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02-22-2016, 07:30 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
You're correct, there is zero reason why they should pay attention to me. But if one feels morally bad about the "keeping fish at home thing" because fish lives are being lost, time better spent where the impact is biggest and where there is really no interest in protecting the reefs. Ok I 'll give up my clownfish, now what?
I don't know if we should feel bad about keeping fish at home, though there are clearly parts of the chain of custody where there is unnecessary death and suffering that could be easily cleaned up.
Again, only you can choose where your time is better spent.

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You're playing judge here. Not quite sure the people who are eating the fish consider themselves bad, just surviving. Then you judge things based on this line of thought as though you are the ultimate decider of whats or good or bad to begin with, is amazing Ok, i'll run with it.......
Where did I say I was the ultimate decider? That said, there is clearly a difference between surviving on fish you catch and putting an aquarium in your living room.

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"want to accept as necessary" does not compute. It might very well be absolutely necessary and who are we to judge anyway?
Depends on the action. I think you keep jumping to examples without letting me know you have jumped. Eating swordfish steaks at a restaurant is very different from substince fishing.

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Read the article, thanks! You can not overstate the contagiousness of enthusiasm to have a profound effect on the world even 1 very small step at a time.......wow very cynical view in my opinion on this point.
You can absolutely over state it - it happens all the time in our hobby. Having seen so many nutty justifications for keeping animals in living rooms under terrible conditions but brimming with enthusiasm....is what I am trying to counter.

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Yes, I keep a tank because I want it, love it and totally fascinated......
The only meaningful justification for keeping a tank at home.
 
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02-22-2016, 08:08 PM
  #12  
I do not in the least feel badly. Could easily be cleaned up? There are soooooo many life circumstances that hit us and how can you determine when one has to spend time on cleaning up and time on other life issues at one particular time in ones life.? If you go down this sort of road, just end capturing all fish for the hobby.

Sure feels that way sometimes that you are judging Yes, I agree a difference if surviving.

I think you need to more specific not according to my cardiologist, swordfish everyday and you can take this up with him! Good Luck! The lines get very, very blurry..... guess this is why you have this thread !

Please define "terrible conditions". Which real life factors do you want to add to this equation? Is it just outright bad people or people down on their luck, someone lost their job, a hurricane, someone who loves the ocean but has a poor reading education? So this hobby is for the most fit only, most elite, most mentally stable people dedicated to some umph degree and who measure that?

How about the people pulling the fish out of the oceans? Are there motives squeaky clean? Seriously? Hope this thread hits their message boards, wherever they are. Why always question the end hobbyist? Just curious.
 
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02-22-2016, 09:07 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
I do not in the least feel badly. Could easily be cleaned up? There are soooooo many life circumstances that hit us and how can you determine when one has to spend time on cleaning up and time on other life issues at one particular time in ones life.? If you go down this sort of road, just end capturing all fish for the hobby.
I am talking about the trade and industry.

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I think you need to more specific not according to my cardiologist, swordfish everyday and you can take this up with him! Good Luck! The lines get very, very blurry..... guess this is why you have this thread !
More specific? See the articles or I am happy to answer specific questions.
Eating swordfish in a restaurant is a delicacy, not a necessary food for your heart - you can get the omaga 3's elsewhere. Happy to take that up with your cardiologist.

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Please define "terrible conditions".
Packing multiple fish together for 50 hour shipments. Keeping fish in bags for ease of sale and putting their health/lives at risk. Fish housed in tanks too small for them or with predators. Overcrowded with unsuitable filtration and water quality. Etc.

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Which real life factors do you want to add to this equation? Is it just outright bad people or people down on their luck, someone lost their job, a hurricane, someone who loves the ocean but has a poor reading education? So this hobby is for the most fit only, most elite, most mentally stable people dedicated to some umph degree and who measure that?
Lots of words put in my mouth there. That said, if you can't keep the animals in suitable conditions, you shouldn't keep the animals. This is a luxury hobby with living things that need specific conditions to survive, not marbles. If you can't feed a dog, horse, cat or any other animal, then no, you shouldn't be keeping it.

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How about the people pulling the fish out of the oceans? Are there motives squeaky clean? Seriously? Hope this thread hits their message boards, wherever they are. Why always question the end hobbyist? Just curious.
You said you have read the articles about ethics but this question makes me feel that you did not, as I clearly discuss the industry, trade and hobby. I discuss this kind of stuff with people in all aspects of the industry, trade and hobby, not just the end hobbyist.

Last edited by Thales; 02-22-2016 at 09:10 PM.
 
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02-23-2016, 12:14 AM
  #14  
Well, I went back to the article and it is titled: Justifications - my home tank is educational. My bad if this thread is meant to focus on the trade and industry.

Swordfish a delicacy? Really? Says who? Less swordfish in the ocean = less people eat it. More tuna in the ocean = more people eat it. It’s also about proportions, etc…..same effect, both populations get depleted. Which fish should I get my omega 3 ‘s from? No fish at all? So we strip something else, is that any more moral? Nope. Protect the fish and scorch the earth? Ok, let’s scorch the earth instead. I am sure that will be soooo problem free with no issues. More like passing the buck. Feel free to keep my cardiologist busy so he has no time to keep telling me to lose weight, much appreciated.

Keeping fish in terrible conditions as it relates to the industry and trade is all a matter of economics and education. I have watched the struggles of a store owner since the second day they opened. As you know way better than me how incredibly difficult it is.
I cannot say from when fish are captured and transported. I wholeheartedly agree with you all should be done to do this as “humanely” as possible for the fish and under the best possible conditions right down to the store level. If I could get involved to help in this area, I would….

As far as the real life factor’s is concerned, your response I disagree with. Ok, so all store owners should make very clear to customers this is a luxury hobby only? Good luck. Comparing to cats, dogs and horses is not a good comparison. People jump in not knowing or are not fully explained the complexities and fine nuances that are about to come. This is way, way more complicated than keeping dogs and cats. Plus, you do not know where the next Jacque Cousteau will come from……and in general who has the right to say to anyone what they “should” have or not and for what reason???

It is fantastic that you have these discussions with your peers, the trade, the hobby. Does not mean everyone is addressing the right issues with the most impact and heading in the right direction. Of course I am not qualified to make this comment. Just a gut feeling. I am learning a ton, reading all your articles as carefully as I can when time allows and think this discussion is great, so fascinating.

IMHO, the issues are way, way too complex, the battles are way too enormous, the ship has sailed in so many directions, so many arguments to make. I say have a nice glass of wine and enjoy!

Wish others so much smarter and so much more insightful than me would jump in. Really not hard at all to find. As a matter of fact, so easy! If I can stick my neck out, hope others will too!
 
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02-23-2016, 12:35 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
Well, I went back to the article and it is titled: Justifications - my home tank is educational. My bad if this thread is meant to focus on the trade and industry.
There are a ton of articles in this thread about a lot of stuff. You haven't been very clear about which you have been discussing so sometimes I don't really know what you are talking about.
The question mark is kind of important in the title of that one article - it should be "Justifications - my home tank is educational?"

"Swordfish a delicacy? Really? Says who?"

Says the definition of delicacy. Any food that you eat that is for pleasure and not directly survival can be considered such.

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Less swordfish in the ocean = less people eat it. More tuna in the ocean = more people eat it.
That isn't how it is working out. People are eating more Tuna now and there is less of it in the oceans. I think the same is true for swordfish, but I would want to check. The point is that people don't stop eating when there is less. This is a problem.

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It’s also about proportions, etc…..same effect, both populations get depleted. Which fish should I get my omega 3 ‘s from? No fish at all? So we strip something else, is that any more moral? Nope. Protect the fish and scorch the earth? Ok, let’s scorch the earth instead. I am sure that will be soooo problem free with no issues. More like passing the buck. Feel free to keep my cardiologist busy so he has no time to keep telling me to lose weight, much appreciated.
This is a dismal view of the world. There are many other ways to sustainably harvest other than strip harvesting.

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Keeping fish in terrible conditions as it relates to the industry and trade is all a matter of economics and education. I have watched the struggles of a store owner since the second day they opened. As you know way better than me how incredibly difficult it is.
If the economics are not their to support reasonable care of the animals, the business shouldn't go out of business. If the hobby cannot support business that provide reasonable care for the animals, the hobby is morally unsupportable. I don't believe either are true.

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I cannot say from when fish are captured and transported. I wholeheartedly agree with you all should be done to do this as “humanely” as possible for the fish and under the best possible conditions right down to the store level. If I could get involved to help in this area, I would….
You can. There are many ways from supporting MASNA or PIJAC to not purchasing animals from 'bad' sources and more

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As far as the real life factor’s is concerned, your response I disagree with. Ok, so all store owners should make very clear to customers this is a luxury hobby only? Good luck.
I didn't say anything like that. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

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Comparing to cats, dogs and horses is not a good comparison. People jump in not knowing or are not fully explained the complexities and fine nuances that are about to come. This is way, way more complicated than keeping dogs and cats.
And when people do that with dogs and cats and horses they get arrested and fined, and you are supposed to get a dog or cat liscense, and you are supposed to take them to the vet - if you have a horse, there is a ton of care you spend money on. While I agree that keeping reefs is more complicated than the dogs or cats or maybe horses, there is an expected standard of care for those animals, but none for fish and corals. People shouldn't jump in not knowing what they are getting into.

[/quote]Plus, you do not know where the next Jacque Cousteau will come from[/quote]

Specious. Could come from anti aquairum world just as easily (or anywhere else where there is interest) than from our hobby...Jaques Cousteau did not come from the aquarium world.

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……and in general who has the right to say to anyone what they “should” have or not and for what reason???
That is covered in several of the articles.

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It is fantastic that you have these discussions with your peers, the trade, the hobby. Does not mean everyone is addressing the right issues with the most impact and heading in the right direction.
Who said it did? Who says the point is to address the 'right' issues with the 'most impact'? Not me, I don't even know what the scope of those phrases includes.
Again, we can impact what we do in this industry/trade/hobby. What other industry/trade/hobbies do is not necessarily directly related to us. We are responsible for our own actions.

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IMHO, the issues are way, way too complex, the battles are way too enormous, the ship has sailed in so many directions, so many arguments to make. I say have a nice glass of wine and enjoy!
I disagree. But enjoy your wine.
 
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02-23-2016, 02:05 AM
  #16  
in general, discussing whether the hobby is morally justifiable.

In this day and age I eat all fish for pleasure and overall good health. So I guess all fish is a delicacy for me since I do not have to eat any fish at all. Ok, I wont eat any fish....

Well I hope everyone is trying to save the tuna as much as this hobby. I love sushi! I agree this a whopper of a problem! Hope people love the tuna as much as the yellow tang or goodbye tuna!

You brilliantly avoided advising me which fish I should eat to get my omega 3's. I agree wholeheartedly agree that there should be sustainable harvesting. But if you know something I do not know ( which is a ton of course ), do not hold back, its an emergency at this point. I've seen those restaurants and fish markets in China and Thailand. My point being that to ask the question "is our hobby is morally sustainable" based on scale to me, a silly question. The experts at your level I would focus my energy on bigger things, bigger in scale to have a more powerful impact. Just my honest opinion, that's all. In the meanwhile, the hobby is totally justifiable as much as anything else......we focus so much effort on transporting an angelfish a bit better and meanwhile fish for food is being tossed onto boats, caught in nets with reckless abandon and on a super huge scale. Are those fish less worthy? I don't get it....never will. The focus is wrong.

"If the hobby cannot support business that provide reasonable care for the animals, the hobby is morally unsupportable." I agree and the business will collapse anyway on its own.

"There are many ways from supporting MASNA or PIJAC to not purchasing animals from 'bad' sources and more" Ok, thanks

"I didn't say anything like that. Please stop putting words in my mouth." Very respectfully, do not believe I did. I simply carried your thoughts out a bit. You stated " This is a luxury hobby with living things that need specific conditions to survive, not marbles." I am helping by suggesting that all stores indicate clearly and advise new customers that the saltwater hobby is a luxury hobby. This will weed out the customers who cannot afford to be in the hobby. Perhaps an upfront questionnaire that some dog adoption agencies use? Can have income level ( most important of course ), how much time do you have for research? Ah forget it, shut the hobby down, easier and saves fish lives. So much easier....

Ok, can you cut me some slack on this one......maybe the next Jacque Cousteau can by some miracle come from the hobby world?

Forget the articles, no one has the right. Ok, I will make sure to read the articles in case I need to rethink.

My problem is that you tend ( I know I might be putting words in your mouth and drawing wrong conclusions )to separate the hobby from all other things fish, like the fish we eat. Why? to me this makes no sense. As a result you address the tiniest of issues that affect our oceans. With all your knowledge and those of your peers why not use it to make the most impact on behalf of all of us. Why are you "hiding" behind the hobby to make the most impact? Just trying to rallying the troops as I see fit
 
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02-23-2016, 09:52 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
in general, discussing whether the hobby is morally justifiable.
A really tough thing to discuss. There are no clear answers. What my writing about this does is look at some common moves people make to try to justify the hobby...most of them are specious, but that doesn't mean the hobby should stop - just that the bad reasoning should stop.

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In this day and age I eat all fish for pleasure and overall good health. So I guess all fish is a delicacy for me since I do not have to eat any fish at all. Ok, I wont eat any fish....
The world isn't that binary.

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Well I hope everyone is trying to save the tuna as much as this hobby. I love sushi! I agree this a whopper of a problem! Hope people love the tuna as much as the yellow tang or goodbye tuna!
You keep trying to mix all things together. Keeping aquarium fish is not the same as eating Tuna (or Swordfish). The hobby largely isn't trying to save itself, never mind worrying about food fish.

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You brilliantly avoided advising me which fish I should eat to get my omega 3's.
I thought you were kidding as there are so many sources of it. Flaxseed oil. Almost any fish. Swordfish is a really weird place to be thinking of as a sustainable source of omega 3's.

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I agree wholeheartedly agree that there should be sustainable harvesting. But if you know something I do not know ( which is a ton of course ), do not hold back, its an emergency at this point. I've seen those restaurants and fish markets in China and Thailand. My point being that to ask the question "is our hobby is morally sustainable" based on scale to me, a silly question. The experts at your level I would focus my energy on bigger things, bigger in scale to have a more powerful impact. Just my honest opinion, that's all.
I am not involved in the international food fish industry. I am involved in the ornamental fish industry. There is little point in my trying to impact the international food fish industry, there is much point in my trying to impact the practices of the ornamental fish industry and hobby.

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In the meanwhile, the hobby is totally justifiable as much as anything else......
I agree. I point that out over and over again. What I take to task is some of the specious justifications.

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we focus so much effort on transporting an angelfish a bit better and meanwhile fish for food is being tossed onto boats, caught in nets with reckless abandon and on a super huge scale. Are those fish less worthy? I don't get it....never will. The focus is wrong.
I agree. However, I have no connection to the food fish industry, while I do have a connection to our hobby. Also, the arguments for fishing for food are much harder to deal with as they are often about humans being able to live rather than keep pets in their living rooms.

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"If the hobby cannot support business that provide reasonable care for the animals, the hobby is morally unsupportable." I agree and the business will collapse anyway on its own.
One would think, but it turns out that most hobbyists shop based on lowest price, not reasonable care. Over an over again, stores that do bag lot sales continue to be in business while stores that source sustainably go out of business.

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"I didn't say anything like that. Please stop putting words in my mouth." Very respectfully, do not believe I did. I simply carried your thoughts out a bit.
That is putting words in my mouth.

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You stated " This is a luxury hobby with living things that need specific conditions to survive, not marbles." I am helping by suggesting that all stores indicate clearly and advise new customers that the saltwater hobby is a luxury hobby. This will weed out the customers who cannot afford to be in the hobby. Perhaps an upfront questionnaire that some dog adoption agencies use? Can have income level ( most important of course ), how much time do you have for research? Ah forget it, shut the hobby down, easier and saves fish lives. So much easier....
Again, since this isn't my line of thinking, please do not attribute it to me.

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Ok, can you cut me some slack on this one......maybe the next Jacque Cousteau can by some miracle come from the hobby world?
I didn't say it couldn't come from the hobby world, just that that possibility is a bad justification for continuing the hobby.

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My problem is that you tend ( I know I might be putting words in your mouth and drawing wrong conclusions )to separate the hobby from all other things fish, like the fish we eat. Why? to me this makes no sense.
I don't. In my first ethics article I compare the hobby to recreational fishing, and some other things as well. The problem you say you have isn't quite real.

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As a result you address the tiniest of issues that affect our oceans. With all your knowledge and those of your peers why not use it to make the most impact on behalf of all of us. Why are you "hiding" behind the hobby to make the most impact? Just trying to rallying the troops as I see fit
I address issues that I think are important for the continued existence of a hobby that I love. I want the hobby to be able to stand up to the people that would shut it down. Currently, it has a hard time doing that. You seem to want me to go after other industries, and sometimes I do. However, as I keep saying over and over again, this is my bailiwick, so this is where I do a bunch of my work.
 
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02-23-2016, 11:02 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
My problem is that you tend ( I know I might be putting words in your mouth and drawing wrong conclusions )to separate the hobby from all other things fish, like the fish we eat. Why? to me this makes no sense. As a result you address the tiniest of issues that affect our oceans. With all your knowledge and those of your peers why not use it to make the most impact on behalf of all of us. Why are you "hiding" behind the hobby to make the most impact? Just trying to rallying the troops as I see fit
This is what I call the bigger fish to fry argument, and it is very common. 'Don't look at this small thing I am doing, look at the big thing those people are doing over there that has more impact than what I am doing'. While there is a germ of utility in this, there is more often an abdication of responsibility. Even if it is true that the other guy is doing something worse, it still doesn't relieve you of the responsibility for what you are doing. You don't get to say 'ignore my beating of this child because over there they are doing worse things to kids'. Better is 'right! I'll do this better, now lets all go over there and see if we can get them to be better too'. The bigger fish to fry argument is also interesting because it is almost always employed inconsistently. For instance, you mention that your heart doctor wants you to eat omega 3's as well as losing weight - instead of focusing on losing weight, the bigger fish to fry, you are focusing on the omega 3's.
 
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02-23-2016, 03:26 PM
  #19  
"I address issues that I think are important for the continued existence of a hobby that I love. I want the hobby to be able to stand up to the people that would shut it down. Currently, it has a hard time doing that. You seem to want me to go after other industries, and sometimes I do. However, as I keep saying over and over again, this is my bailiwick, so this is where I do a bunch of my work." Ok, my bad. Now I see exactly where you coming from and what your goal is.

If you want to save the hobby, I would start using some bigger fish to fry arguments! The hobby is up against the hypocrites in gov't ( don't ask how I really feel!) whose only concerns is who lines their pockets, keeping their cushy jobs and ridiculous arguments and steadfast positions on issues that make no sense. I know, I had to deal with these people ( being nice ) with Hurricane Sandy.

If the only defense you ( and your peers ) are employing is to scramble and improve conditions as quickly as possible to appease these "people" ( I am so hot with anger right now, I might burst into flames! ) the hobby is lost.....

You could:

Ship all fish singly in cushy plastic bags, placed on cushy pillows, with soft music piped in so they arrive smiling and it will not be enough.

Have the fish go to all the "best" wholesalers. Will not be enough
Have them shipped to the "best" LFS and it will not be enough
Count and inspect every fish personally yourself and it will not be enough

Give me a break. This is about money, power, corruption, personal motivation to move ahead, making a name for oneself, fear of losing their job. You think its about the fish? Yeah right.

So to your point about " While there is a germ of utility in this, there is more often an abdication of responsibility" . No, you are confusing responsibility with strategy in this case. With all the scientific firepower you have at your disposal, if you cannot come up with studies, arguments, research papers, whatever, that does in fact bring in a greater morality and has a much bigger effect than what our hobby does, all is lost. Climate change, acid rain, ocean warming, overfishing in other countries and how this ties in sooooooo much more so than pulling a few fish in off the reefs and shipping them, then the hobby will close.

They have you right where they want you, in the weeds, making incremental changes to the hobby.....ah they are loving it! Got you twisting and turning. No, hit them hard, delay them, razzle and dazzle, tell them they focus on the wrong issues. Tell them this is a waste of time while so much more devastation is taking place affecting their precious reefs. In effect at the very least, buy time until the back end can be improved.

If you can somehow tie in how big money can positively affect where they are sitting with a macro argument of some sort, even better. Think out of the box. Follow the money, not the fish.

I do agree things can be improved all the way down the line. Just buy the time anyway one can including using the wonderful world of macro arguments

Last edited by Charley; 02-23-2016 at 03:37 PM.
 
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02-23-2016, 05:49 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Charley View Post
"I address issues that I think are important for the continued existence of a hobby that I love. I want the hobby to be able to stand up to the people that would shut it down. Currently, it has a hard time doing that. You seem to want me to go after other industries, and sometimes I do. However, as I keep saying over and over again, this is my bailiwick, so this is where I do a bunch of my work." Ok, my bad. Now I see exactly where you coming from and what your goal is.
:thumbsup:

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If you want to save the hobby, I would start using some bigger fish to fry arguments! The hobby is up against the hypocrites in gov't ( don't ask how I really feel!) whose only concerns is who lines their pockets, keeping their cushy jobs and ridiculous arguments and steadfast positions on issues that make no sense. I know, I had to deal with these people ( being nice ) with Hurricane Sandy.
I disagree. We will always be low hanging fruit, easy to point to. Unless we have our ducks in a row, saying ‘they are worse’ not only appears to be a lame argument, but is actually a lame argument.

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If the only defense you ( and your peers ) are employing is to scramble and improve conditions as quickly as possible to appease these "people" ( I am so hot with anger right now, I might burst into flames! ) the hobby is lost.....
I have no idea why you would think that to be the only defense, I have no idea who you think my peers are (or what they are doing or I am doing with them), and I have no idea who these ‘people’ you refer to are.

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You could:

Ship all fish singly in cushy plastic bags, placed on cushy pillows, with soft music piped in so they arrive smiling and it will not be enough.
I don’t find that kind of extreme silly example that no one is putting forth as helpful to the discussion.

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Have the fish go to all the "best" wholesalers. Will not be enough
Have them shipped to the "best" LFS and it will not be enough
Count and inspect every fish personally yourself and it will not be enough
Nor these.

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Give me a break. This is about money, power, corruption, personal motivation to move ahead, making a name for oneself, fear of losing their job. You think its about the fish? Yeah right.
I disagree, and somehow you still don’t seem to have a clue as to what I think.

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So to your point about " While there is a germ of utility in this, there is more often an abdication of responsibility" . No, you are confusing responsibility with strategy in this case.
No I am not.

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With all the scientific firepower you have at your disposal, if you cannot come up with studies, arguments, research papers, whatever, that does in fact bring in a greater morality and has a much bigger effect than what our hobby does, all is lost. Climate change, acid rain, ocean warming, overfishing in other countries and how this ties in sooooooo much more so than pulling a few fish in off the reefs and shipping them, then the hobby will close.
This is quite an anti Pollyanna oversimplification. And if true, then there is no point in anything and we might as well just abuse all our animals because, well, we are going to lose anyway.

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They have you right where they want you, in the weeds, making incremental changes to the hobby.....ah they are loving it! Got you twisting and turning.
I don’t think you know what you are talking about. You have said previously that you don’t know much about the intricacies of the hobby/industry, yet here you are telling me how it is.

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No, hit them hard, delay them, razzle and dazzle, tell them they focus on the wrong issues. Tell them this is a waste of time while so much more devastation is taking place affecting their precious reefs. In effect at the very least, buy time until the back end can be improved.
LOL. Let me know how that has been working out the last 20 years its been tried. I am not interested in participating in BS. If you want to do this, go for it.

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If you can somehow tie in how big money can positively affect where they are sitting with a macro argument of some sort, even better. Think out of the box. Follow the money, not the fish.
And this shows that you have little understanding of the trade.

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I do agree things can be improved all the way down the line. Just buy the time anyway one can including using the wonderful world of macro arguments
The time is almost up, and I don't believe what you are suggesting is either helpful or something I am interested in doing. I look forward to your efforts. How is the China thing going?

Last edited by albano; 02-23-2016 at 06:16 PM.
 

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