BB vs. SB

prattreef

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Agreed that statement extrapolating to BB was unecessary and unfounded and really just a throw away in regards to the study. Your idea is interesting, but you seem to have arrived at a conclusion before actually trying it. You may very well be right, but to assert it without real evidence, even if it makes common sense, is not fair as a refutation of a real experiment.

I would bet Toonen et al would love for someone to do follow up experiments and either prove/disprove or complicate their findings. Sadly, this is not likely to happen as few in this hobby have the time, money or expertise to do so.

Ultimately, we are left with understanding and employing a methodology as best we understand it, acknowledging its limitations as best we can, and most importantly for me, learning to look carefully at the animals we keep allowing them guide us in their needs and requirements. The later is what I find most lacking in the hobby today, and the thing that was most important to those who succeeded us in figuring out the possibilities for the long term survival of the organisms we love.

Randy
 

herman

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he he he, I really wonder where this hobby will be in ten years from now. We will probably be laughing at how we used to do things :)
 

herman

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prattreef said:
Ultimately, we are left with understanding and employing a methodology as best we understand it, acknowledging its limitations as best we can, and most importantly for me, learning to look carefully at the animals we keep allowing them guide us in their needs and requirements. The later is what I find most lacking in the hobby today, and the thing that was most important to those who succeeded us in figuring out the possibilities for the long term survival of the organisms we love.

Randy
Well said!! My sentiments exactly!!
 

kimoyo

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prattreef said:
Your idea is interesting, but you seem to have arrived at a conclusion before actually trying it. You may very well be right, but to assert it without real evidence, even if it makes common sense, is not fair as a refutation of a real experiment....
....Ultimately, we are left with understanding and employing a methodology as best we understand it, acknowledging its limitations as best we can, and most importantly for me, learning to look carefully at the animals we keep allowing them guide us in their needs and requirements. The later is what I find most lacking in the hobby today, and the thing that was most important to those who succeeded us in figuring out the possibilities for the long term survival of the organisms we love.
That anecdotal test I mentioned was referring to known science. But it doesn't saying anything about any method be better than the other which was the point of me saying it. Toonen's testing had interesting results but the interpretation of the data could be looked at very differently.
 

Kedd

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I don't want any part of this therad, but I want to know WHAT WERE YOU THINKING MANNY! just kidding LOL

I'm starting your stand tomorrow, so call me or drop by after work with that undercoater.


Kedd
 

Manny

Flying Kimura
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:scratch: Maybe I'll just get a couple gold fish and some marbles:scratch:j/k

Thanks for the links... off to do some more reading

Kedd said:
I don't want any part of this therad, but I want to know WHAT WERE YOU THINKING MANNY! just kidding LOL

Kedd
I did't mean it :happysad: :grouphug:

Kedd said:
I'm starting your stand tomorrow, so call me or drop by after work with that undercoater.

Kedd
cool i'll stop buy durring work tomorrow
 

memito

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Manny,

I am once again planning a reef tank - now that I have finally found an apartment that is suitable - and am planning to put a DSB in my sump/refugium area, not in the main tank. I want to get the benefits of a DSB but also have the ability to disconnect it and manage it without impacting the main tank.

Just a thought...
 

nanoreefer22

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Tonyscoots84 said:
memito that is a good idea... i plan on doing the same with my sump... tank will be BB with a white cutting board..
IMO if your running a BB main tank and remote DSB fuge, the entire theory behind BB is lost. It would be the same as running a DSB in the tank, just with the added benefit of being removable. With all the flow taking the detritus out of the main tank, its just gonna find its way somehow into the remote DSB. In that case you would lose the whole point of getting everything out of the tank that comes along with BB.
-Kris
 

Tonyscoots84

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fine then i wont use anything wiseguy... lolz u no to much kris.... :lol: :joke:

keep up the good work kris i wanted to see if u had ur game on today... :scratch: hehehe
 

nanoreefer22

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Tonyscoots84 said:
fine then i wont use anything wiseguy... lolz u no to much kris.... :lol: :joke:

keep up the good work kris i wanted to see if u had ur game on today... :scratch: hehehe
Sure sure...i still know so little its not even funny ;)
 

Tonyscoots84

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nah u no alot kris... for a youngster u no alot.. u make me wanna hit the marine books sometimes... but then im too lazy to pick em up.. and read em..
 

Deanos

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nanoreefer22 said:
IMO if your running a BB main tank and remote DSB fuge, the entire theory behind BB is lost. It would be the same as running a DSB in the tank, just with the added benefit of being removable. With all the flow taking the detritus out of the main tank, its just gonna find its way somehow into the remote DSB. In that case you would lose the whole point of getting everything out of the tank that comes along with BB.
-Kris
Wrong. A major point of running a BB in the display, is to allow for high flow in the tank without a sandstorm. Detritus removal becomes important in a BB tank, because there's no sandbed to break it down, thus, preventing nitrates from skyrocketing. If there's a remote sandbed, nitrates will be broken at that location with the added benefit of being replaceable without disturbing the display tank. Ask House how he feels, since this is how his setup is designed.

Dean

p.s. Tony, I advise you do some reading, since everything posted on this site is not always accurate. You change your mind too easily.
 

kimoyo

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The only thing I read in recent times that Dr. Ron and Bomber agreed on was that corals don't need stability. Its ironic because everyone says stability is the key. But when you think about it, some corals on the reef are exposed in air during low tide for hours. Members on this site will leave some of their corals exposed to air for hours while doing water changes. Ldrhawke (on other boards) designed his system to simulate this low tide by releasing an extreme amount of bubbles into the aquarium for several minutes every hour or few hours. And the corals are fine.

But you have to understand that Bomber and Dr. Ron (more so) were very public and couldn't be very flexible in what they said. IMO a DSB cannot be sink or can be sink, but the remote DSB in a bucket can be a sink that is very easy to remove. There is a thread on RC about it in Calfo's old forum but it should be mechanically filtered water running thru it so detritus doesn't collect there. Its primary purpose is for controlling nitrates. But during this process phosphate is absorbed released. The thing with sandbeds is they do need stability because all sorts of things can be released when the environment is not stable or disturbed. From what I've been seeing and reading lately as far as nutrients nitrate (not phosphate) is the issue when talking about coral (sps) color and growth. But phosphate is the primary issue with nuisance algae. Once the bucket is filled up just throw it away (of course knowing when is a problem). So I don't see a problem using a remote dsb with a bb but others might.
 
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nanoreefer22

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Deanos said:
Wrong. A major point of running a BB in the display, is to allow for high flow in the tank without a sandstorm. Detritus removal becomes important in a BB tank, because there's no sandbed to break it down, thus, preventing nitrates from skyrocketing. If there's a remote sandbed, nitrates will be broken at that location with the added benefit of being replaceable without disturbing the display tank. Ask House how he feels, since this is how his setup is designed.

Dean

p.s. Tony, I advise you do some reading, since everything posted on this site is not always accurate. You change your mind too easily.
I see where you're coming from on this but House is also running a shallow sandbed in the main tank. Another key factor in keeping a BB tank is the ability to run a nutrient free tank. With a DSB this wouldn't be achievable, or would it? Now although being able to up the flow in a BB tank is a big part of it, you can still have adequate flow in a SSB tank and keep all corals. The remote DSB would defeat the purpose of being BB IMO. I see it as being the exact same as having a DSB in the main tank, with the added feature of being removable. Another part of being BB is having that huge skimmer to keep your nitrates down ;).

Tony, Deans right but I won't add to it :lol:, I used to be and on many things I'm still the same way :D
 

kimoyo

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nanoreefer22 said:
Another part of being BB is having that huge skimmer to keep your nitrates down ;).
You know its funny, it seems to me that the reefers with DSB's and huge skimmers have the cleaniest sand (and I know people don't talk about this).
 

Tonyscoots84

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yea thanks deanos... i figured it was a good idea.. where it was simple to remove the sand incase of any problems such as excess nutrients but with the dietrus gettin stuck in it i would have a filter sock in the sump which would catch most if not all the dietrus and a asm g3 skimmer.. so i dont no i guess i will do alot of research and i will speak to house...
 

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