or at least find out how far out it is (most kits are to some degree or other) but its crucial to know if its up or down and by how much.

If that all checks out, then you have a verified DkH level which you can trust and act on accordingly. At the same time (using the kit that youve had verified) mix up a water change and check that to see if the high DkH is being 'caused' by the salt.

At 13dkh i'd be tempted to simply leave be, and let it fall of its own accord which can take several weeks in a low stocked system, rather than rushing in with large water changes (only ever do this if you can see evidence in the stock that they are under stress)...large water changes not only change the chemistry your targeting, but also the rest of the elemental levels which places alot of stress on the whole closed ecosystem (rapid changes to an assumed better level can be just as dangerouse as changes for the worse). the best course is usually several smaller water changes done over a short period so the chemistry shifts/steps slowly back into the target range...

2. One of the hard fast rules of saltwater management is to know for 'deffinate' exactly what your 'true' salinity is, as 'all' elemental levels are relative to the amount of salt dissolved in the water...ie 'salinity' not density....My advice is to ignore density or SG becouse its so temperature dependent, and go strictly by salinity or ppt..as an average you want to be looking for 35-35.5 ppt.

3. the way you measure salinity is crucial. Imo the only two realy reliable ways are with a lab grade hydrometer and long test tube used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions (especialy relating to test water temperature), or more commonly a refractometer....... and its refractometers that commonly cause the most confusion and most errors in testing...... Just about all refractometers on the market bar 1 i know of are designed for testing brine or saltwater (not 'seawater') which has a different refractive index at 35ppt of around -1.5ppt against brine.
anotherwards, if your testing using a properly calibrated brine refractometer, your 35ppt is in real life 33.5 ppt....this is the reason why so many people complain about various salts being low in Mg etc...Its not actually the salt thats low in alot of cases, its the mix thats weaker than actually assumed...simple answer....mix to 36.5-37ppt if you want a 'true' 35-35.5ppt using a brine refractometer....low and behold, alot of the time your test readings will climb up to where they should be..

Calibration is another common but very big error......When it says 'calibrate at 20c' (or whatever figure is quoted on an ATC (auto temperature compensating) refractometer)...this actually means that the 'body' of the refactometer has to be set to 20c for calibration...NOT the water sample be that RO or distilled...

Once the body has been calibrated at 20c, then the unit will auto compensate for any temperature that the body rises or falls to within its accepted range (usually 5-30C)..ie if you use the instrument in differing environments/rooms/sheds etc etc..

The water sample temperature is pretty much meaningless to be honest becouse once you place just two small drops onto the screen, it is such a small volume that it will equalise to the screen temperature in 5-10 seconds.

I normally recommend calibration as follows for greater accuracy.

take the refractometer and place it in a sealed bag that wont leak...then place it in a jug of water and set the temperature to 20c (or whatever is quoted for calibration) using a thermometer. Leave/keep at that temperature for a minimum of 15-20min to allow the body to equalise its temperature with the surrounding water, then take out, and calibrate with 000 TDs RO water. place a couple of drops on the screen as normal, wait 10-15 seconds and then set to zero.

Then test your tank....If your using a brine refractomer, dont forget to subtract 1.5ppt to get the 'true' salinity.

Once you know your true salinity, you can work out where your levels should be..and diagnose chemistry issues...

The important thing to consider is that when you run a low salinity which is assumed higher, and dose various addatives to boost alkalinity, Mg, or Ca to the correct levels, you are actually running all your 'other' trace element levels at a depleted rate...this is very likely the reason why some people realy struggle with some systems.. allowing for all the variables including incorrect calibration of equipment or poor quality equipment (swing arm hydrometers etc)The salinity is in many cases i have seen far far lower than they believe, so whilst thay add extra Mg/Ca and bicarb to boost the main levels up to where they should be, the rest of the elemental table is severly depleted leading to stress, various unanswerd or unexlainable losses, deprivation, instability, and ultimately a struggling system...

It also explains in alot of cases (actually a huge number) why many people complain about thier salt being low in this and that when its actually not if all the above is taken care of.

on a final note I'll add one last bit of advice...It is very very common for salt in shipping to settle out in the bucket giving rise to widely varying test results for the same salinity from the top of the bucket to the bottom (especially in the case of Mg Ca and DkH)...its absolutely crucial when mixing up a water change that the bucket is rolled or mixed prior to it being used, so that all of the chemicals are evenly distributed throught the bucket....

Equally add salt to water (never water to salt) when making up the batch, and add the salt slowly in small amounts to cold water over several hours to prevent settling and over saturation lower in the water container which will cause precipitation and loss of mg, Ca and DkH. On a 25 gallon change i usually add (spinkle in) the salt required over about 4-5 hours spread across 6 or 7 additions and allways end up with a crystal clear mix with no precipitation at all before bringing up to temperature and circulating for 24hours (remember that thing about refractometers and the water sample temperature..well 35.5ppt is still 35.5ppt regardless of whether the mix is tested at 10c or after its heated to 25c.)


so, my overal advice...dont change anything untill you know for a fact that your readings are 100% accurate...then go from there..

I hope this has been of help.

regards
 
Last edited:

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Its the D-D aquarium solutions one...its currently available here in the Uk as we were the first to introduce them to the aquarium trade. but im not 100% sure if they have made it over there just yet...I know there are a few around (randy has one if i recall as well as a few others) but im not sure about the dealers just yet. If you have a browse, you may find one of our US dealers has them in.

regards and applogies for the plug...its not something that was intended..
 

jerl77

Advanced Reefer
Location
long island ny
Rating - 100%
100   0   0
wow my where did you learn about all the stuff you know just want to thank you for the all help you have add to this site thanks
Hi sillysidewinder. I'm going to suggest a bit of a backtrack first.

so to cover all bases that might give you a false or correct (but out of ideal range) reading, I'll go through some obvious and not so obvious stuff (appologies if im getting you to suck eggs here).

1. First of all the test kit...Is in date, have you factord the +/- variance of the kit thats usually listed somewhere in the instructions...ie if the variance is +/- 1dkh then your reading may mean 14 or 12. if its 12, then thats not so bad as its just at the very upper end of the normally allowable range (allowable being slightly wider than the standard 8-10 'ideal' range for non ULNS systems).
2. does the kit come with a referance solution that shows you that specific kits true variance (salifert being a case in point)...if not then you need to find/beg/borrow a referance solution to verify the kit, or at least find out how far out it is (most kits are to some degree or other) but its crucial to know if its up or down and by how much.

If that all checks out, then you have a verified DkH level which you can trust and act on accordingly. At the same time (using the kit that youve had verified) mix up a water change and check that to see if the high DkH is being 'caused' by the salt.

At 13dkh i'd be tempted to simply leave be, and let it fall of its own accord which can take several weeks in a low stocked system, rather than rushing in with large water changes (only ever do this if you can see evidence in the stock that they are under stress)...large water changes not only change the chemistry your targeting, but also the rest of the elemental levels which places alot of stress on the whole closed ecosystem (rapid changes to an assumed better level can be just as dangerouse as changes for the worse). the best course is usually several smaller water changes done over a short period so the chemistry shifts/steps slowly back into the target range...

2. One of the hard fast rules of saltwater management is to know for 'deffinate' exactly what your 'true' salinity is, as 'all' elemental levels are relative to the amount of salt dissolved in the water...ie 'salinity' not density....My advice is to ignore density or SG becouse its so temperature dependent, and go strictly by salinity or ppt..as an average you want to be looking for 35-35.5 ppt.

3. the way you measure salinity is crucial. Imo the only two realy reliable ways are with a lab grade hydrometer and long test tube used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions (especialy relating to test water temperature), or more commonly a refractometer....... and its refractometers that commonly cause the most confusion and most errors in testing...... Just about all refractometers on the market bar 1 i know of are designed for testing brine or saltwater (not 'seawater') which has a different refractive index at 35ppt of around -1.5ppt against brine.
anotherwards, if your testing using a properly calibrated brine refractometer, your 35ppt is in real life 33.5 ppt....this is the reason why so many people complain about various salts being low in Mg etc...Its not actually the salt thats low in alot of cases, its the mix thats weaker than actually assumed...simple answer....mix to 36.5-37ppt if you want a 'true' 35-35.5ppt using a brine refractometer....low and behold, alot of the time your test readings will climb up to where they should be..

Calibration is another common but very big error......When it says 'calibrate at 20c' (or whatever figure is quoted on an ATC (auto temperature compensating) refractometer)...this actually means that the 'body' of the refactometer has to be set to 20c for calibration...NOT the water sample be that RO or distilled...

Once the body has been calibrated at 20c, then the unit will auto compensate for any temperature that the body rises or falls to within its accepted range (usually 5-30C)..ie if you use the instrument in differing environments/rooms/sheds etc etc..

The water sample temperature is pretty much meaningless to be honest becouse once you place just two small drops onto the screen, it is such a small volume that it will equalise to the screen temperature in 5-10 seconds.

I normally recommend calibration as follows for greater accuracy.

take the refractometer and place it in a sealed bag that wont leak...then place it in a jug of water and set the temperature to 20c (or whatever is quoted for calibration) using a thermometer. Leave/keep at that temperature for a minimum of 15-20min to allow the body to equalise its temperature with the surrounding water, then take out, and calibrate with 000 TDs RO water. place a couple of drops on the screen as normal, wait 10-15 seconds and then set to zero.

Then test your tank....If your using a brine refractomer, dont forget to subtract 1.5ppt to get the 'true' salinity.

Once you know your true salinity, you can work out where your levels should be..and diagnose chemistry issues...

The important thing to consider is that when you run a low salinity which is assumed higher, and dose various addatives to boost alkalinity, Mg, or Ca to the correct levels, you are actually running all your 'other' trace element levels at a depleted rate...this is very likely the reason why some people realy struggle with some systems.. allowing for all the variables including incorrect calibration of equipment or poor quality equipment (swing arm hydrometers etc)The salinity is in many cases i have seen far far lower than they believe, so whilst thay add extra Mg/Ca and bicarb to boost the main levels up to where they should be, the rest of the elemental table is severly depleted leading to stress, various unanswerd or unexlainable losses, deprivation, instability, and ultimately a struggling system...

It also explains in alot of cases (actually a huge number) why many people complain about thier salt being low in this and that when its actually not if all the above is taken care of.

on a final note I'll add one last bit of advice...It is very very common for salt in shipping to settle out in the bucket giving rise to widely varying test results for the same salinity from the top of the bucket to the bottom (especially in the case of Mg Ca and DkH)...its absolutely crucial when mixing up a water change that the bucket is rolled or mixed prior to it being used, so that all of the chemicals are evenly distributed throught the bucket....

Equally add salt to water (never water to salt) when making up the batch, and add the salt slowly in small amounts to cold water over several hours to prevent settling and over saturation lower in the water container which will cause precipitation and loss of mg, Ca and DkH. On a 25 gallon change i usually add (spinkle in) the salt required over about 4-5 hours spread across 6 or 7 additions and allways end up with a crystal clear mix with no precipitation at all before bringing up to temperature and circulating for 24hours (remember that thing about refractometers and the water sample temperature..well 35.5ppt is still 35.5ppt regardless of whether the mix is tested at 10c or after its heated to 25c.)


so, my overal advice...dont change anything untill you know for a fact that your readings are 100% accurate...then go from there..

I hope this has been of help.

regards
 

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jeri, absolutely no need whatsoever to thank me. Im a big believer in the ideal that bulletin boards are there for people to share information, progress the hobby, and help each other out. sometimes people may dissagree or information may be incorrect (non of us are right all the time) but its how those conversation are conducted thats the most important thing, and thats where MR has alot of other boards beaten hands down imo. One of the reasons i have so much respect for this board, the team and its membership is that you can actually hold a good indepth conversation without feeling that your being judged, pigeon holed, or argued with just for the sake of it..

all in all a very nice place, and enjoyable expendature of my time imo..

As for me, well, ive just got this very annoying photographic memory for anything reef related that i read or see...

ask me what my wifes birthday or wedding anniversery date is and thats a whole other ball game....Its a curse as much as a blessing i assure you..:tongue1:

regards
 

SevTT

Advanced Reefer
Location
Suffolk County
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
So I just did a test of alkalinity, calcium, pH, and salinity. Everything was pretty much perfect except for alkalinity which was wayyyy high around 13.1 - 13.4. I did a 50% water change and cleaned all of my sand. I waited a few hours and then re-tested my alkalinity and it was pretty much the same! What can I do?!


First off, don't freak out. Alkalinity at that level won't really harm anything so long as it's acclimated to it; it's fast swings that cause real problems. Frankly, if you can maintain your Ca at good levels, you should be happy you can keep your Alk up so high. It helps reduce pH swings due to photosynthetic and biological activity.

I bet your Mg is on the high side as well. Again, there don't seem to be any really negative effects to a high Mg level, so long as it's within the range of sanity.

Now, if you really want to reduce your alk, there're three ways to do it easily. Water changes aren't one of them, since ASW should have a moderately high alk anyway. You'd have to change a -lot- of SW, and frankly, the high alkalinity is probably less harmful to the critters in the tank than massive water changes.

First off, you can add mineral acids to the tank. HCl, hydrochloric acid, sold as muriatic acid in hardware and pool supply stores, is most suitable for this. If you're a good hand at chemistry, you can readily calculate exactly how much acid you should need by converting dKH to MEQ. However, if you're not, and if you don't have a pH probe to monitor the pH as you slowly add acid to the tank, this is probably one of the more dangerous ways. (Organic acids, such as acetic acid, vinegar, will reduce the pH and alk temporarily, but won't really remove the alk from the system.)

Second, you could induce precipitation of CaCO3 by raising the calcium in the tank with a CaCl supplement. Add enough so that you would expect to get a raise of about 50 ppm per day, and monitor your alkalinity a few hours after adding the supplement. Eventually, your Ca will cap out and any more you add will rain out as insoluble (and harmless) CaCO3, sucking down your carbonate alkalinity with it.

Third, you can get a few large clams or oysters or something. These suckers seem to pull alk out pretty quick. ;)
 
Last edited:

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top