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mikey3165

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im using oceanic and im running a 9.5 mag return and koralia 3 and koralia 4 and i have decent flow. my hydnorphora is doing great and it is in the same area as the effected corals and the hydnos polyps are blowing liek crazy so i know my flow isnt to bad but another issue on top of this is in my other corals i have no polyp extension except for my cap and hydno i think rick since you live like 5 min. away you should just come and look at my tank and give me your 2 cents
 

Master Shake

captain of tying knots
Location
Lawrence
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flow can be the issue, these things come from the ocean where tidal force and movement can not even come close to be replicated. for a bacterial infection soak in hydrogen peroxide. soak for about 2 minutes stirr in between that, rinse off and place back in i have saved several corals that way.
 

TOTAL AQUARIUMS

Chief of the Tang Police
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I think flow is a contributing factor but not the main cause. The corals didn't just wake up one day and decide the flow was no longer adequate, it was a slow and gradual change that would have caused symptoms to slowly manifest over time.

I have experienced a cycle much like what Rick mentioned with the seasons. The majority of my issues with corals have always started around spring/summer time. Colonies that were doing great or corals that had never had an issue suddenly have polyp extension or partial STN/RTN issues or in the extreme just die off completely. I could just be suffering from the same gas leak as Rick but I'd swear that seasonal changes effect the tank.

The other thing to consider is that corals are like dominoes in that if one goes sometimes it can take a few others with them. Chemical warfare can wreak havoc on a tank even in small doses before the water even has a chance to exit to the filtration and pass through carbon.
 
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Location
Brooklyn, NY
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I agree there may very well be seasonal issues, but I'm not sure what to attribute that too. More than coral illness I have noticed seasonal variation in Cyanobacteria outbreaks for sure.

Regarding flow--- low flow may not be the direct cause of coral disease and decline ,but it can very well be the stressor that sets off a chain reaction of bad things that result in coral mortality.
 

jejton

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Suffolk
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Maybe the seasonal fluctuation is more about our husbandry than something else..i.e. in spring and summer we are more likely to be spending free time outside than in the house fiddling with the tank and therefore dont notice changes as fast. just a guess.
 

NYreefNoob

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poughquag, ny
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my routine doesnt change, maybe a day or 2 different in day i do wc. but other then that it's the same daily and weekly, just having seen the quickness that it ran through a system and amount of corals wiped out is why i never felt it to be flow, seen tanks have 1 or 2 corals completely rtn or bleach and nothing else effected, reason for asking on salt might have been a bad batch as is know to happen with all the companies, so if all of you were using the same salt might have been a link to the problem
 

NYreefNoob

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poughquag, ny
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wasnt reffering to josh's, but another's tank was basically wiped of acro's in a week's time. josh's is declining slowly as where anothers was rapid, and anothers is slower. wasnt saying it is rtn but the appearance of a rtn.
 

ming

LE Coral Killer
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Flushing, NY
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Regarding flow--- low flow may not be the direct cause of coral disease and decline ,but it can very well be the stressor that sets off a chain reaction of bad things that result in coral mortality.

Hmm... I always thought of it as high flow helps blow off any unwanted coral disease.
I am experiencing some SPS STN/RTN off in my tank currently, and the areas with most flow are typically least or slowest to get affected.
 

lazibonez

Senior Newbie
Location
JH Queens
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Josh, u mentioned alot of people having sps crashes lately, especially frags they got from the swap. During the last swap, heat was the main problem, frags were browned , bleached when it got home, and being tiny frags made it worst, it could die if u touch it a few times. Some sps are so sensitive.

Could lack of flow cause RTN?.. I dont think so.. but it could if its already very stressed. Lack of flow would cause STN. There are too many variables involved, and there are still many unanswered mysteries in this hobby.

I find dips not effective when trying to save corals but people do it anyway in a desparate attempt. Most of the time u just have to cut and save the good part of the coral.

Rich asked u if your sps loses flesh from the base or else where from the stn or rtn. Thats a good question. Even tho you havent seen any red bugs on your sps.. maybe its too small to spot. Red bugs can cause so much stress on the sps that it will cause STN from the base. It can even cause RTN along with alk fluation.

Again, i am no expert, these are just my opinions.
 
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mikey3165

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cortlandt manor
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my infections arent actually starting from the base my mille has it starting between two branches right where they meet and my other acro has it starting on the front
 

TOTAL AQUARIUMS

Chief of the Tang Police
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I thought originally Josh was saying this was more spontaneous but if it's been a gradual change I would agree that flow is the main cause. Usually the inner branches and crevices are the first to bleach or TN if it's flow related. Pockets of detritus can build up and essentially strangle the tissue beneath them.

As for seasonal changes, I wouldn't even know where to start to try and figure out what part of it would cause the tank changes but I think it would be naive to dismiss it seeing as how corals exhibit a strong tie to environmental changes in the wild. For instance mass spawning events of numerous species simultaneously are linked with lunar cycles during certain seasons. Why wouldn't they be under the same influence in our tanks even if on a much reduced scale?
 

jejton

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Suffolk
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Because our tanks have taken the corals out of their natural environemnt and way from the cues that come with it - tide, salinity changes, temperature cycles, nutrient fluctuations, and especially lunar cycle. Thats why, for example, you often hear of captive spawnings happen after a large water change or a change in lighting schedule.
 

TOTAL AQUARIUMS

Chief of the Tang Police
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those are just accidental simulations of natural events, the cues are still real the time and place just aren't the same. Lunar cycle can still have an effect on your tank. The moon's effect on earth goes beyond the light it reflects, it exerts it's own gravitational pull on earth's surface which can vary by season and location on earth. Can you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, tell me that corals are in no way effected by this? Or that perhaps corals aren't in some way attuned naturally to these events? Spawning can also be triggered during periods of great stress as a last ditch effort to pass on ones genes. Polyp bailout is just one example of this mechanism. Fully developed polyps, not planulae, are ejected into the water column to land hopefully, in a safer location where they will grow and carry on the species. Spawning in the tank might not always be a good sign.

As for some support for the moon's effect on our tanks just look at Wayne Shang's tank. His clams mass spawn every 3-4 months just after a full moon... They must not have gotten the memo that they aren't supposed to respond to external stimuli.
 

Chris Jury

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Location
Kaneohe, HI
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Generally agreed with Randy above: I'd take a look at water flow. It's really just in the last few years that the larger scientific community (including me, for sure) has come to grips with the degree of importance that microbial communities living on/in corals play in their good health, and the degree to which we are almost completely ignorant of what is going on. With lower water flow the density of microbes increases, and the transport of things like O2 to coral tissue decreases. Most likely in many/most cases of disease and/or syndromes in corals microbes are mediating the disease/syndrome, but some other stressor (in nature e.g., high temperature anomolies, eutrophication, etc.) is the ultimate cause of decline. Without the stressor the microbial flora wouldn't become pathogenic to begin with.

Anyway, yes, try more flow, agreed :)

cj
 

jejton

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Suffolk
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Full moon is an external stimuli. The main trigger for most marine spawnings are either lunar cycle ( I've read alternatively that the tide - which is driven by gravity - and the actual light, which is why they usually happen on clear nights are usually, is the main one but I'll see if I can find anything more substantial ), temperature changes or nutrient fluxes ( which are due to one of the previous two as the plankton, which forms the base of the nutrient chain, are light and temperature dependent ). Stressors such as those that lead to polyp ejection are not cyclical events. They are adverse events for which many corals have developed this adaptation. So while I was not saying that our tanks are completely out of tune with the external ( external as in nature, not as in what we do to it ), the more immediate and probably bigger effect is from what we do to the tank. For instance, most people probably do not have very precise temperature control. Even with a chiller and heater, its probably that your tank fluctuates a degree or two with the seasons. Thats what happens in the tropics - only a couple of degrees change through the seasons - while in other regiions it can be greater. Salinity is another big one. In coastal regions, such as where many reefs are found, seasonal rains ( and the runoff caused by them ) cause slight salinity fluctuations, which in turn cause nutrient fluctuations, and so forth.
 

jejton

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Location
Suffolk
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As for Mr. Shang, I'm not familiar with his tank, or any experiments he might have done with clam spawning so I can't comment.
 

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