Need SPS Exp Opinions Please

[d5332]

the sps usually either get covered in sediment and die or the get bleached.

Tried diff types of acros, birds nest and digitata they all slowly die.

Can you describe how your SPS'es are dying?
Aka, does it start by a discoloration of the tips that extends to the rest of the body, or does it looks like the skin is just shedding away?

What SPS'es have you tried? Easy ones like Montipora digitata, or hard to keep Acroporas? What other corals do you keep in your tank? Where did you place your new arrivals? There are a lot of factors to consider, including predation, getting burnt by large sweeping tentacles, chemistry, too much light right away, etc etc.

ps: No matter what, if indeed you can maintain corals without water changes etc etc, if you are starting with SPSes you should probably start by doing what is most common to most reefers... experimental recipes come later, once you have succeeded with the "standard".

 

[d5332]

I read enough on vodka dosing to decide to use it, for nearly a year and I go without water changes.

Tank has acans, hammers, frogpawns, favia, brains, ricordeas, anemones, montiporas, and a bunch of other stuff all alive.

What I read is that vodka dosing tends to lower alk not raise it, I read about the burnt tips and what not. Understanding or not understading enough seems to work for me.

I get a lot of my information from Reefkeeping.com

If you have a better site than please do share.

Table 1. Parameters critical to control in reef aquaria.​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Parameter:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Reef Aquaria Recommendation:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Typical Surface Ocean Value:[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Calcium[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]380-450 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]420 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Alkalinity[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]2.5-4 meq/L[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]7-11 dKH[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]125-200 ppm CaCO[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE] equivalents[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]2.5 meq/L[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]7 dKH[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]125 ppm CaCO[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE] equivalents[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Salinity[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]35 ppt[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]sg = 1.026[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]34-36 ppt[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]sg = 1.025-1.027[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Temperature[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]76-83? F[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Variable2[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]pH[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]7.8-8.5 OK[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]8.1-8.3 is better[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]8.0-8.3 (can be lower or higher in lagoons) [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Magnesium[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]1250-1350 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]1280 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Phosphate[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]< 0.03 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]0.005 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Ammonia[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]<0.1 ppm[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]Variable (typically <0.1 ppm)[/SIZE][/FONT]
My parameters are dead on based on the above table and I try to keep them steady.



a Bubble Magus with PSK 1000 and a EShopps 200 with a PSK 1000 that are currently skimming simultenously neither one is ever clean is fine for me, a $800 skimmer would do exactly the same. I have actually seen skimmers selling for $400 to $600 with the same exact pump and these two skimmers retail for well over $600 together, some sites close to $1000.00 together. I paid $100 each and they work great.

I began carbon dosing because i have a ton of fish and bc i dislike water changes becoming a slave to a hobby is what drove me to quit years ago.

In nearly a year of carbon dosing i have not had any crashes, fish deaths related to poisoning or anything that would otherwise make me or anyone question the use of vodka in my tank other than the fact that I sometimes drink the vodka myself instead of dosing it to the fish tank.

I dont really have pictures of the SPS, I put them in the tank and eventually they are all white, only happens to SPS corals. I usually place mid leven in the tank on a frag rack until I have time to relocate them.

As I stated before, no disrespect to anyone on any board, if some harsh opinions will come from hardcore sps keepers that are deeply devoted and often times consumed by their tanks then their responses will be very passionate, personal and hypocritical of anything a standard hobbyist writes on the internet.

I love admiring the tanks of hardcore committed folks but I do not envy or wish upon myself what I personally consider becoming a slave to a fish tank, I am hoping that it is in fact possible to keep simple acropora in a fish tank with a ton of fish and a ton of lps and softies. That rare hard to keep Milli stuff is not for me but I do love admiring the tanks of others.

I am looking for the solution on how to keep a simple mixed reef, I am not interested in hard to keep, rare, exotic, challenging whatever we want to call it corals. I have seen first hand how some reef tanks take over a persons life, not for me.

I will take your advice and the advice of others and try to keep things simple, I must, if I complicate this hobby then I will get out. I rather lose $100 of frags than live a life of running to my tank because my ph went from 8.0 to 7.9.

Complicated hobbies are not for me, over time I will take a step back keep simpicity in mind.

And in regards to your bathtub water statement, where do you think the water you drink, cook, wash and bathed in comes from? So yeah, I guess I do use my bath water for drinking water, we all do.

You are going to get a bunch of different methodologies on the husbandry of SPS. Not all of them are right but sometimes mixing too many can spell doom. Just from reading your posts tells me that you haven't really studied the Vodka/carbon dosing method. You alk is too high but you say that "you read somewhere that alk between 8 and 11 is ok" YES IT IS but not when carbon dosing. High alk can lead to burnt tips, tissue thinning and death for SPS.

Water changes. Everyone has their opinion. I personally favor water changes on a normal schedule of 10% a week and a 50% every 6 months (that's when I clean out my skimmer and sump of detritus and overflow box). Reason being is organic and in-organic buildup (heavy metal and such) that aren't exported through regular skimming. You wouldn't filter your bath water as drinking water would you? Some people use fuges that have plant life that utilize these materials but then again you pull them out when overgrown as a means of export.

There are major differences between keeping LPS, softies and SPS. the first 2 do not require the same husbandry as SPS. SPS need more a low nutrient, low phosphate, High light and higher flow than LPS and Softies like zoo's and paly's. They tend to live on sandy lagoons and can expunge detritus unlike SPS that cannot and require flow to do so.

In a mixed reef, if you can attain the right environment for SPS your other corals will benefit also (except for the lighting requirements). Being able to keep Softies and LPS by no means makes it possible to keep SPS.

Question? Why are you carbon dosing? I do it becauseI have a large bio-load of fish and corals (mostly SPS and want to keep my nitrates and p04 down and it also benefits the growth of my SPS). If you don't have algae growth or cyano I see no reason to dose Vodka.

2 skimmers is useless in a 120g. Sell them both and get one good one. It will be more consistent than 2 skimmers competing for the same waste especially if you want to keep up with no water changes.

Keep your methods simple and you will have success. BTW Jackson is one of the better SPS keepers on many sites. He keeps some of the rarer sps colorful with crazy growth when others cant. His help on my tanks have been invaluable. But I tend to take what I need from our conversations and improve upon them. Knowledge is King!

Pics would also help us determine what is really going on (burn, color loss , rtn/stn, ect...)

HTH

 

[Geraud]

How is the flow in your tank? If sediments settle on your SPS it means you do not have enough flow.

Fish not dying does not mean anything with regards to water quality... their requirements are very different from SPS's.

Water changes do not take that much time... unless you pour the salt grain by grain while mixing, it is a matter of letting the water get ready, mix the salt for a couple of hours (less if you use ESV), then done: siphon and replace.

Are you ever siphoning detritus? If you have a sediment build up so consequent that they go over your branching corals that might be the issue.

With regards to your skimmers: how often do you clean their necks? (I insist on the neck, not the cup). If you have filter socks, how often do you clean/replace them?

 

[d5332]

The few that died in this manner were on a frag rack that I guess was in low flow many many months ago, corrected situation.

The skimmer necks get cleaned every two to 3 days and I am fiddling with building my own automatic neck cleaners to keep them clean 24/7. Parts from china for both skimmers cost me $20.00, lets see how it goes.

I already built a waste locker with float switch because i decided to skim a little more on the wetside, if I can't build the neck cleaners I will buy them from Avast, already ordered new cup covers from manuf in case I screw up.

The socks I hate with a passion, every two days I have to swap the socks and cleaning the dirty ones I hate, just hate washing them but its every two days.

How is the flow in your tank? If sediments settle on your SPS it means you do not have enough flow.

Fish not dying does not mean anything with regards to water quality... their requirements are very different from SPS's.

Water changes do not take that much time... unless you pour the salt grain by grain while mixing, it is a matter of letting the water get ready, mix the salt for a couple of hours (less if you use ESV), then done: siphon and replace.

Are you ever siphoning detritus? If you have a sediment build up so consequent that they go over your branching corals that might be the issue.

With regards to your skimmers: how often do you clean their necks? (I insist on the neck, not the cup). If you have filter socks, how often do you clean/replace them?

 

[d5332]

The only thing that I can come up with last night after reading some more stuff is that I am placing the sps corals too close to the lights and I probably am, frag rack sits 6 to 8 inches from surface usually.

I am going to give this another shot, I am going to make small water changes per week for a month to bring alk down to what the lab rats have indicated 7 to 8.

Once I lower alkalinity I will buy a large frag from someone's established reef tank and place it lower in my tank and bring it uip slowly closer to where I want the sps to be.

I also added filled the reactor to max capacity with GFO and will refresh it monthly as opoose to every two months. Purchased 12 pounds of GFO last night to be able to do this consistently.

Admittingly, I do not vaccum the sump often, have only done twice in 15 months, did not see a need with zero nitrates. will device a way to vacumm it that is not time consuming or labor intensive.

It can't be the vodka
It can't be my skimmers fighting with each other
It can't be the temperature

It must be phosphates that I do not monitor regularly or alkalinity or maybe they are just not for me but they sure are pretty.

 

[Geraud]

When you get a new frag, always put it low in your tank, then every day you can put it closer to your light till you reach the level where you want it at. Carefully monitor the frag and look for "clear spots" if you see some, back it down to let it cure. Patience is the key to keeping SPS's.

Unless you absolutely know what was the light in the original tank and place it at exactly the same spot, better safe than sorry.

 

[d5332]

I will do exactly that, not place on frag rack.

When you get a new frag, always put it low in your tank, then every day you can put it closer to your light till you reach the level where you want it at. Carefully monitor the frag and look for "clear spots" if you see some, back it down to let it cure. Patience is the key to keeping SPS's.

Unless you absolutely know what was the light in the original tank and place it at exactly the same spot, better safe than sorry.

 

[d5332]

Took the water to be tested at a store that has 2000 gallons of sps and lps coral tanks.

Calcium 420
Alk 9
Mag 1300
Nitrates 0
Phosphates 0
Salinity 1.025

Based on the results the only thing that the store can conclude is that I am using too much filtering media. i.e. vodka and GFO.

Suggested course of action:

run my tank at 10 to 20ppm nitrates not zero
run my tank at .01 phosphates not at zero/undetectable

Suspects total lack of nutrients is why I am bleaching every thing.

Damn the internet is confusing, so many strive or wish to have undetectable nitrates and phosphates and here I am potentially screwing up by having low nutrients.

 

[Adamc1303]

Water changes replenish trace elements. You should be changing water monthly at the least.

 

[duke62]

All i can say is WOW. Your not looking for answers your looking for the simple easy answer because you dont want to do the work. You dismiss Jackson who has been in the hobby for years because you want it easier. Stop with SPS if you dont want to be a "slave" to your tank and keep the easy corals and enjoy. Obviously you havent done any research on keeping SPS because you say you dont want to get hard acros like millis you want easier acropora when millis is the easier acropora to keep. Your ALK is to high to carbon dose deal with it. Keeping SPS you must do water changes to replenish your tank. You are like my 16 year old you want everything but are to lazy to actually do the work. You want to learn something Stop having a attitude with people trying to help listen to what they are telling you,research their responses and try to follow what GREAT SPS keepers do and stop trying to make up your own rules it usually doesnt work with SPS

 

[fishman1069]

Took the water to be tested at a store that has 2000 gallons of sps and lps coral tanks.

Calcium 420
Alk 9
Mag 1300
Nitrates 0
Phosphates 0
Salinity 1.025

Based on the results the only thing that the store can conclude is that I am using too much filtering media. i.e. vodka and GFO.

Suggested course of action:

run my tank at 10 to 20ppm nitrates not zero
run my tank at .01 phosphates not at zero/undetectable

Suspects total lack of nutrients is why I am bleaching every thing.

Damn the internet is confusing, so many strive or wish to have undetectable nitrates and phosphates and here I am potentially screwing up by having low nutrients.

Did you tell your lfs that your not doing water changes. Changing the water replenishes much needed trace elements that you cannot test or dose for. You CANNOT get away with keeping SPS and skipping water changes. PERIOD! I suggest you start following the advice of the experienced refers on here or go somewhere else to find your simple solutions Smh. Good luck

 

[d5332]

LOL lazy LOL fine I will take that.

No I dont want to be a slave to glassbox, I think we sometimes become to obsessed with something and I have a life. I truly dont want to be the guy sitting at a bar, out to dinner or at some social function staring at my cell phone because I "am checking in on my tank".

I opened this thread very clearly, based on what I do who has been keeping sps corals successfully. I have read plenty to determine that keeping fish tanks can be like politics, some ppl take it seriously that they become the preachers, reverends, pastors of the hobby.

You can be as amazed as you want or as disappointed as you want.

The internet is not reliable, plently of ppl out there indicating they carbon dose, hardly change water and keep sps corals, I posted here on MR instead of anywhere else bc I prefer it here.

Duke, if you dont like dont chime in.

Yes, I am looking for the simplest possible way, DUH!!!! Good job, you got the point of the thread.

Millis no millis whatever, I dont bother remember the names of anything, its a pass time hobby, not my life, if I like it I buy, if it dies I get pissed for losing money and I go buy again.

All i can say is WOW. Your not looking for answers your looking for the simple easy answer because you dont want to do the work. You dismiss Jackson who has been in the hobby for years because you want it easier. Stop with SPS if you dont want to be a "slave" to your tank and keep the easy corals and enjoy. Obviously you havent done any research on keeping SPS because you say you dont want to get hard acros like millis you want easier acropora when millis is the easier acropora to keep. Your ALK is to high to carbon dose deal with it. Keeping SPS you must do water changes to replenish your tank. You are like my 16 year old you want everything but are to lazy to actually do the work. You want to learn something Stop having a attitude with people trying to help listen to what they are telling you,research their responses and try to follow what GREAT SPS keepers do and stop trying to make up your own rules it usually doesnt work with SPS

 

[d5332]

Hi Adam, I have always added bottled trace elements but i have no way to test them so dont know if those are ok.

Interesting you say monthly, I began doing weekly with the intentions of doing weekly for about 6 weeks and then adding another sps frag and seeing what happens.

If it works I will try to extend water changes to a month.

Water changes replenish trace elements. You should be changing water monthly at the least.

 

[d5332]

Assuming you are 100% correct and I very much realize that the internet is not reliable at times.....what is your recommended water changing schedule?

weekly
bi weekly
monthly
quarterly

for the record, I prefer this board to to other 5 I have visited, love it how some more "senior" MR members love steering traffic away from MR.

Did you tell your lfs that your not doing water changes. Changing the water replenishes much needed trace elements that you cannot test or dose for. You CANNOT get away with keeping SPS and skipping water changes. PERIOD! I suggest you start following the advice of the experienced refers on here or go somewhere else to find your simple solutions Smh. Good luck

 

[d5332]

If SPS corals cannot be kept without water changes than this thread will help dismiss all of the misleading information that is on the internet.

Monthly water changes are very simple.

Weekly water changes are a chore and pain in the neck hence my reluctance and interest in alternative methods, if the answer is impossible then its impossible but as you can see, some say weekly, others bi weekly and so on.

I opened the thread not for the hard core, old school I test salinity by licking my tank but for the folks if there are any out there that have similar parameters and hardly change water or at least dont change it weekly.

Some of us don't have the room for neat setups where the entire garage or basement becomes one huge reef sump, we just dont. Water changing equipment can be bulky, garbage cans, containers, etc. Some of you know what i mean.

If water changes are a must, I understand, I am doing them now. If that turns out to be my only issue then I guess I will have to play with the timeframes to see if I can extend it to once per month like Adam indicates.

Prattsreef has indicated to going longer and does not have a skimmer so that kind of screws up most of the opinions and no need to debate his tank parameter bc that is all I know about his tank, no skimmer and no slave water changes.

 

[fishman1069]

I'm not trying to steer you away from this site. I prefer this site over many others also. I'm also aware there are many ways of doing things.
Imo, water changes should be done at least biweekly. If you have a heavy demand on alk and calcium, I would say weekly. Even if your dosing alk and calc, It will help you replenish all those minute trace elements that help the corals grow and thrive. I'll be following the thread to see how it all works out for you. Good luck

 

[SteveZ15]

Weekly Water ChaNges Are A Chore So 30Mins A Week Is A Chore Then Why Do You Work 40Plus Hrs A Week Buy Coral That Dies And Get Mad. That Makes No Sense. If Thats The Case You Taking Longer To Make Money To Buy Sps Than To Do Water Changes.Some People Know Their Systems Enough To Get AWay With No Changes And Such.Thats Only A Few That Have Success.Most People Utilize Water Changes Because It Works. Im Not A Expert By Far And New To Reefing But I Change Water Once A Week And My Corals Are Fine And Growing Its Like A Refresher For Them Day After The Wc You See The Best Polyp Extension.. Its The Corals Way Of Saying Thanks Thats What I Needed

 

[d5332]

LOL I guess you took offense to the chore part huh

I dont replace sps that die, I tried and they all died.

nothing else in my tank dies but it's all lps, softies and inverts such as shrimp and linkia starfish fish, red and blue, snails and other bugs.

Yes, changing water weekly is a chore for me, hate it, if I can find a way to keep sps corals without having to do it great, had you read the entire thing you would have realized that I am not losing sleep over sps corals, everything in my tank is alive. sps grow into fascinating shapes and I would like some but I am not losing any sleep.

Weekly Water ChaNges Are A Chore So 30Mins A Week Is A Chore Then Why Do You Work 40Plus Hrs A Week Buy Coral That Dies And Get Mad. That Makes No Sense. If Thats The Case You Taking Longer To Make Money To Buy Sps Than To Do Water Changes.Some People Know Their Systems Enough To Get AWay With No Changes And Such.Thats Only A Few That Have Success.Most People Utilize Water Changes Because It Works. Im Not A Expert By Far And New To Reefing But I Change Water Once A Week And My Corals Are Fine And Growing Its Like A Refresher For Them Day After The Wc You See The Best Polyp Extension.. Its The Corals Way Of Saying Thanks Thats What I Needed

 

[SteveZ15]

Look Into Mirical Mud In Refugium. I Saw Some VidS ANd Read People Have Success With Mixed Reed With Sps And Have Drastically Reduce Water Changes.I Dont KNow Enough To Make A Good Opinion On That But It Might Be Worth Reading. One Thing Might Be.the Chemical FrOm Other Corals Bothering Sps And That Might Be Cause For More Frequent Water Changes.

 

[d5332]

I began reading about what you are mentioning but have not found an article that can really guide me as to which corals specifically so I can remove them but def need to add this to my list of possible issues.

Look Into Mirical Mud In Refugium. I Saw Some VidS ANd Read People Have Success With Mixed Reed With Sps And Have Drastically Reduce Water Changes.I Dont KNow Enough To Make A Good Opinion On That But It Might Be Worth Reading. One Thing Might Be.the Chemical FrOm Other Corals Bothering Sps And That Might Be Cause For More Frequent Water Changes.