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08-03-2015, 08:34 PM
  #2  
Part 3 is such a non-conformist.
 
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08-03-2015, 09:01 PM
  #3  
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
Part 3 is such a non-conformist.

 
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08-31-2015, 02:09 PM
  #4  
I always find these " is the hobby morally justifiable" type articles, amusing and laughable.


Richard hit it right with:


It isn’t that sport is intrinsically good and aquariums are bad, it is that sport is a widely accepted activity (and it brings a ton of money into the local Hawaiian economy).


It's ALL about the money! End of story! Believe me, if corporations, or gov'ts could see how our hobby could line their pockets, their would be NO issues, case closed.


Instead of writing these types of articles, our time would be better spent writing to heads of gov't such as China, Japan to end commercial fishing. I do not mean any disrespect, but this is all so a drop in the bucket, just so meaningless. I travel to China, Hong Kong, Thailand for business. There is MORE fish in front of seafood restaurants, and more beautiful varieties of colorful fish and invertebrates, Jacques Cousteau head would spin! There is more fish captured and eaten and who knows what in a week in 1 restaurant, let alone all over China, than our hobby sells all over the US in a year it seems!


Point is, very very respectfully, why bother discussing this here. Write to the heads of large corporations and gov'ts and let our piddling of a hobby be. Get off our high horses, in reality it is a joke.


I love this hobby like all most of use do. The fact that this is discussed at all puts us light years ahead in terms of "morality" against everything else and everywhere else things come out of the ocean.


I think the best we can do is to be aware of species endangered, cut down of capturing those if we can, and to encourage hobbyists to breed at home. Hopefully the natural progression of better technology will help keep those ornamental hobbyists fishes alive longer.


Wow, go that off my chest


Thanks
Charley
 
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09-01-2015, 11:11 PM
  #5  
Hi Charley! Thanks for joining the conversation.

Why this kind of article and why discuss it here? Because I find it really interesting. I also find it helpful for the community at large because a lot of people don't think about this kind of stuff. While I like the idea of people writing to government and companies, I think mostly individuals doing so is generally ignorable, when it we can organize, a writing campaign will be much more effective.

Do you have a sample of what you think we should be writing to companies and governments?

Rich
 
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09-02-2015, 02:14 PM
  #6  
Of course I do find these articles interesting or I would not have read it let alone responded! I say "why bother to write these articles" to exaggerate to make a point. We tend in the hobby to feel like we need to defend ourselves for existing. Really? As opposed to commercial fishing or sports fishing? We are such a drop in the bucket compared to both that it is ridiculous to feel any guilt or the need to justify anything we do. We only discuss these issues because we already have a conscious light years ahead of the people who run those groups. Is the fish we put on our dinner plates of any less value that what we put into our tanks? Just because we eat it? Because it is not as pretty? We do not think twice about it. The quantity is infinitely more , the methods to catch is no less "cruel" than our hobby caught fish. Nobody screams there and If they did the big money will laugh them off. We get bullied by Hawaiian authorities or whatever. Who cares, they are all hypocrites. Fire back! Tell them when end sports fishing, we will stop collecting. Hit them in their pocketbooks with their silly arguments. We have the right to exist just as much as any other entity that pulls things out of the ocean.

Always find it amusing when one member of a forum "scolds" another member, most likely a newbie, for bringing home a fish that may have died a day or 2 later for a lack of knowledge of preparation or whatever. I say, get a grip, this means absolutely less than nothing in the grand scheme of things. Write to where it matters and leave the poor fellow or gal alone. Give some friendly advice and get on with it.

Is there any topics about this being spoken at MACNA?

Thanks
Charley
 
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09-02-2015, 02:24 PM
  #7  
No, do not have an example of what we should be writing to companies or gov'ts. Simply do not think it would matter. They will listen to the money. I think best to write to defend our hobby as opposed to getting the others to stop.
 
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02-22-2016, 03:27 PM
  #8  
I took the request to write a letter to companies/governments to heart. I did some research on to where or to how to go about to write to the Chinese gov't and have no clear way to proceed as of yet. I chose China because of the biggest impact.

Giving more thought to whether this hobby is "morally justifiable" or not, I tend to look at this as a matter of scale. The amount of fish we pull out of the ocean for this hobby compared to what is pulled out to eat is so tiny in comparison I just cant help to find it to be so compelling. Yes, we lose a few fish in the hobby but tons of uneaten fish are thrown away. Is it because our fish are "prettier", perceived as smarter or have more interesting behaviors and that they are somehow superior to the eating kind of fish that we so feel a sense of duty to have this discussion? Don't know. We will never be able to stop fish being pulled from the oceans to be eaten in such massive destructive quantities especially from non democratic countries. Not going to happen. As reefkeepers, we should have the right to pull from the oceans just the same. In doing this, we share the "oceans" with our friends and families and spread the wonder and awareness of what is so precious in our oceans. Awareness is the only chance we have. We should be responsible to the extent we can by having moratoriums on ornamental fish/corals we are depleting too quickly.

Since fish will be coming out of the oceans no matter, I find our hobby is morally justifiable. The spreading awareness of the appreciation of the reefs by hobbyists will over time be the saving grace of the reefs in the long, long run.

Last edited by Charley; 02-22-2016 at 03:32 PM.
 
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02-22-2016, 05:39 PM
  #9  
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charley View Post
I took the request to write a letter to companies/governments to heart. I did some research on to where or to how to go about to write to the Chinese gov't and have no clear way to proceed as of yet. I chose China because of the biggest impact.
Great. I don't see why they will pay any attention to you, but am way interested in what happens.

Quote:
Giving more thought to whether this hobby is "morally justifiable" or not, I tend to look at this as a matter of scale. The amount of fish we pull out of the ocean for this hobby compared to what is pulled out to eat is so tiny in comparison I just cant help to find it to be so compelling. Yes, we lose a few fish in the hobby but tons of uneaten fish are thrown away. Is it because our fish are "prettier", perceived as smarter or have more interesting behaviors and that they are somehow superior to the eating kind of fish that we so feel a sense of duty to have this discussion? Don't know. We will never be able to stop fish being pulled from the oceans to be eaten in such massive destructive quantities especially from non democratic countries. Not going to happen.
Other people acting badly does not mean we should act badly. You don't get to beat your children because other people put children in labor camps.

Quote:
As reefkeepers, we should have the right to pull from the oceans just the same.
That doesn't hold up. Eating fish seems to be something that people want to accept as necessary, using fish as decoration isn't. And, perhaps they don't have the right to pull the fish from the oceans either.

Quote:
In doing this, we share the "oceans" with our friends and families and spread the wonder and awareness of what is so precious in our oceans. Awareness is the only chance we have. We should be responsible to the extent we can by having moratoriums on ornamental fish/corals we are depleting too quickly.
I think that overstates the impact of awareness that home tanks have. I wrote about it here: http://packedhead.net/2011/justifica...s-educational/

Quote:
Since fish will be coming out of the oceans no matter, I find our hobby is morally justifiable. The spreading awareness of the appreciation of the reefs by hobbyists will over time be the saving grace of the reefs in the long, long run.
See above.

Thanks for your input!
 
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02-22-2016, 06:23 PM
  #10  
You're correct, there is zero reason why they should pay attention to me. But if one feels morally bad about the "keeping fish at home thing" because fish lives are being lost, time better spent where the impact is biggest and where there is really no interest in protecting the reefs. Ok I 'll give up my clownfish, now what?

You're playing judge here. Not quite sure the people who are eating the fish consider themselves bad, just surviving. Then you judge things based on this line of thought as though you are the ultimate decider of whats or good or bad to begin with, is amazing Ok, i'll run with it.......

"want to accept as necessary" does not compute. It might very well be absolutely necessary and who are we to judge anyway?

Read the article, thanks! You can not overstate the contagiousness of enthusiasm to have a profound effect on the world even 1 very small step at a time.......wow very cynical view in my opinion on this point.

Yes, I keep a tank because I want it, love it and totally fascinated......
 

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