Colon Health, Gut Loaded and ?Clean? food

[salpet]

this thread sounds like a sale pitch of some sort to me.

 

[Thales]

I just published this book. "The Avant-Garde Marine Aquarist" It has absolutely no scientific studies or more than a couple of scientific references so it is all anecdotal and not meant to be read by anyone who needs a scientist to tell him how to run a tank. Of course it is full of pictures which to me are proof of diet and care of a reef tank, but again anecdotal. I only wrote it because, being I have the oldest tank on here, and maybe in America (but not as old as the Steinhart Aquarium) I figured I had a few things to share before I get to old to spell anecdotal.

I also know about Thiel (he is actually a friend of mine) Martin Moe, who started the same time as me, maybe the same week, as did Dr Schmick. Bob Goemens is also a friend of mine and has been to my home and although I know and met Sanjo, I don't really know him that well. Nice guy though. Have a great discussion, but whatever you do, don't read my book. :biggrin:
Before I read this thread I thought a knew at least a couple of things, now I realize I know nothing except anecdotes. My life is over. Anecdotally speaking.

Your continued science bashing is lame. Your continued bathing in ignorance is sad. Your continued shilling of your book is offputting. The fallacies you continue to proudly employ are detrimental to reefing - though great for people trying to sell stuff. I don't get any of it except the shilling of the book. The name dropping is incredibly weird and certainly Shimek (unless you are actually talking about someone named Schmick) and Moe don't think the way you do about science and anecdote.
Would you please post a pic of your tank here so we can see if it is something we want to emulate?:biggrin: Smilies make everything funny right!

 

[Paul B]

OK I will. I am not trying to sell the book, it sells very well without that.
I can post a picture of my tank as it seems I am the only one posting any pictures. I don't see your tank or anything you did except have a job at a public aquarium.
As for Dr Shimek, I know all about him and disagree with his work on DSBs. But of course that is just my opinion. I also do not bash science. I actually love science.
I just think reading about someone else's scientific studies and running a reef tank on that is silly. Virtually everything I have ever written was published, right or not with no checking on my experience. Either on a forum or a real magazine with no proof what so ever.
As I said many times, I can prove what I have done. You seem very young and I still have not seen any pictures of anything spawning in "your" tank in your home. I also don't know how long you have kept anything. All you seem to be doing is telling everyone they are wrong even though there is an awfully lot of talent on this thread. Boomer and the Doc are very knowledgeable guys
I know what the tank in the public aquariums look like, but they are not your tank, and nothing in there was your doing.
Now you can bash my tank and tell me everything that is wrong with it. It is not photoshoped like many pictures on these forums so the colors are not garish and fake. The tank has gone through many changes and now I am trying to go for more sponges and gorgonians. Of course I never believe it is the nicest tank on here and it is not supposed to be. It is supposed to be how I want it to look. This tank has been running with no crashes or quarantining since 1971. As for my ignorance I also have one aquarium related United States utility Patents (US Patent #8,555,543 B2) And a provisional patent. I was also a combat Sargent in Viet Nam and a General Foreman construction electrician in Manhattan for 40 years. I have been attending schools all my life, just nothing I would call college. What did you do for this hobby?
Bash away.

 

[Thales]

OK I will. I am not trying to sell the book, it sells very well without that.

Then stop mentioning it every post.

I can post a picture of my tank as it seems I am the only one posting any pictures. I don't see your tank or anything you did except have a job at a public aquarium.

No one asked me for a pic ? though I posted a link to my website earlier, and both of the articles I linked have pictures of my tank. Though, I am not sure what pictures of my tank have to do with this thread ? I am not making husbandry claims based on my tank.

As for Dr Shimek, I know all about him and disagree with his work on DSBs. But of course that is just my opinion. I also do not bash science. I actually love science.

I didn?t say anything about DSB?s ? I mentioned his opinion on anecdote. You were name dropping, but his name, and Martins? don?t help your position at all. You have bashed science and championed ignorance many times in this thread.

I just think reading about someone else's scientific studies and running a reef tank on that is silly.

Of course ? who in this thread, or anywhere for that matter, is suggesting such a thing? No one, nowhere.

Virtually everything I have ever written was published, right or not with no checking on my experience. Either on a forum or a real magazine with no proof what so ever.

That doesn?t seem like something to be proud of (and again mistakes proof with evidence)

As I said many times, I can prove what I have done.

You are still mistaking proof from evidence. That said, no one has said you haven?t done what you say you have done. Really. What has been called into question is the generalizations you make from your experience. You convert anecdote into fact, which is incredibly dangerous.

You seem very young and I still have not seen any pictures of anything spawning in "your" tank in your home. I also don't know how long you have kept anything.

Young. LOL. How arrogant you are. It is also and ad homimem and an appeal to authority. Lamesauce. You know you can find stuff out about me really easily? Maybe not, you seem really really old (see what I did there?)
Cliffs notes ? I have been in the hobby for over 30 years, was MASNA Aquarist of the Year in 2015, have published 4 or 7 peer reviewed papers, have an MBI Species first award, have bred and raised (not just spawned) a dozen or so marine fish, have worked in wholesale, retail, and coral farming (both domestic and in the South Pacific), have pioneered husbandry in cephalopods and have dozens of articles in various media, and have over 500 dives in the field. My current tank at home is 13 years old. There is more - ask Boomer.

All you seem to be doing is telling everyone they are wrong even though there is an awfully lot of talent on this thread.

That is absolutely not what I am doing ? though I understand that you may think it is.

Boomer and the Doc are very knowledgeable guys

I agree. Doesn?t mean I won?t call them on sloppy thinking if I see it.

I know what the tank in the public aquariums look like, but they are not your tank, and nothing in there was your doing.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here. See, another case of you putting your opinions forward as fact. It really does make you look silly sometimes. Other times, it gets people to spend money they don?t need to spend and kills animals.

Now you can bash my tank and tell me everything that is wrong with it. It is not photoshoped like many pictures on these forums so the colors are not garish and fake. The tank has gone through many changes and now I am trying to go for more sponges and gorgonians. Of course I never believe it is the nicest tank on here and it is not supposed to be. It is supposed to be how I want it to look.

Great. Nice softie tank. There are thousands that look the same and don?t do what you do. NOTE ? this is not saying that what you do doesn?t work.

This tank has been running with no crashes or quarantining since 1971.

So? You keep changing it, as you said above.

As for my ignorance I also have one aquarium related United States utility Patents (US Patent #8,555,543 B2) And a provisional patent. I was also a combat Sargent in Viet Nam and a General Foreman construction electrician in Manhattan for 40 years. I have been attending schools all my life, just nothing I would call college.

I didn?t call you ignorant. I said you were bathing in ignorance. Which you have been with your derision of science and your championing of not needing to actually know anything.

What did you do for this hobby?

I almost never indulge in this kind of thing, but LOL.

Oh yeah - :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[salpet]

pretty basic easy to keep corals is that all you got?

 

[John D Hirsch MD]

Nutrition research is hard because you have so many variables to control and results are rarely seen immediately. Just like there are Republicans and Democrats, ideologically there are all natural advocates and supplement advocates. That flavors any claims and likely it won?t be changed by any evidence both anecdotal or scientific. I will continue to be an advocate for a varied all natural diet. There is a great deal to learn from the aqua culturing community as some maintain closed ecosystems like ours and we all agree that they are different from the wild. Aqua culturing to raise food stocks are very different in my mind when compared to aqua culturing for instance yellow tangs or for scientific advancement. Remember this is a hobby and our goals are both similar and different from that industry. Also remember that any product claims are just as likely to be anecdotal and promotional and as part of this forum, we will point them out. Since much of our hobby is based on anecdotes and arguable science, I have approached Reefs.com about creating a confidential database of registered users to better understand the feeding habits of experienced/inexperienced, successful/unsuccessful hobbyists both with and without degrees. The aggregate data would be published regularly in this forum. Together we can ask and answer many questions and hopefully for the Independents out there as well as some of you Democrats and Republicans will improve the health of the reef ecosystem.
Doc

 

[Paul B]

Thales, this has been fun and I hope we can remain debate partners as I never mean any disrespect in my posts. It is a hobby and just here to have fun.
I look forward to future discussions.


Salpet, you are correct. My tank now is, as I said heading more for gorgonians and sponges as I find them more interesting.


Have a great day guys.


Paul (my smiley thing doesn't work)

 

[albano]

Paul (my smiley thing doesn't work)

Science has created a little blue pill to fix that!

 

[Charley]

Ah ha.....now it is becoming clear! First of course, it is awesome to have someone of your caliber on the posts, so cool and thanks.

As you have once stated: ?I have always insisted throughout the many editorials I wrote that we present to the public information that is more than the smoke from somebody?s opinion pipe or simple anecdotal observations, but information rather that was quantifiable, repeatable, and scientifically accurate. Creatures that we keep in our reef aquariums deserve no less.?

Now it makes sense...

However, and very respectfully, you may not be viewing all this info from the eyes of the average hobbyist such as myself. In having a 29 gal biocube and seeing how dedicated one has to be just to keep this little thing going it is quite an achievement and very much an inspiration, I think to most average hobbyists, to see Paul's longtime dedication and success in the hobby and he is good enough to stick his neck out there and share his experiences and love of the hobby with us. And never once has Paul tried to sell us a blackworm or a clam.

It is just as inspirational to see someone like yourself who has dedicated a lifetime to get us to use scientific accurate info, cut through the bull so we can be successful in the hobby. I can only imagine it might even be tough to share info with the average hobbyist in the sense that you spent so much time to gain the knowledge you have and to simply throw it out there for us to "use". It's a catch 22 I guess because if you envision a broad sustainable hobby what else is there to do but to share? Otherwise the hobby will only be for a select few. I can take up golfing, no prob.

As opposed to making the argument about anecdotal evidence with Paul. I think it would be so cool to say to Paul "you know with all 40 yrs plus of using those blackworms we would like to consider studying this further in a controlled environment and see if you are on to something that can be applied across the board". After all, you did mention how anecdotal evidence can help real research. Doesn't get more anecdotal than 40 yrs of feeding the same thing with great success.....seriously. Let's face it , Paul in a sense is filling a void due to a lack of research in this area that the average hobbyist can absorb.

And "if creatures in our aquariums deserve no less" it is maybe correct but in reality our hobby is so tiny and insignificant to warrant making this sort of statement. I travel to China quite often...there is more fish in 1 evening in fish tanks that people select from to eat more than than any major LFS has in a month! It blows me away every time, the quantity, the beauty, the variety..... and there are thousands of these restaurants. Jacque Cousteau himself has not laid eyes on half these creatures they are about to ingest! I go to Thailand too....same deal. Nice thought to treat our creatures well...but better served to make these statements somewhere else where it can make a real impact to save our reefs in my opinion

 

[Koyfam16]

Charley I completely agree where you say "Paul's methods should be studied further"
It's obvious that it worked for him whether it's evidence or proof or anecdotal to me is irrelevant. If he is portraying it as proof instead of anecdotal then it's up to the reader to use their best judgement.
All I have seen Paul do is share what works for him. That said I haven't run out to immediately get black worms to try it myself. Because what I'm feeding works for me.

Until someone can prove him wrong I think he's onto something and further scientific research would be great.

I hope this thread can be informational and not be a science vs non science or proof vs evidence vs anecdote type conversation.

Thanks

 

[reef.right.corals]

Paul, I have nothing but respect for your contributions to the hobby. That said, I share some of Thales' concerns with how loosely you use your own experience and make it appear as fact, or written in stone. I read your book, and enjoyed it, however when several aquarists have asked me about it, I gave them a disclaimer that it could be dangerous in the wrong hands. You make a host of assertions in the book, just as you have done here, using the age of your tank and your years in reef keeping as an ironclad shield against skepticism. While you don't outright recommend aquarists abandon quarantine, it certainly comes off as a suggestion. In the book, issues like parasitic outbreaks are written off as impossible in your tanks, and this method of totally immune fish will protect anyone's animals from infection. This goes on throughout the book, with no citation to any concrete evidence, aside from your own personal experience. It's wonderful that what you do has worked so long, and so well, for you. However, it could as easily be attributed to dumb luck, as it could be for unlocking the hidden secretes of aquarium keeping. There are so many unanswered questions in reef keeping, especially surrounding parasitic outbreaks and nutrition, that it seems irresponsible to me, to suggest that aquarists (especially new aquarists) go about reef keeping with cavalier enthusiasm and semi-experimentation. Things such as going off the seashore and collecting rock, mud and food stuffs, then throwing them in the tank - in hopes of cultivating some beneficial bacteria, could spell disaster for someone who lacks the skills to manage a healthy aquarium.

Much of what is written in our hobby is conjecture, and I encourage any seasoned aquarist to experiment in their own tanks. However, when we write a book that some aquarists somewhere, might take as a concrete guide, it's best to error on the side of a conservative, manageable approach. Statements like fish immune to parasites will likely be taken by someone to mean, there is no need to quarantine and if my water quality is good, I can purchase a sick, discounted fish and nurse it back to health in my reef. You comment in the book that you often purchase sick fish and nurse them back to health, which is something someone may take as a suggestion to save money.

Like I said, the book was very entertaining and quite intentionally funny at times, but I am not sure it's a book I could confidently hand to an aquarist in need of reliable information and say, "Read this."

 

[Paul B]

Reef.right.corals. Thank you for responding. I will PM you or people will think I want to sell the book.

 

[Chefjpaul]

Nature:
http://www.marinespatialecologylab.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Kulbick_2005_ALR.pdf

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00288330.1988.9516315

Reality in home:
What I believe every reef fish species has a "specialty" diet - all vary.

Articles and video relating to the Steinhart Aquarium via. Rich, Long Island Aquarium via. Joe, Paul's Aquarium Etc... Lists can go on. The one thing is, consistency regarding the utilization varieties foods & diet for nutritional values.

As the fish sizes change (grow), their diets accordingly, including spices specific whether be it for nutritional, ease of access or personal taste, majority diets do change as marine animals grow in nature.

I do not think any single organ discussion has too much merit in an aquarium, less home aquarium, as we DO NOT supply nearly anything resembling a true food source, nor bio type environment, nor can we achieve or replicate this. Home aquaria discussions should be narrowed down to a lesser laymen discussion on concern overall health, diet and successes of, until scientific research is found just.

Large Public aquariums, such as Rich's, (Steinhart Aquarium), have a larger caliber resembling an ecosystem / closed bio type communities, and should be in these discussions more than not, as I personally see their experience as reasonably sound, and greatly more experienced, no matter time line of. Being said, not one has any physical captive reef fish?s scientific data supporting diet.

I am a huge believer in bacteria, no matter how it is accomplished ? as a chef I believe in ?whole? balance and nutritional diets, including variety, sustainable food consumption, being no different than human technique. (Someone stated we do not eat the whole animal, but we do have alternative food sources and choice - to balance our nutritional needs, our captive animals only have what we supply).

By what we supply - maybe it is better by "adjusting" the "probiotics" of nature a tad until further data.
"Probiotic' can be considered microorganism, bacteria & carbon dosing for dissolved nutrients to strive for corals, what is wrong with doing the same for our fishies? - again until scientific data of what we need to feed each individual fish independently by age is achieved.

We should also truly appreciate the work the guys & gals are doing this research & development regarding fish diet for home aquaria, such as LRS, Rods, etc., (just to name a couple). The momentum to understand nutrition is growing and that only best for these animals either way.

 

[Charley]

Thanks for sharing some info and thoughts

Was wondering if anyone has any info on the nutritional value of blackworms as it relates to feeding fish versus other foods that we use? Could be good info to help make a determination whether to try or not that is reliable as opposed to googling?

 

[Thales]

As you have once stated: ?I have always insisted throughout the many editorials I wrote that we present to the public information that is more than the smoke from somebody?s opinion pipe or simple anecdotal observations, but information rather that was quantifiable, repeatable, and scientifically accurate. Creatures that we keep in our reef aquariums deserve no less.?

Where did I state that? Some of it sounds like me, but some of it doesn't sound like something I would say or write. Thanks. I'll respond below, but I would like to know I really said that, and if so in what context. EDIT - that wasn't me, that was Terry Seigal. Sorry I was the 2014 AOTY winner, not the 2015!

However, and very respectfully, you may not be viewing all this info from the eyes of the average hobbyist such as myself. In having a 29 gal biocube and seeing how dedicated one has to be just to keep this little thing going it is quite an achievement and very much an inspiration, I think to most average hobbyists, to see Paul's longtime dedication and success in the hobby and he is good enough to stick his neck out there and share his experiences and love of the hobby with us. And never once has Paul tried to sell us a blackworm or a clam.

This confuses me a bit. There are a billion people out there that have great success in keeping reef tanks that put their stories out there - Paul is hardly unique in that respect. There are also a lot of long timers out there. That said, Paul is fine. His tank is fine. If you want a tank like his, you should hear what he has to say about it and decide if that is the direction you want to go - same with anyone else.

The main thing I take issue with is people converting anecdote to fact. This kills animals. I have no problem with people relating their experiences.

It is just as inspirational to see someone like yourself who has dedicated a lifetime to get us to use scientific accurate info, cut through the bull so we can be successful in the hobby. I can only imagine it might even be tough to share info with the average hobbyist in the sense that you spent so much time to gain the knowledge you have and to simply throw it out there for us to "use". It's a catch 22 I guess because if you envision a broad sustainable hobby what else is there to do but to share? Otherwise the hobby will only be for a select few. I can take up golfing, no prob.

We should all cut through the bull when we can. The frist step to that IMO is seeing the bull - a lot of the time we don't.

As opposed to making the argument about anecdotal evidence with Paul. I think it would be so cool to say to Paul "you know with all 40 yrs plus of using those blackworms we would like to consider studying this further in a controlled environment and see if you are on to something that can be applied across the board". After all, you did mention how anecdotal evidence can help real research. Doesn't get more anecdotal than 40 yrs of feeding the same thing with great success.....seriously. Let's face it , Paul in a sense is filling a void due to a lack of research in this area that the average hobbyist can absorb.

Again, what Paul is doing, including the black worms, is nothing new. We were doing it with difficult to feed fish in the early 80's through to today. The main reason most people don't do it is twofold - you need to keep live worms, and you get very similar results with other foods that are more readily available. Further, it is up to the person making the claim to support it. If someone feels that blackworms are a remarkable food, I would cheer them doing something more useful than anecdote to show they are right.
Though I don't see evidence to claim they are a miracle food, I have no problem feeding blackworms to saltwater fish - I do have problems some of the claims that people make about blackworms, which make them seem like a miracle food, that are based on pretty much nothing.

And "if creatures in our aquariums deserve no less" it is maybe correct but in reality our hobby is so tiny and insignificant to warrant making this sort of statement. I travel to China quite often...there is more fish in 1 evening in fish tanks that people select from to eat more than than any major LFS has in a month! It blows me away every time, the quantity, the beauty, the variety..... and there are thousands of these restaurants. Jacque Cousteau himself has not laid eyes on half these creatures they are about to ingest! I go to Thailand too....same deal. Nice thought to treat our creatures well...but better served to make these statements somewhere else where it can make a real impact to save our reefs in my opinion

Several different topics in there, and I think there are two Skeptical Reefkeeping installments about ethics that discuss much of what you said. The short version is that saying 'other people are worse than us' is not an excuse for us to act poorly. We are responsible for our actions, and for the hobby to be able to defend against some of the attacks it has come under recently, being good to the animals is something that will help a lot. You don't get to kick your dog because other people eat dogs and keep them in worse conditions than you do. I make these kinds of statements to the hobby because I am part of the community and I think it important. I make them other places as well when I can.

 

[Thales]

Until someone can prove him wrong I think he's onto something and further scientific research would be great.

This is the kind of thinking that needs to change. It is not up to anyone to prove someone else wrong. It is up to the makers of claims to support their claims. If someone wants to do further testing, great, that would be informative.

 

[Thales]

Thanks for sharing some info and thoughts

Was wondering if anyone has any info on the nutritional value of blackworms as it relates to feeding fish versus other foods that we use? Could be good info to help make a determination whether to try or not that is reliable as opposed to googling?

That information is in on of the blackworm threads somewhere. I looked it up and posted it once. So did others.

 

[Thales]

Reef.right.corals. Thank you for responding. I will PM you or people will think I want to sell the book.

That is silly and petulant Paul.

 

[Charley]

Yes, now I remember...my bad. Thanks!

 

[Dre]

Science has created a little blue pill to fix that!

This thread is a little blue pill